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Old
07-21-2011, 05:42 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No, it's not ridiculous. It's fact. Green is better defensively than Carle. However, Green is still pretty bad at defense, so that says a lot about Carle's defensive abilities. Green is at least willing to make or take hits, unlike Carle. He stands his ground, and at least TRIES to clear the net area. Carle is softer than a baby chinchilla.

Do you even watch Caps games? I catch most of them.
Green is not bad at defense, hes just a freak of nature at offense.

hes a good defender with unbelievable offensive abilities


(which makes him a great overall player)

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07-21-2011, 05:44 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Green is not bad at defense, hes just a freak of nature at offense.

hes a good defender with unbelievable offensive abilities


(which makes him a great overall player)
Ah, Green is pretty crappy defensively.

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07-21-2011, 05:46 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ah, Green is pretty crappy defensively.
oh, ok. I totally agree now.

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07-21-2011, 05:53 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Green is not bad at defense, hes just a freak of nature at offense.

hes a good defender with unbelievable offensive abilities


(which makes him a great overall player)
Uh...no. Green is pretty awful on defense.



Green does that sort of thing often. He will be too aggressive and get himself out of position or just get clowned. However, unlike Carle, he will never let someone just skate into the zone unchallenged. He also at least tries to keep players from standing right in front of the goalie to set up a screen or fish for rebounds, unlike Carle, who usually will just stand next to the opposing player and let him do whatever he wants.

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07-21-2011, 06:01 PM
  #80
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Really this shakes out as people unable to get past the fact that Matt Carle isn't physical.

It's his major flaw. That and the inexplicable pass or two in his own zone every game. It's what prevents him from being a front line defenseman.

However, go look at every major Flyers OT goal over the last two seasons and something strange will strike you. On almost all of them there is an absolutely incredible pass from Carle leading up to the goal (on occasion there are two absolutely incredible passes from him on the same damn play.)

He's much better defensively than anyone here will ever give him credit for, despite his flaws, and he provides an element that a guy like Coburn can't provide.

You look at the whole player and decide whether the positives outweigh the negatives. In my opinion, Carle is a net plus to the team. Some of you refuse to even acknowledge the positives that he brings to the table because he isn't physical.

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07-21-2011, 06:05 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Uh...no. Green is pretty awful on defense.



Green does that sort of thing often. He will be too aggressive and get himself out of position or just get clowned. However, unlike Carle, he will never let someone just skate into the zone unchallenged. He also at least tries to keep players from standing right in front of the goalie to set up a screen or fish for rebounds, unlike Carle, who usually will just stand next to the opposing player and let him do whatever he wants.
I think the title of that video explains what happened better than you did.

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07-21-2011, 06:08 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
I think the title of that video explains what happened better than you did.
So you refuse to believe video evidence AND stats?

What's the point of debating with you if you're just going to plug your ears and ignore anything inconvenient to your position?

You didn't address my point at all. If you watch Green routinely, you'll see he does that kind of crap often. However, he at least fights for the puck against the boards, is willing to take and give out hits, and is willing to at least prevent players from setting up a screen at will. A player doesn't need to be a physical force, but he should at least try. Look at Timonen; he isn't a big dude, and he doesnt lay people out like larger defenseman...but he's tenacious. Carle, not so much.

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07-21-2011, 06:10 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
Really this shakes out as people unable to get past the fact that Matt Carle isn't physical.

It's his major flaw. That and the inexplicable pass or two in his own zone every game. It's what prevents him from being a front line defenseman.

However, go look at every major Flyers OT goal over the last two seasons and something strange will strike you. On almost all of them there is an absolutely incredible pass from Carle leading up to the goal (on occasion there are two absolutely incredible passes from him on the same damn play.)

He's much better defensively than anyone here will ever give him credit for, despite his flaws, and he provides an element that a guy like Coburn can't provide.

You look at the whole player and decide whether the positives outweigh the negatives. In my opinion, Carle is a net plus to the team. Some of you refuse to even acknowledge the positives that he brings to the table because he isn't physical.
carle can be clutch for sure. Him and giroux make magic happen at times.

Coburn is> carle IMO but he is also signed to a fantastic contract. Not every player on the team can be signed to a fantastic contract, and if it takes 4-4.5 mil to get carle its worth it.

IMO i'd want carle/coburn/mesz all at 4mil thats a pretty solid core of dmen in the prime of their careers who all bring something very different to the table

Carle: passing
Coburn: Skating
Mesz: Hitting

(those are just each of their best skills)

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07-21-2011, 06:15 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So you refuse to believe video evidence AND stats?

What's the point of debating with you if you're just going to plug your ears and ignore anything inconvenient to your position?

You didn't address my point at all. If you watch Green routinely, you'll see he does that kind of crap often. However, he at least fights for the puck against the boards, is willing to take and give out hits, and is willing to at least prevent players from setting up a screen at will. A player doesn't need to be a physical force, but he should at least try. Look at Timonen; he isn't a big dude, and he doesnt lay people out like larger defenseman...but he's tenacious. Carle, not so much.
If you want to call that evidence, thats your prerogative i guess. But Im going to simply disagree, mike green is not bad at defense. He is a good defender.

Is he as good at defense as pronger or timonen? No. But those are two all-star shut-down defense-men, so thats not at all what im saying.

im not going to argue this further b/c its a waste of my time.

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07-21-2011, 06:16 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
If you want to call that evidence, thats your prerogative i guess. But Im going to simply disagree, mike green is not bad at defense. He is a good defender.

Is he as good at defense as pronger or timonen? No. But those are two all-star shut-down defense-men, so thats not at all what im saying.

im not going to argue this further b/c its a waste of my time.
I watch a lot of the Capitals. You can take my word for it, or you can watch a load of their games and develop an equally educated opinion.

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07-21-2011, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
If you want to call that evidence, thats your prerogative i guess. But Im going to simply disagree, mike green is not bad at defense. He is a good defender.

Is he as good at defense as pronger or timonen? No. But those are two all-star shut-down defense-men, so thats not at all what im saying.

im not going to argue this further b/c its a waste of my time.
I don't blame you, seeing as you've proven it's so valuable.

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07-21-2011, 06:20 PM
  #87
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I don't blame you, seeing as you've proven it's so valuable.
says the guy with 5 times my post count

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07-21-2011, 06:21 PM
  #88
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Now now, let's not have bickering.

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07-21-2011, 06:53 PM
  #89
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I've never seen such a polarizing figure like Matt Carle amongst Flyer fans. There's no middle ground with Carle - people either like him or hate him. Personally, I feel for Carle because he was a guy who came out of college and should have been someone who played a full year in the AHL. He performed admirably in his first season, but then for some unexplained reason, Ron Wilson just threw him under a bus and ruined him. He gets dealt to Tampa Bay and at the time, it was the Oren Koules/Len Barrie gong show there. Finally, Carle gets dealt to Philadelphia where there is a bit of structure and balance (and more important, some veteran mentors for him) and he gets crucified here by the fans.

Is he a superior defender? No, not at all. However, I think his defense has come a long way from when he first got here. I think having Laviolette and Kevin McCarthy work with him has been a blessing for his career. I still think this upcoming year is the year he puts it all together. With him and Coburn being up for contract renewal, I think Carle realizes just how important this year is to him. I'm expecting a monster year from Carle and there's no reason to believe he can't deliver.

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07-21-2011, 06:53 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
oh, ok. I totally agree now.
Your honestly the only person I've ever seen suggest that Green isn't crappy defensively.

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07-21-2011, 07:13 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
That's how peewees play hockey, yes. Real defensive zone coverage is just a bit simpler than "man-to-man".

It's also hilarious that you say the correct defensive zone coverage is man-to-man, considering Matt Carle doesn't mark one player in the whole video. He's late into his corner, turns the puck over by just throwing it up the boards, and follows the play too far up the boards and is late getting back to clear the rebound. He's not playing man-to-man. He just doesn't know where he's supposed to be.
Your description of Carle's play on that goal couldn't possibly be more inaccurate. Carle never had posession of the puck on the play. He wasn't late at all to the corner. He had his man the entire time, and after following his check to the circle, he disengaged and went back to the net area, exactly like he is supposed to do. Syvret meanwhile is a pylon and let's Kaleta skate right by him for an easy rebound goal. It's clear you are unaware of the subtleties of defensive zone coverage, or have a clear bias towards Carle


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
If the information isn't in the article, why post it? And why not just re-post it?

He's a decent defenseman considering his offensive abilities. However, if he's our #3 guy, we're in trouble.
The information to back up the point of the article is there. You just choose to ignore it. And it's just another peice of evidence to support Carle being a solid top 4 NHL defenseman.

There's a lot of teams that would love to have Carle as their # 3 guy.

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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
I agree with that, and that's pretty much the main consensus of the earlier BSH article I posted. Statistics showed that at that point of the season Mesz was statistically the best of the three, but also faced the more favorable match-ups. Carle had a good season without Pronger. Coburn failed to step up when given the opportunity to make a consistent impact on the team.

You're right, but a very good NHL defenseman should at the very least not make the same mistakes as an AHL defenseman. The Carle-Syvret pairing was a nightmare because of the play of both defenders.

Basically the article goes as far to say Matt Carle is "elite"(their words) but doesn't explain the criteria for the conclusion. They also don't even mention a huge sample that was ignored. It's a fluff piece.
The advanced statistics the writer posted is the criteria. I think that the adjective elite to describe Carle as an overall player is far too strong. But there were certain categories where Carle was in fact elite in measuring up to the rest of the League.

Comparing Carle to an AHL defenseman is jut flat out ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by mja View Post
Really this shakes out as people unable to get past the fact that Matt Carle isn't physical.

It's his major flaw. That and the inexplicable pass or two in his own zone every game. It's what prevents him from being a front line defenseman.

However, go look at every major Flyers OT goal over the last two seasons and something strange will strike you. On almost all of them there is an absolutely incredible pass from Carle leading up to the goal (on occasion there are two absolutely incredible passes from him on the same damn play.)

He's much better defensively than anyone here will ever give him credit for, despite his flaws, and he provides an element that a guy like Coburn can't provide.

You look at the whole player and decide whether the positives outweigh the negatives. In my opinion, Carle is a net plus to the team. Some of you refuse to even acknowledge the positives that he brings to the table because he isn't physical.
Exactly! Hit the nail on the head. But there's a lot of undeserved bias here against Carle

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07-21-2011, 07:17 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I've never seen such a polarizing figure like Matt Carle amongst Flyer fans. There's no middle ground with Carle - people either like him or hate him. Personally, I feel for Carle because he was a guy who came out of college and should have been someone who played a full year in the AHL. He performed admirably in his first season, but then for some unexplained reason, Ron Wilson just threw him under a bus and ruined him. He gets dealt to Tampa Bay and at the time, it was the Oren Koules/Len Barrie gong show there. Finally, Carle gets dealt to Philadelphia where there is a bit of structure and balance (and more important, some veteran mentors for him) and he gets crucified here by the fans.

Is he a superior defender? No, not at all. However, I think his defense has come a long way from when he first got here. I think having Laviolette and Kevin McCarthy work with him has been a blessing for his career. I still think this upcoming year is the year he puts it all together. With him and Coburn being up for contract renewal, I think Carle realizes just how important this year is to him. I'm expecting a monster year from Carle and there's no reason to believe he can't deliver.
If I had to choose sides I'd say that I like Carle, because I know what he is: a good top 4 PMD, not stellar defensively, but not nearly as bad as some people would like to believe.

I'm curious, in your opinion what constitutes a "monster year" from Matt Carle?

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07-21-2011, 08:16 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Your honestly the only person I've ever seen suggest that Green isn't crappy defensively.
well i guess thats proof you dont read what others write.

Ok lol, that was a bit harsh...but seriously, people assume that he's awful at D b/c he is so good at offense, but thats just not the case.

sure hes Elite in the offensive side (as far as defenders go) and hes no where near elite at defense, but hes good at defense. It doesnt help that the caps play such an offensive game, b/c there will be a LOT of odd-man rushes the other way, but he is a good defense-man.

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07-21-2011, 08:30 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
well i guess thats proof you dont read what others write.

Ok lol, that was a bit harsh...but seriously, people assume that he's awful at D b/c he is so good at offense, but thats just not the case.

sure hes Elite in the offensive side (as far as defenders go) and hes no where near elite at defense, but hes good at defense. It doesnt help that the caps play such an offensive game, b/c there will be a LOT of odd-man rushes the other way, but he is a good defense-man.
I don't assume he's bad at D because of his skills on offense.

I KNOW he's bad because I've watched a lot of Caps games through the last few years.

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07-21-2011, 08:57 PM
  #95
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Your description of Carle's play on that goal couldn't possibly be more inaccurate. Carle never had posession of the puck on the play. He wasn't late at all to the corner. He had his man the entire time, and after following his check to the circle, he disengaged and went back to the net area, exactly like he is supposed to do. Syvret meanwhile is a pylon and let's Kaleta skate right by him for an easy rebound goal. It's clear you are unaware of the subtleties of defensive zone coverage, or have a clear bias towards Carle
Part of being a great NHL defenseman isn't aimlessly following the puck. Carle left the front of the net to do essentially nothing, and was late getting back to the space he had occupied. His positioning was off and it showed. The more he moved his feet, the more out of position he took himself, until it was a foot race back to where he should have been.

Also, Syvret is trying to block the shot, the second defender should be trying to clear the front of the net.

Quote:
The information to back up the point of the article is there. You just choose to ignore it. And it's just another peice of evidence to support Carle being a solid top 4 NHL defenseman.
To the bolded: no it's not. It doesn't show Carle being "elite", it shows him having a good regular season compared to young NHL talent.

And of course he's a top 4 defender, that would have to be his role with any team. If you can pair him with a guy who can occupy a lot of space in the defensive zone and has a good offensive game, Carle's game as a puck-mover will flourish. He just doesn't have the ability to hold down a pairing on his own. I can't wait to see him paired with Pronger again because it will erase a lot of Carle's obvious shortcomings.

Quote:
There's a lot of teams that would love to have Carle as their # 3 guy.
There's probably a lot of teams that would be happy to have Versteeg on their second line. They're not contenders.

Quote:
The advanced statistics the writer posted is the criteria. I think that the adjective elite to describe Carle as an overall player is far too strong. But there were certain categories where Carle was in fact elite in measuring up to the rest of the League.
That's pretty arbitrary criteria, and doesn't acknowledge the awful playoffs. That should make up about a quarter of the entire sample size.

Quote:
Comparing Carle to an AHL defenseman is jut flat out ridiculous.
If they're both on the ice for goals, how are we not supposed to compare them? I don't think you picked up on it but I was calling Syvret an AHL defenseman, so that was the comparison.

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07-21-2011, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
sure hes Elite in the offensive side (as far as defenders go) and hes no where near elite at defense, but hes good at defense. It doesnt help that the caps play such an offensive game, b/c there will be a LOT of odd-man rushes the other way, but he is a good defense-man.
You're wrong

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07-21-2011, 10:37 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
says the guy with 5 times my post count
Oh, I know how much time I waste on the internet, and I'll be the first to admit it. I also know I'm not silly enough to openly claim my time is too valuable for someone before talking on something beyond "not uh," because, you know, it's a message board. Regardless what I say, it's just about impossible to not be doing something more productive.

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07-21-2011, 10:45 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
well i guess thats proof you dont read what others write.

Ok lol, that was a bit harsh...but seriously, people assume that he's awful at D b/c he is so good at offense, but thats just not the case.

sure hes Elite in the offensive side (as far as defenders go) and hes no where near elite at defense, but hes good at defense. It doesnt help that the caps play such an offensive game, b/c there will be a LOT of odd-man rushes the other way, but he is a good defense-man.
His offense has nothing to do with the criticism of his D. Do you see people ripping Lidstroms D? Niedermayer? Pronger (in his prime)? No, cuz they are/were very good defenders.

Green isn't good defensively. Very good player, and would welcome him here, but not for his D. I would agree he has gotten better, but that was starting from a low bar.

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07-21-2011, 11:43 PM
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This thread is still going? Matt Carle is 5th on our team in a list of desirable defensemen. Would anyone here seriously still take Carle over Downie or Carlson?

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07-22-2011, 12:04 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
My opinion is an informed opinion based on the facts and the information available. Give me some facts or provide a link to an article writen by a credible NHL analyst that supports your opinion on Carle's play. Or is "ask anyone here" all you've got?
All defenseman have occasional lapses. It when you weigh a players positive play over his negative play. And Carle's positive play far outweighs the mistakes he makes.
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Stats are only part of it. Show me some information from a credible source that substantiates your opinion. You con't do it because it doesn't exist. Simply ecauce you are incorrect.



There is no information that you can offer that supports your opinion that Carle is a poor defender. Because it's an uninformed opinion. You can not find any statistical data, or an opinion from a credible analyst that occurs with your opinion. You can tell me that I'm in the latter and in the group that doesn't know what I'm looking at until your blue in the face. They are hollow and meaningless words. All the information available says that you are incorrect. And you are incorrect.
Carle is actually pretty good as a smaller stature defenseman in using body position down low defensively. He is an outstanding puck mover. And another incorrect statement you've made is that I've failed to mention how Carle is a fine player in his own end. I've made numerous statements and provided numerouos facts over various threads supporting on how Carle is a fine player in his own end. And in fact, the article I posted to start this thread supports my opinion.

You obviously feel you need to qualify yourself with your opening statement, but your comments afterwords failed miserable to back that up. So just more hollow words.
It's pretty bold to declare your opinion to be informed, and write off everyones opinion as being uninformed. Bort is offering some pretty informative opinions on playing the game of hockey on defense, and you're ignoring it because of a blogger posting OFFENSIVE statistics.

Another look at Carle's on ice impact

I believe that shows that when Carle is on the ice, the team is very explosive offensively, while defensively, he's just about average.

Just out of curiosity, about how many of your near-400 posts have been arguing the usefulness of Matt Carle?

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