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What are you looking for in a forward? PICK 5 ATTRIBUTES!

View Poll Results: Pick 5 attributes...
Hockey Sense / Play-Making Ability 106 77.37%
Scoring Touch / Shot Power and Accuracy 104 75.91%
Skating / Speedn and Agility 120 87.59%
Two-Way Game / Defensive Responsibility 67 48.91%
Size / Strength on the Puck 65 47.45%
Toughness / Willingness to go to the Dirty Areas 66 48.18%
Grit / Relentless Activity on the Ice 63 45.99%
Leadership / Leading by Example 27 19.71%
Chemistry / Working well within a System 33 24.09%
Enigmatic Talent / Unpredictable but Exciting 8 5.84%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 137. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-21-2011, 11:34 PM
  #26
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I agree with you 100%.

I am surprised (not really ) that chemistry is not getting more votes. All we have to do is look back at last season and see the change in the effectiveness of Kostitsyn when he went from Plek's line to a wide variety of different lines.

Ditto for Moen being moved up to the Gomez line during the playoffs when it was obvious to everyone but Martin that he had absolutely NO CHEMISTRY with Gomez and Gionta.

Great thread and poll boomboommax.
The reason Martin put Moen on the Gomez is is because he wanted someone responsible defensively, which is what we are banking on to get far (defensively strong team). Although you know it probably won't create much offensively, you at least are putting a heavier body up front to possibly make room or, at least, help the two other smaller guys on the forecheck.

Martin didn't put Moen with Gomez because he thought they had this great chemistry that would lead to a hot scoring streak.
It's really funny to read some of what certain posters write about Martin like he's some moron who doesn't know jack about hockey, his players or his team.

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Hockey sense is THE attribute. Tons of big and speedy guys have tried but couldn't stick around just because of hockey sense. Obviously, if you are 3'2'' and 76lbs, chances are hockey sense won't be enough....So you need other attributes. But hockey sense is a clear #1 in my mind.
The reason why I didn't pick hockey sense is because if you have a good scoring touch + good chemistry, then you'll have plenty of it. You can argue that Sid the Kid has more hockey sense than Stamkos, but really, both are superstars, so I don't put that much importance on it at that stage.
Also, hockey sense on the poll was playmaking abilities, so I thought the OP simply meant being a playmaker, as opposed to a scorer. Not in the sense of vision.

To me it's skating, scoring (always been a scorer more than a passer myself), grit, toughness (I'll take grit and toughness over size any day of the week), and chemistry.

I think having those 5 skills would make the best player.


Last edited by Mike8: 07-22-2011 at 12:01 AM.
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07-21-2011, 11:50 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The reason Martin put Moen on the Gomez is is because he wanted someone responsible defensively, which is what we are banking on to get far (defensively strong team). Although you know it probably won't create much offensively, you at least are putting a heavier body up front to possibly make room or, at least, help the two other smaller guys on the forecheck.

Martin didn't put Moen with Gomez because he thought they had this great chemistry that would lead to a hot scoring streak.
It's really funny to read some of what certain posters write about Martin like he's some moron who doesn't know jack about hockey, his players or his team.
At the same time, between the Pleks line getting shut down duties as well as playing against the other teams' top D pair and Eller's success in a defensive role with offensively weak linemates, we needed that second line to be very offense oriented.

I understand that Patches' injury threw a wrench in the plans, but I don't think placing Moen on that line was what the team needed most.

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07-22-2011, 12:03 AM
  #28
Kriss E
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At the same time, between the Pleks line getting shut down duties as well as playing against the other teams' top D pair and Eller's success in a defensive role with offensively weak linemates, we needed that second line to be very offense oriented.

I understand that Patches' injury threw a wrench in the plans, but I don't think placing Moen on that line was what the team needed most.
The Gomez-Gionta duo was a huge liability for us defensively. They combined for -16. I can't blame Martin for trying to put a more reliable winger alongside them.
Darche actually played there more often than Moen.
You can argue that Martin should have opted to go with other wingers. He eventually did place DD there, and it seemed to work well until he got injured not too long after.

He could have perhaps placed Eller as a winger, but he really never looked comfortable on the wing during the season, and always seemed much better as a center. So, I can see why he didn't want to go through that route.

I mean, it's not like Martin was leaving out some very interesting options to go with guys like Darche or Moen.

What strikes me the most however, is that people will focus on this more than realize that despite his poor coaching decisions (according to them), we were just 1 goal from moving to the 2nd round. People should be noticing that perhaps he knows a little more about this game than they do, and where he's led us is actually good, not bad.

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07-22-2011, 12:23 AM
  #29
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1)Hockey Sense
2)Two-Way Game
3)Skating
4)Working well within a system
5)Scoring Touch

Closely followed by grit and toughness

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07-22-2011, 12:24 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The Gomez-Gionta duo was a huge liability for us defensively. They combined for -16. I can't blame Martin for trying to put a more reliable winger alongside them.
Darche actually played there more often than Moen.
You can argue that Martin should have opted to go with other wingers. He eventually did place DD there, and it seemed to work well until he got injured not too long after.

He could have perhaps placed Eller as a winger, but he really never looked comfortable on the wing during the season, and always seemed much better as a center. So, I can see why he didn't want to go through that route.

I mean, it's not like Martin was leaving out some very interesting options to go with guys like Darche or Moen.

What strikes me the most however, is that people will focus on this more than realize that despite his poor coaching decisions (according to them), we were just 1 goal from moving to the 2nd round. People should be noticing that perhaps he knows a little more about this game than they do, and where he's led us is actually good, not bad.
And that one goal could have come from either Gionta or Gomez if they had an offensively skilled forward playing with them. Love Moen for what he brings to the team but he is not top 6 material. Yet Martin had him in that role which hurt the productivity of that line (the chemistry thing).

The Martin fanboy "1 goal away" defense is laughable and overused.

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07-22-2011, 12:27 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The Gomez-Gionta duo was a huge liability for us defensively. They combined for -16. I can't blame Martin for trying to put a more reliable winger alongside them.
Darche actually played there more often than Moen.
You can argue that Martin should have opted to go with other wingers. He eventually did place DD there, and it seemed to work well until he got injured not too long after.

He could have perhaps placed Eller as a winger, but he really never looked comfortable on the wing during the season, and always seemed much better as a center. So, I can see why he didn't want to go through that route.

I mean, it's not like Martin was leaving out some very interesting options to go with guys like Darche or Moen.

What strikes me the most however, is that people will focus on this more than realize that despite his poor coaching decisions (according to them), we were just 1 goal from moving to the 2nd round. People should be noticing that perhaps he knows a little more about this game than they do, and where he's led us is actually good, not bad.
I never expected miracles from him, especially with a depleted lineup. However, there are a few things that I would have at least tried that he didn't even seem to consider. You could argue that the playoffs were not the time and place for that to happen, but it was also no secret that we had trouble scoring goals all year.

For example, knowing that Gomez's defensive play was obviously not up to par, it would have made sense to me to try him at LW with a more responsible centre in either Eller or DD. We would also have come away with an idea of how the kids handle 2nd line matchups and produce with 2nd line linemates.

Isn't putting Moen there essentially setting yourself up to lose? Sure you don't look like an idiot because Moen can hold his own defensively, but it's not playing to win either.

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07-22-2011, 12:34 AM
  #32
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I think the exact opposite.

You can work on you skating (power skating, training)
scoring touch (practice, shoot a lot of puck, training to have a faster shot)
grit and size (working on how to hit in practice)

hockey sense is just your feel for the game when certain situation happen.
I was just surfing the net and decided to look up "hockey sense" and to see if it is something a player is born with or if he can be trained to develop it.

And I found this interesting website.


The Hockey IntelliGym™ is a revolutionary, software-based training tool that helps players develop hockey sense – the perception and decision-making skills necessary to stay one step ahead of the puck and the game.

Congratulations, 16 IntelliGym-Trained NHL Draft Picks!
The Hockey IntelliGym team is honored to congratulate the 16 IntelliGym-trained hockey players that were selected on the 2011 NHL Draft: J.T. Miller (New York Rangers), Connor Murphy (Phoenix Coyotes), Tyler Biggs (Toronto Maple Leafs), Rocco Grimaldi (Florida Panthers), Adam Clendening (Chicago Blackhawks), John Gibson (Anaheim Ducks), Brandon Saad (Chicago Blackhawks), Matthew Nieto (San Jose Sharks), Michael Paliota (Chicago Blackhawks), Robbie Russo (New York Islanders), Reid Boucher (New Jersey Devils), Blake Pietila (New Jersey Devils), Travis Byod (Washington Capitals), Zac Laraza (Phoenix Coyotes), Nick Shore (Los Angeles Kings), Michael Mersch (Los Angeles Kings).

http://www.usahockeyintelligym.com/

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07-22-2011, 01:01 AM
  #33
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1. Enigmatic Talent
2. Scoring Touch
3. Skating
4. Strength on the puck
5. Two-way game(but not necessary)

Basically Kovalev.

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07-22-2011, 01:13 AM
  #34
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Healthy Peter Forsberg.
Imagine 1 sec if he'd been drafted by Montreal...


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07-22-2011, 08:54 AM
  #35
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Only reason chemistry isn't getting the nod is there are so many other quality choices and honestly I don't think chemistry should even be a factor. We're looking for what we like best in a player, not how good their chemistry would be with our linemates. You can't just say general chemistry, obviously some players are better at adjusting to their linemate's than others but ultimately chemistry boils down to who you're playing with not necessarily a skill the player has. Some players just aren't a good fit for certain lines/teams.

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07-22-2011, 08:55 AM
  #36
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Imagine 1 sec if he'd been drafted by Montreal...

He'd have been traded for Garth Murray and a 5th had we drafted him.

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07-22-2011, 09:31 AM
  #37
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And that one goal could have come from either Gionta or Gomez if they had an offensively skilled forward playing with them. Love Moen for what he brings to the team but he is not top 6 material. Yet Martin had him in that role which hurt the productivity of that line (the chemistry thing).

The Martin fanboy "1 goal away" defense is laughable and overused.
Sure, it could have. I can also say that putting someone more offensive could have lead that line to more bad defensive coverage. It holds as much water as your speculation.
And who exactly do you suggest we place there? AK was with Plek-Cammy. That left Eller, who was horrible on the wing and never once proved himself worthy of top 6 minutes, and Pouliot, that was scoreless in 27games.
So, who exactly was that offensively skilled player Martin could have placed there that for sure would have been a better option? And by that, it means he would surely have produced more.

It's always easy to find things to criticize the coach on when you clearly dislike him.

By the way, I think you can be mature enough to stop with the ''Fanboy'' ridiculous remarks. I've been posting long enough on these boards and I'm not a fanboy of anybody. I've criticized Martin plenty of times on many occasion. But saying ''everybody except Martin knew Moen had no chemistry with Gomez'' is idiotic, and it proves you don't even understand why he put him there in the first place.
During the season, I would agree, but not in the POs.

You can say the one goal comment is laughable and overused but it remains a fact. Having come so close without a top 6, with very little (if any) scoring depth, without two key Dman including our best, is good.
But it's always easier to just point the finger at the coach and gm, something you seem to enjoy doing.

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Originally Posted by Playmaker09 View Post
I never expected miracles from him, especially with a depleted lineup. However, there are a few things that I would have at least tried that he didn't even seem to consider. You could argue that the playoffs were not the time and place for that to happen, but it was also no secret that we had trouble scoring goals all year.

For example, knowing that Gomez's defensive play was obviously not up to par, it would have made sense to me to try him at LW with a more responsible centre in either Eller or DD. We would also have come away with an idea of how the kids handle 2nd line matchups and produce with 2nd line linemates.

Isn't putting Moen there essentially setting yourself up to lose? Sure you don't look like an idiot because Moen can hold his own defensively, but it's not playing to win either.
Well, I think that would be a horrible decision. Gomez has never played on the wing.
You remember how weak Eller looked on the wing? Well, imagine how Gomez would have looked there.
Not sure how we're setting ourselves up to lose by placing Moen there. We did it throughout the season and still won games. Gionta and Gomez were costing us games from their poor defensive coverage so it's perfectly understandable why he'd go with a more defensive player there.
You can agree or disagree with his style, but he's a defensive minded coach. With the lack of depth we had, the only real option would have been Pouliot. But as I mentioned before, he was scoreless in 27.


Btw, all this insistence on Moen but Darche played there more than him.

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07-22-2011, 09:33 AM
  #38
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Only reason chemistry isn't getting the nod is there are so many other quality choices and honestly I don't think chemistry should even be a factor. We're looking for what we like best in a player, not how good their chemistry would be with our linemates. You can't just say general chemistry, obviously some players are better at adjusting to their linemate's than others but ultimately chemistry boils down to who you're playing with not necessarily a skill the player has. Some players just aren't a good fit for certain lines/teams.
Chemistry, according to the OP, is also the ability to adapt well to a system. That's a skill worthy of having. If you have a player that not only can play just about the same with anybody but do it in any system, then you have yourself a very, very good player.

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07-22-2011, 09:53 AM
  #39
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You guys are missing a big one - determination. A clutch player is a leader who'll put the team on his back when it most counts. My perfect forward scores the most important goals.

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07-22-2011, 10:01 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Fatguy266 View Post
1)Hockey Sense
2)Two-Way Game
3)Skating
4)Working well within a system
5)Scoring Touch

Closely followed by grit and toughness
Playing a strong defensive game is about the easiest skill that can be taught.

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07-22-2011, 10:01 AM
  #41
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Guys like Getzlaf or Iginla are pretty much the perfect forwards imo.

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07-22-2011, 10:28 AM
  #42
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The reason Martin put Moen on the Gomez is is because he wanted someone responsible defensively, which is what we are banking on to get far (defensively strong team). Although you know it probably won't create much offensively, you at least are putting a heavier body up front to possibly make room or, at least, help the two other smaller guys on the forecheck.

Martin didn't put Moen with Gomez because he thought they had this great chemistry that would lead to a hot scoring streak.
It's really funny to read some of what certain posters write about Martin like he's some moron who doesn't know jack about hockey, his players or his team.



The reason why I didn't pick hockey sense is because if you have a good scoring touch + good chemistry, then you'll have plenty of it. You can argue that Sid the Kid has more hockey sense than Stamkos, but really, both are superstars, so I don't put that much importance on it at that stage.
Also, hockey sense on the poll was playmaking abilities, so I thought the OP simply meant being a playmaker, as opposed to a scorer. Not in the sense of vision.

To me it's skating, scoring (always been a scorer more than a passer myself), grit, toughness (I'll take grit and toughness over size any day of the week), and chemistry.

I think having those 5 skills would make the best player.

Hockey sense is what separates all the great junior scorers from those in the NHL, guys like Rob Brown had a boat load of talent, but lacked hockey sense. 212 points in 63 games for Kamloops. This happens all the time and their game doesn't translate to the NHL. He had the talent and skill to over come other kids, but when he got to the bigs it wasn't enough. He had a few good years playing with Super Mario, but not much else.


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07-22-2011, 10:31 AM
  #43
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The Gomez-Gionta duo was a huge liability for us defensively. They combined for -16. I can't blame Martin for trying to put a more reliable winger alongside them.
Darche actually played there more often than Moen.
You can argue that Martin should have opted to go with other wingers. He eventually did place DD there, and it seemed to work well until he got injured not too long after.

He could have perhaps placed Eller as a winger, but he really never looked comfortable on the wing during the season, and always seemed much better as a center. So, I can see why he didn't want to go through that route.

I mean, it's not like Martin was leaving out some very interesting options to go with guys like Darche or Moen.

What strikes me the most however, is that people will focus on this more than realize that despite his poor coaching decisions (according to them), we were just 1 goal from moving to the 2nd round. People should be noticing that perhaps he knows a little more about this game than they do, and where he's led us is actually good, not bad.
Also they weren't a huge liability defensively, they just didn't score enough to get those +, Moen was put on that line to help create space for the two smaller guys.

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07-22-2011, 10:41 AM
  #44
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Chemistry, according to the OP, is also the ability to adapt well to a system. That's a skill worthy of having. If you have a player that not only can play just about the same with anybody but do it in any system, then you have yourself a very, very good player.
Yeah but how many times have we seen a player adapt well to one system but not another. Very few players can adapt to any and all systems. Obviously that's an asset but even then nobody can have chemistry with every player in the league save maybe Crosby.

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07-22-2011, 10:52 AM
  #45
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Guys like Getzlaf or Iginla are pretty much the perfect forwards imo.
Not necessarily, they don't have top end speed.

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07-22-2011, 11:22 AM
  #46
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Hockey sense is what separates all the great junior scorers from those in the NHL, guys like Rob Brown had a boat load of talent, but lacked hockey sense. 212 points in 63 games for Kamloops. This happens all the time and their game doesn't translate to the NHL. He had the talent and skill to over come other kids, but when he got to the bigs it wasn't enough. He had a few good years playing with Super Mario, but not much else.
I assumed we were talking about NHL caliber players, not juniors.

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07-22-2011, 11:28 AM
  #47
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Yeah but how many times have we seen a player adapt well to one system but not another. Very few players can adapt to any and all systems. Obviously that's an asset but even then nobody can have chemistry with every player in the league save maybe Crosby.
That's precisely why I chose that attribute.
If you have this ability, then you're pretty much a superstar a la Crosby, capable of playing with anybody, even role players, on any team.
If your capable of this, then obviously, you have a ton of hockey sense.

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07-22-2011, 12:32 PM
  #48
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I assumed we were talking about NHL caliber players, not juniors.
Well where do you think those NHL players come from? What do you think enabled Gretzky to lap the competition year in and year out aside from determination and hockey sense? He wasn't the fastest skater, he didn't have the hardest shot, he wasn't the best on breakaways, he couldn't out stick handle many guys, but he did anticipate and read the play like no one else. All the greats share the same thing. Lemieux, Orr ect all had great hockey sense, mind you a step down from Gretzky imo.

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07-22-2011, 12:43 PM
  #49
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Well where do you think those NHL players come from? What do you think enabled Gretzky to lap the competition year in and year out aside from determination and hockey sense? He wasn't the fastest skater, he didn't have the hardest shot, he wasn't the best on breakaways, he couldn't out stick handle many guys, but he did anticipate and read the play like no one else. All the greats share the same thing. Lemieux, Orr ect all had great hockey sense, mind you a step down from Gretzky imo.
Not quite sure what we're arguing about here. I also disagree on Lemieux being a step down from Gretzky.

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07-22-2011, 12:49 PM
  #50
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It holds as much water as your speculation.
And who exactly do you suggest we place there? AK was with Plek-Cammy. That left Eller, who was horrible on the wing and never once proved himself worthy of top 6 minutes, and Pouliot, that was scoreless in 27games.
So, who exactly was that offensively skilled player Martin could have placed there that for sure would have been a better option? And by that, it means he would surely have produced more.
Darche. In Game 1, Gionta had two goals, Gomez had two assists and Darche was +2. In Game 2, that line was -1, even though Darche had a PP goal.

Fast forward to Game 4 with Moen playing on the line with Gionta and Gomez. Moen was a turnover machine including his mishandling of the pass to him that led to Ryder's game winning goal. With Moen on that line, Gomez and Gionta were -3, their worst performance of the playoffs.

You like to mention the "one goal" over and over again as it related to Game 7. Game 4, however, was the pivotal game that gave Boston all the momentum that they needed. The Bruins would not have overcome a 3 games to 1 deficit.

Darche played well with Gionta and Gomez. Moen played horrible with them. Yet Moen..................which was a coaching decision by Martin.........stayed on that line, even after the Game 4 fiasco.

Moen on that line was a FAIL all season. And it was the biggest Martin FAIL when he returned to that combo in the playoffs.

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