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The Official Scott Gomez Thread part Cuatro - Rancho Relaxo Edition

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Old
07-22-2011, 02:47 PM
  #51
Zorba
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[QUOTE=bcv;35281521]
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I forgot that the cap hit indicated the play on the ice.

59pts puts him 50th in the league.. YEAH MEDIOCRE!
Im not talking about Plels, im saying Gomez had 59 pts and that is mediocre for a guy who makes what he does. Like it or not cap hit vs performance is how mediocrity is measure now a days. Gomez at his salary should be putting up at least 75 pts. Obviously there are others who make a lot IE Lecavalier and Gaborik and they too are mediocre compared to their salaries

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07-22-2011, 02:48 PM
  #52
Em Ancien
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There it is

As I said, defense is one of the few things that are consistent for players. So he pretty much coasted all year long.

I don't know a player that is solid defensively that plays this bad.

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07-22-2011, 02:52 PM
  #53
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And I really struggle to understand how a year's performance can be so easily cast aside.

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07-22-2011, 02:53 PM
  #54
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It will be interesting to see what Gomez does next season, I don't get why some people are saying that if he has another awful season he'll be moved at the deadline. Who exactly is going to trade for him if he's playing at another sub 40 clip?

I think he'll have 65 points next year, he's gonna come into camp with a chip on his shoulder and he's going to have some great linemates and not only that but Markov has only played for 52 games in the 2 seasons Gomez has been around.

2 slick playmaking guys like that on the PP with options like Subban, Pacioretty, Gionta, Cole and Cammalleri and he could really make a killing on the PP.

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07-22-2011, 02:53 PM
  #55
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I'm done arguing. I present facts (not opinions, facts proved by stats) and you simply say he is a scrubs without any arguments backing up your facts. You say he had the worst +-/60, well it's hard to put +s when you don't score. He had alot of chances but his line couldn't finish the job. Like I said, he allowed the same amount of goals last year as Plekanec. If we look at Gomez average point (roughly 55pts) that would put him roughly even.

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07-22-2011, 02:59 PM
  #56
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I'm done arguing. I present facts (not opinions, facts proved by stats) and you simply say he is a scrubs without any arguments backing up your facts. You say he had the worst +-/60, well it's hard to put +s when you don't score. He had alot of chances but his line couldn't finish the job. Like I said, he allowed the same amount of goals last year as Plekanec. If we look at Gomez average point (roughly 55pts) that would put him roughly even.
I think most people appreciate your opinion and your stats but one point I have to argue is when you say his line couldnt finish chances. Gionta started playing better when he was put with Pleks. Gomez should have more than 7 goals. Thats not his linemates fault. Bottom line, he need to fine a way to put up points no matter what

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07-22-2011, 02:59 PM
  #57
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I sense a pattern! Fiesta, siesta... I suggest for the thread title, we add AGRESTA aka Sour Grapes

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07-22-2011, 03:00 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
And I really struggle to understand how a year's performance can be so easily cast aside.
Nobody "cast aside" last year performances: we are just trying to explain it.

When you look at his microstats, the explanation that appears isn't that Gomez markedly slowed down. He's still producing more or less as many chances as he used to. But for some reason, his shot percentage and those of his teammates were noticeably lower last year than their respective average. And since shot percentage is a statistic that tend to vary widely for no other reason than pure randomness, there is some justified expectation that he and his wingers will probably bounce back.

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07-22-2011, 03:02 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by bcv View Post
I'm done arguing. I present facts (not opinions, facts proved by stats) and you simply say he is a scrubs without any arguments backing up your facts. You say he had the worst +-/60, well it's hard to put +s when you don't score. He had alot of chances but his line couldn't finish the job. Like I said, he allowed the same amount of goals last year as Plekanec. If we look at Gomez average point (roughly 55pts) that would put him roughly even.
Your argument is that he's solid defensively. He was playing mostly against third liners and managed the worst +/- per 60.

Obviously Gomez didn't play well last year, but to cast off a season like that is a laughable argument.

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07-22-2011, 03:08 PM
  #60
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His ES play is excellent. If he was a tad more productive offensively and on the PP, he'd be a stud.
If, if, if...

I'm not saying the guy is a bad player. I like him a lot, but he's a mediocre 1st liner. Who is he better than on this list?

Toews
Crosby
Datsyuk
Thornton
Sedin
Malkin
Kopitar
Zetterberg
B Richards
M Richards
Stamkos
Getzlaff
Staal
Backstrom

Those guys are all head and shoulders better.

Then you've got guys like Spezza, Tavares, Roy, Kesler, Giroux, Carter, Lecavalier.... and others who are at least as good or better in his class.

So he's in the bottom half at least and probably the bottom third of 1st line centers in the league

It doesn't mean he's a bad player, he's just not a great 1st line center.

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07-22-2011, 03:09 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Nobody "cast aside" last year performances: we are just trying to explain it.

When you look at his microstats, the explanation that appears isn't that Gomez markedly slowed down. He's still producing more or less as many chances as he used to. But for some reason, his shot percentage and those of his teammates were noticeably lower last year than their respective average. And since shot percentage is a statistic that tend to vary widely for no other reason than pure randomness, there is some justified expectation that he and his wingers will probably bounce back.
Doesn't explain the lack of defense.

Players can have down years, Pleks dropped 13 points, but still managed the second best +/- per 60 amongst forwards, despite playing the toughest assignment.

Just about every top 6 player had down years, yet they all ended up with a positive +/- per 60. Only Gomez fell below all the 3rd and 4th liners, which includes a bunch of rookies and offensively inept players.

When it came to playing without the puck, Gomez mailed it in. Simple as that. That's pathetic.

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07-22-2011, 03:10 PM
  #62
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I neber meant Pleks is mediocre. I meant Gomez. Pleks is an amazing 2 way centre who would get more points if our second line centre didnt have 38 pts. Too clarify Gomez is mediocre, not Plekanec

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07-22-2011, 03:11 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If, if, if...

I'm not saying the guy is a bad player. I like him a lot, but he's a mediocre 1st liner. Who is he better than on this list?

Toews
Crosby
Datsyuk
Thornton
Sedin
Malkin
Kopitar
Zetterberg
B Richards
M Richards
Stamkos
Getzlaff
Staal
Backstrom

Those guys are all head and shoulders better.

Then you've got guys like Spezza, Tavares, Roy, Kesler, Giroux, Carter, Lecavalier.... and others who are at least as good or better in his class.

So he's in the bottom half at least and probably the bottom third of 1st line centers in the league

It doesn't mean he's a bad player, he's just not a great 1st line center.
He's definately a better player than Tavares and Lecavalier at the moment. Maybe on the same level as Spezza. You're severely underrating defensive play.

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07-22-2011, 03:12 PM
  #64
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Your argument is that he's solid defensively. He was playing mostly against third liners and managed the worst +/- per 60.
Plus-minus is not a defensive stat. Stop trying to use it as one.

Defense is only one component of plus-minus. What you're doing is not unlike arguing that Adam Oates was a good goal-scorer in 2000-2001 because he had 82 points.

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07-22-2011, 03:14 PM
  #65
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[QUOTE=Em Ancien;35282459]He's definately a better player than Tavares and Lecavalier at the moment. Maybe on the same level as Spezza. You're severely underrating defensive play.[/QUOT

Plekanec is so underrated IMO. He is far and away are best offensive player and he is probably our best checking forward as well

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07-22-2011, 03:14 PM
  #66
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Plus-minus is not a defensive stat. Stop trying to use it as one.

Defense is only one component of plus-minus. What you're doing is not unlike arguing that Adam Oates was a good goal-scorer in 2000-2001 because he had 82 points.
He ended up with 44 goals against (worst amongst forwards). Against mostly third liners. 4th worst GAON per 60, with Pleks being the only top 6 ahead of him, but with the toughest job on D. Fair enough?

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07-22-2011, 03:17 PM
  #67
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He's definately a better player than Tavares and Lecavalier at the moment. Maybe on the same level as Spezza. You're severely underrating defensive play.
He's definitely better than Spezza defensively, but he's not close to him offensively. That's why I listed Spezza in tier 2.

Point is that there are at least 14 or 15 who are easily better and a bunch of others who are as good or better. Pleks is probably somewhere around 20th in the league and that might even be generous.

As far as Pleks being our best forward goes... that's not really saying much.

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Old
07-22-2011, 03:18 PM
  #68
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He's definitely better than Spezza defensively, but he's not close to him offensively. That's why I listed Spezza in tier 2.

Point is that there are at least 14 or 15 who are easily better and a bunch of others who are as good or better. Pleks is probably somewhere around 20th in the league and that might even be generous.
What's your point?

How is being the 20th best center mean he's not solid?

I even said I wasn't sure he's a bonafide #1.

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07-22-2011, 03:20 PM
  #69
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He ended up with 44 goals against. Against mostly third liners. Fair enough?
Yes, but then you treat that number as if it were somehow awful, and it's not.

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07-22-2011, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
He's definately a better player than Tavares and Lecavalier at the moment. Maybe on the same level as Spezza. You're severely underrating defensive play.
Offensively, Plekanec is top-30 for centers, but not top-15.

However, what happens when you factor in cap hit and defensive acumen?

Also, there are a lot of excuses for Gomez flying around this forum. The same excuses that lead one to say "Gomez will have 60 points next year" should also lead one to say "Plekanec will have 30 goals and 80 points next year". Cammalleri was injured. Markov was injured. Erik Cole is really good. All the people assuming Gomez will bounce back have to assume Gomez will thus draw tougher opposition.

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07-22-2011, 03:23 PM
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All the people assuming Gomez will bounce back have to assume Gomez will thus draw tougher opposition.
Why would he? Unless some of the tough minutes are offloaded from Plekanec. Which I wouldn't be adverse to.

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07-22-2011, 03:26 PM
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Why would he? Unless some of the tough minutes are offloaded from Plekanec. Which I wouldn't be adverse to.
If Gomez bounces back, he will have stretches where he is the number 1 center, and in those stretches Martin will play him that way. That means that Plekanec's slumps won't be as low.

Like the second half of the 2009-2010 season.

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07-22-2011, 03:26 PM
  #73
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Yes, but then you treat that number as if it were somehow awful, and it's not.
In the team's context, they are. He was one of the least efficient players on the team.

Not just the top 6.

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07-22-2011, 03:29 PM
  #74
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In the team's context, they are. He was one of the least efficient players on the team.
He was smack dab in the middle of the club for GA per icetime, a bit ahead of Plekanec, a bit behind Eller and Gionta.

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07-22-2011, 03:31 PM
  #75
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He ended up with 44 goals against (worst amongst forwards). Against mostly third liners. 4th worst GAON per 60, with Pleks being the only top 6 ahead of him, but with the toughest job on D. Fair enough?
Moen and Halpern high QoC stats are mainly from specific defensive assignments and spot duty on the top two lines as wingers. Gomez's .484 Corsi RelQoC is pretty standard among players on the second matchup unit and its fair to say that is what he was sent out against most games.

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