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Old
07-22-2011, 03:06 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
His offense has nothing to do with the criticism of his D. Do you see people ripping Lidstroms D? Niedermayer? Pronger (in his prime)? No, cuz they are/were very good defenders.

Green isn't good defensively. Very good player, and would welcome him here, but not for his D. I would agree he has gotten better, but that was starting from a low bar.
Totally agree. Whats amazing is that Green is probably 100% better than when he first entered the league, and he's still worse defensively than Matt Carle. That says allot.

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07-22-2011, 08:09 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
And it's just another peice of evidence to support Carle being a solid top 4 NHL defenseman.
I might be wrong here, but I think most posters on this board views Carle as a top 4 dman. He is that mostly because he is a great passer of the puck, and has some nice offensive instincts. He isn't more than a #4 though because he lacks (quite a lot) in other parts of the game. He isn't quite good enough along the boards and shies away from contact a bit too much. His skating hasn't been the best, but it has improved.

I think what garners Carle a lot of the criticism he gets here is that we've been waiting for him and Coburn to take the next step for a while now (especially Coburn) and show that they can be the leader on their pairing. So far, they haven't shown that.

Carle is never gonna be a physical player, but he really needs to improve his stick work in defensive play. He won't likely get to the level of Lidström (or Timonen to take a little more realistic example), but he can sure improve here.





Oh, and the Mike Green debate. In his defense (heh), he has often been paired with Jeff Schultz who can be playing either as if he's one of the best shut-down dmen in the league, or as if he should be demoted to the ECHL.

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07-22-2011, 01:52 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
Part of being a great NHL defenseman isn't aimlessly following the puck. Carle left the front of the net to do essentially nothing, and was late getting back to the space he had occupied. His positioning was off and it showed. The more he moved his feet, the more out of position he took himself, until it was a foot race back to where he should have been.

Also, Syvret is trying to block the shot, the second defender should be trying to clear the front of the net.
You simply don't understand defensive zone coverage and what's supposed to happen. Carle played his man to the circle area, which he is supposed to do. He wasn't out of position. Syvret let Kaleta skate right by him unchallenged to the front of the net. Kaleta was Syvret's man all the way.


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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
To the bolded: no it's not. It doesn't show Carle being "elite", it shows him having a good regular season compared to young NHL talent.

And of course he's a top 4 defender, that would have to be his role with any team. If you can pair him with a guy who can occupy a lot of space in the defensive zone and has a good offensive game, Carle's game as a puck-mover will flourish. He just doesn't have the ability to hold down a pairing on his own. I can't wait to see him paired with Pronger again because it will erase a lot of Carle's obvious shortcomings.
This will be the third time now that I have posted that Carle isn't elite. And I disagree with the writers characterization that Carle is elite as an all around player. However there were certain areas of his game that were in fact elite last year among defenseman.

There are some defenseman that make players around them better such as Pronger because when he's healthy, he can be dominant. But if you understand defenseman play, so much of it is individual play. And in a lot of circumstances, a defenseman has to make plays regardless of who his partner is.
Carle is a solid all around defenseman. He is sound in all areas. But he's no different than any other player that has strengths to his game, and areas that are weaker. That doesn't change the fact that Carle is a reliable defender in his own end.


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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
There's probably a lot of teams that would be happy to have Versteeg on their second line. They're not contenders.
This statement makes zero sense. How do you make a team that's not a contender, a contender? By upgrading certain positions such as defense with quality players like Carle. The Flyers attempt to contend every Season. They traded for Carle. Must be a reason why.


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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
That's pretty arbitrary criteria, and doesn't acknowledge the awful playoffs. That should make up about a quarter of the entire sample size.
It's not arbitrary. The playoffs were 11 games. And Carle's play was definitely subpar along with the rest of the team. But his "awful" play is blown out of proportion. He has just been chosen as one of the scapegoats.


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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
If they're both on the ice for goals, how are we not supposed to compare them? I don't think you picked up on it but I was calling Syvret an AHL defenseman, so that was the comparison.
I misread that then. I agree, Syvret is an AHL defenseman.

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Originally Posted by DumpyD View Post
This thread is still going? Matt Carle is 5th on our team in a list of desirable defensemen. Would anyone here seriously still take Carle over Downie or Carlson?
Over Downie, absolutely. I like Carlson, and he could be the better player down the road. We'll see.

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It's pretty bold to declare your opinion to be informed, and write off everyones opinion as being uninformed. Bort is offering some pretty informative opinions on playing the game of hockey on defense, and you're ignoring it because of a blogger posting OFFENSIVE statistics.

Another look at Carle's on ice impact

I believe that shows that when Carle is on the ice, the team is very explosive offensively, while defensively, he's just about average.

Just out of curiosity, about how many of your near-400 posts have been arguing the usefulness of Matt Carle?
In terms of his description of the Kaleta goal, yes he is uninformed on who to place blame on and doesn't understand defensive zone play. I agree that Carle is average defensively. I prefer the term reliable. He is much better defensively than many give him credit for calling him poor defensively.

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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
I might be wrong here, but I think most posters on this board views Carle as a top 4 dman. He is that mostly because he is a great passer of the puck, and has some nice offensive instincts. He isn't more than a #4 though because he lacks (quite a lot) in other parts of the game. He isn't quite good enough along the boards and shies away from contact a bit too much. His skating hasn't been the best, but it has improved.
Carle shows no signs of shying away from contact, and for a smaller player, wins his share of puck battles down low. He is solid positionally and has a good stick. He doesn't mash players up against the boards and the glass, or stand people up at the blueline with a big hit, so he's not liked.

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I think what garners Carle a lot of the criticism he gets here is that we've been waiting for him and Coburn to take the next step for a while now (especially Coburn) and show that they can be the leader on their pairing. So far, they haven't shown that.
One of the biggest issues with a fanbase. Unrealistic expectations and impatience. Coburn and Carle are just coming into their prime as NHL defenseman.

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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Carle is never gonna be a physical player, but he really needs to improve his stick work in defensive play. He won't likely get to the level of Lidström (or Timonen to take a little more realistic example), but he can sure improve here.

Like any player, there is always room for improvement. But Carle has a very good stick defensively.

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07-22-2011, 02:46 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
There are some defenseman that make players around them better such as Pronger because when he's healthy, he can be dominant. But if you understand defenseman play, so much of it is individual play. And in a lot of circumstances, a defenseman has to make plays regardless of who his partner is.
Carle is a solid all around defenseman. He is sound in all areas. But he's no different than any other player that has strengths to his game, and areas that are weaker. That doesn't change the fact that Carle is a reliable defender in his own end.

Carle shows no signs of shying away from contact, and for a smaller player, wins his share of puck battles down low. He is solid positionally and has a good stick. He doesn't mash players up against the boards and the glass, or stand people up at the blueline with a big hit, so he's not liked.

One of the biggest issues with a fanbase. Unrealistic expectations and impatience. Coburn and Carle are just coming into their prime as NHL defenseman.

Like any player, there is always room for improvement. But Carle has a very good stick defensively.
In the end, you are always alone. I obviously never played at a level even remotely close to the NHL, but my experience is that the partner you have as a defender has a tremendous impact on your own play. It doesn't necessarily mean that the better the partner the better you will be. Some guys you find that chemistry with and some you don't.

I'm gonna be anecdotal here, so bare with me. Here in Sweden we start out in youth hockey and then hopefully progress good enough to play for the senior team or however you wish to describe it. Well, when I made the jump from juniors to playing against men I was 17, and I did it together with a guy who I had played together with as a d pair for pretty much four straight years. At first the coach had us split up thinking naturally that it would make it easier for us to adapt. After two games he put us together however. It didn't matter that much that we could be outmuscled at times, we sort of instinctively knew where we had each other on the ice and made things easier for us than they would have been had we played with better, more experienced, players.

Who your partner is out on the ice definitely impacts your play. Just look at Coburn who has struggled almost any time he hasn't had Timonen or Hatcher by his side.



Carle is definitely reluctant to take a hit to make a play. Look, you say it yourself that he is a defenseman with some strengths and some weaknesses, but anytime anyone points to one of those weaknesses you come charging in full attack mode more or less.


As for us as fans being unrealistic, yes, I kind of agree with that. Coburn's play in 07-08 promised so much though, it's kind of hard to think that he'll be "just" a stay-at-home dman who will give us 20-something points/year.

If they could at least form a solid second pairing together, but that was a trainwreck when that was attempted.

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07-22-2011, 05:59 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
In the end, you are always alone. I obviously never played at a level even remotely close to the NHL, but my experience is that the partner you have as a defender has a tremendous impact on your own play. It doesn't necessarily mean that the better the partner the better you will be. Some guys you find that chemistry with and some you don't.
I totally agree with this. And I'll also add that a good partner can't make a bad defenseman a good one. Each defenseman in a D pairing stands on his own merits and his own play.

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Carle is definitely reluctant to take a hit to make a play. Look, you say it yourself that he is a defenseman with some strengths and some weaknesses, but anytime anyone points to one of those weaknesses you come charging in full attack mode more or less.
I disagree completely. It's completely innacurate to state that Carle is relectant to take a hit. You simply can't play at the level he does as a defender if your reluctant to take a hit.
I come out in full attack mode when innacurate statements are made such as this one. Or silly comparisons are made such as the one made with Mike Green earlier. Where he was used simply because Green has a reputation among Flyers fans as being weak defensively, so he was innacurately used to try and point out that Carle is weak in his own end, which is simply not the case.

Right now, Carle's biggest weaknesses last year were his inability to finish on offensive goal scoring chances, and his production on the PP. The latter also being a function of the entire team struggling last Season on the PP, and Carle being a part of that.

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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
As for us as fans being unrealistic, yes, I kind of agree with that. Coburn's play in 07-08 promised so much though, it's kind of hard to think that he'll be "just" a stay-at-home dman who will give us 20-something points/year.

If they could at least form a solid second pairing together, but that was a trainwreck when that was attempted.
Both Carle and Coburn, as well as Meszaros are all relatively young still as NHL defenseman. There is going to ups and downs. That's normal. All 3 players are rounding out into quality players. And remember, it's about the mix.

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07-22-2011, 06:04 PM
  #106
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Apparently Matt Carle is flawless on defense. It's amazing they haven't renamed the Norris yet.

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07-22-2011, 06:11 PM
  #107
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Really is........Guess the defensive turnovers don't count for much when defining a defenseman.

Next up Randy jones is a defensive specialist in the NHL

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07-22-2011, 06:12 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Apparently Matt Carle is flawless on defense. It's amazing they haven't renamed the Norris yet.
I haven't seen one single statement saying that Carle is flawless on defense. If there is one, feel free to point it out. There's been a lot of statement's posted about Carle as a player that are inaccurate such as he's poor defensively, or he's worse in his own end than Mike Green, but I haven't read anyone state that he's flawless.

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Really is........Guess the defensive turnovers don't count for much when defining a defenseman.

Next up Randy jones is a defensive specialist in the NHL
So turnovers define a defenseman and point out that he's poor in his own end?

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07-22-2011, 06:14 PM
  #109
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Every time someone tries to discuss one of Carle's shortcomings, you go on about how they don't exist. Apparently he's flawless.

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07-22-2011, 06:15 PM
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When an entire fanbase is arguing against you, you should know you're wrong. Carle is far from "reliable" defensivly

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07-22-2011, 06:19 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Every time someone tries to discuss one of Carle's shortcomings, you go on about how they don't exist. Apparently he's flawless.
That's innacurate. Carle has weaknesses like every player. One of my posts recently pointed out two of his biggest. It wasn't that long ago.

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When an entire fanbase is arguing against you, you should know you're wrong. Carle is far from "reliable" defensivly
So a handful of posters on hfboards is an entire fanbase? That's hysterical.

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07-22-2011, 06:20 PM
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You pointed to shortcomings on offense. How about defense? What are his shortcomings?

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07-22-2011, 06:26 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You pointed to shortcomings on offense. How about defense? What are his shortcomings?
One of his shortcomings is that he simply lacks the physical size to ever be a top defensive defenseman. But as a puck moving defenseman who contributes offensively, he's more than adequate defensively and is reliable in his own end. He also plays a high risk game sometimes in moving the puck, and can occasionally make some ill timed turnovers. But he has improved every year in that area. For a player that handles the puck as much as he does, giveways are always going to be a part of his game. Like any high minute puck moving D man.There is room for improvement there.
You have to take the total package of a player

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07-22-2011, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
One of his shortcomings is that he simply lacks the physical size to ever be a top defensive defenseman. But as a puck moving defenseman who contributes offensively, he's more than adequate defensively and is reliable in his own end. He also plays a high risk game sometimes in moving the puck, and can occasionally make some ill timed turnovers. But he has improved every year in that area. For a player that handles the puck as much as he does, giveways are always going to be a part of his game. Like any high minute puck moving D man.There is room for improvement there.
You have to take the total package of a player
There two things don't go together.

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07-22-2011, 06:33 PM
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There two things don't go together.

Sure they do. Every defenseman makes mistakes. The number of times Carle makes a good play and the right play, far outweigh the times he doesn't. That's the definition of being reliable in his own end. Give me some insight, and not just made up statements that mean nothing, pulled out of a hat.

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07-22-2011, 06:34 PM
  #116
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Just because you lack the size to be a physical force doesn't mean you shouldn't even try.

Examples: Powe, Timonen.

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07-22-2011, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Just because you lack the size to be a physical force doesn't mean you shouldn't even try.

Examples: Powe, Timonen.
If your saying that Carle doesn't try, that's another inaccurate statement. Both Powe and Timonen are bigger players than Carle. And you don't have to be an overly physical player to be good defensively. Some of the best defenseman in NHL and Flyers history, weren't physical players.

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07-22-2011, 06:41 PM
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If your saying that Carle doesn't try, that's another inaccurate statement. Both Powe and Timonen are bigger players than Carle. And you don't have to be an overly physical player to be good defensively. Some of the best defenseman in NHL and Flyers history, weren't physical players.
Timonen: 5' 10" 194 lbs

Powe: 5' 11' 211 lbs

Carle: 6' 0 10" 205 lbs

Carle is about the same size as Powe, and Timonen is just smaller.

The thing is, Carle not only isn't physical, he doesn't stand his ground. He routinely allows opposing forwards to skate straight into the zone and towards the net. He routinely fails to hold opposing forwards to the perimeter. Hell, he even lets forwards skate past him near the boards without rubbing them out. These things happen enough to be noticeable. Most of the time, he plays soft. That gets him shredded occasionally, and sometimes when it matters...like in the playoffs this year.

Those are shortcomings, and they are major ones for someone who is on the top pairing with Pronger. It's been a problem in the past, and hopefully he improves.

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07-22-2011, 06:57 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Timonen: 5' 10" 194 lbs

Powe: 5' 11' 211 lbs

Carle: 6' 0 10" 205 lbs

Carle is about the same size as Powe, and Timonen is just smaller.

The thing is, Carle not only isn't physical, he doesn't stand his ground. He routinely allows opposing forwards to skate straight into the zone and towards the net. He routinely fails to hold opposing forwards to the perimeter. Hell, he even lets forwards skate past him near the boards without rubbing them out. These things happen enough to be noticeable. Most of the time, he plays soft. That gets him shredded occasionally, and sometimes when it matters...like in the playoffs this year.

Those are shortcomings, and they are major ones for someone who is on the top pairing with Pronger. It's been a problem in the past, and hopefully he improves.
carle's stick work is very effective on defense though. He strips guys and fights for loose pucks ALL THE TIME. On top of that he can make the quick pass out of the zone, or give it to his partner (which as long as it isnt bartulis or some other scrub works out)

Im not saying he's great at defense (he could definitely be more physical). But he is good at it. The fact that people wont acknowledge that indicates some clear bias.

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07-22-2011, 07:01 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Timonen: 5' 10" 194 lbs

Powe: 5' 11' 211 lbs

Carle: 6' 0 10" 205 lbs

Carle is about the same size as Powe, and Timonen is just smaller.

The thing is, Carle not only isn't physical, he doesn't stand his ground. He routinely allows opposing forwards to skate straight into the zone and towards the net. He routinely fails to hold opposing forwards to the perimeter. Hell, he even lets forwards skate past him near the boards without rubbing them out. These things happen enough to be noticeable. Most of the time, he plays soft. That gets him shredded occasionally, and sometimes when it matters...like in the playoffs this year.

Those are shortcomings, and they are major ones for someone who is on the top pairing with Pronger. It's been a problem in the past, and hopefully he improves.
First of all, those are just listed physical stats. Both Powe and Timonen are stockier and physically stronger players than Carle is.

The rest of your post, couldn't be more innacurate. And is as big a reach as your earlier weak attempt to discredit Carle with your comparison to Mike Green.

A player as you described simply wouldn't be as relied upon as heavily as the Flyers Coaching staff does with Carle.
It's a desperate reach that can't be backed up with any facts to support it. Pretty funny actually.

The player you describe simply isn't an NHL defenseman, let alone a 20 + minute top 4 NHL defenseman that Carle is.

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carle's stick work is very effective on defense though. He strips guys and fights for loose pucks ALL THE TIME. On top of that he can make the quick pass out of the zone, or give it to his partner (which as long as it isnt bartulis or some other scrub works out)

Im not saying he's great at defense (he could definitely be more physical). But he is good at it. The fact that people wont acknowledge that indicates some clear bias.
Accurate analysis. Carle is never going to be a player that is ever considered great defensively.


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07-22-2011, 07:26 PM
  #121
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You keep saying "innacurate," yet you fail to provide proof. Several posters including myself have provided specific instances to back up our points, and occasionally even video evidence. You just ignore all of that, say "wrong" and then fail to provide any proof at all. And no, "Bill Meltzer and BSH says so" isn't proof.

So until you do that, I'll just stoop to your level: You're wrong. Everything you've said is inaccurate.

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07-22-2011, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You keep saying "innacurate," yet you fail to provide proof. Several posters including myself have provided specific instances to back up our points, and occasionally even video evidence. You just ignore all of that, say "wrong" and then fail to provide any proof at all. And no, "Bill Meltzer and BSH says so" I
sn't proof.

So until you do that, I'll just stoop to your level: You're wrong. Everything you've said is inaccurate.
Video evidence...I lol'd

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07-22-2011, 08:05 PM
  #123
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this Carle raise bidness is a little premature. No idea what he is going to play like in his contract year. But for 4 or 5 milly he needs to pot 10 goals 30 assists and most importantly eliminate the d zone turnovers he ain't doing this with Syvret or Gus or that other hack they signed either. He has to have a quality partner.

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07-22-2011, 08:07 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You keep saying "innacurate," yet you fail to provide proof. Several posters including myself have provided specific instances to back up our points, and occasionally even video evidence. You just ignore all of that, say "wrong" and then fail to provide any proof at all. And no, "Bill Meltzer and BSH says so" isn't proof.

So until you do that, I'll just stoop to your level: You're wrong. Everything you've said is inaccurate.
Sure I've provided proof. I provided proof with the very first post of this thread. All the statistical evidence, all of the commentary by credible NHL analysts such as Bill Meltzer and others, comments by the Coaching staff, and his teammates all back up and substantiate my opinion on Carle.
You and others who have made false statements pulled out of you know where, that Carle is weak defensively, have yet to provide any factual evidence to prove that. And you haven't simply because you can't. You even resorted to a laughable Mike Green comparison. Your reaching badly, and failing with every post to prove me wrong.

Video evidence? LOL Carle played over 2,000 minutes of Hockey last Season. You post a video or two and say see, I told you he was bad. I can find a highlight of even the best defenseman getting beat on a play and call it evidence. Laughable.

And your not at all "stooping" to my level. I've provided factual and informed analysis of the player. You've just flat out made stuff up.

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this Carle raise bidness is a little premature. No idea what he is going to play like in his contract year. But for 4 or 5 milly he needs to pot 10 goals 30 assists and most importantly eliminate the d zone turnovers he ain't doing this with Syvret or Gus or that other hack they signed either. He has to have a quality partner.

If Carle has a similar year to last year, he's going be able to command at least in the 4.5M range. Is the team going to be as good offensively as it was last year? And you can expect Carle's giveaway numbers to be in that 50 range again.

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07-22-2011, 08:28 PM
  #125
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,496
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Video evidence...I lol'd
You ignore both stats and video.


To clarify my stance on Carle, my biggest gripe is that he's just...frustrating. I was excited when he came there because he has a lot of potential. However, he's been decidedly slow at putting it together. Last season he took a step backwards on offense because his slow wrist shots from the blue line were just terrible.

He's frustrating in his own end because of his mind farts and persistent soft play/lack of tenacity. He's frustrating on offense pretty much anytime he shoots and because he doesn't seem to know what a slapshot is.

Hopefully he improves. I don't expect him to be great or elite, but I would like him to be able to anchor his own pairing someday. With the changes the team has made, I think its important to keep him and hope thaat he fills out with the rest of the new young players. In the mean time I'm going to continue being frustrated when he continues to make the
same mistakes, apparently learning nothing from them.

Edit: @ vansciver: you have provided no more proof than I have in regards to his deficiencies, and your proof certainly doesn't disprove anything I and many others have said.

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