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Old
07-23-2011, 04:54 AM
  #1
Ironmanrulez
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Unproven but huge potential > proven stars?

Most people in here say, Homer does the right things.

So you guys think in general, that an unproven huge potential player worth more than a proven impact player?

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07-23-2011, 04:56 AM
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Who knows ?

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07-23-2011, 04:58 AM
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Krishna
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How huge is the potential?

and how good of a star is it?

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07-23-2011, 05:23 AM
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Lets say the potential is a bit higher than the Player you trade for him.

But he is unproven!

Schenn > Richards?
Hall > Carter?
Cory Schneider > Roloson (donīt look at his age)?

only examples....

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07-23-2011, 05:41 AM
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It is important to understand the actual potential we're dealing with here before you make any predictions.

Schenn I equate to having the potential/game of a slightly lesser version of Toews (Not Richards).
--60-PPG and outstanding two-way play.

Couturier I equate to roughly the same potential/game as someone like E. Staal.
--70-PPG and great physical two-way play with size and dominance in the circle.

Giroux I equate to having the potential/game of a lesser version of Forsberg.
--70-PPG and great playmaking as well as a physical and a flashy game.

vanRiemsdyk I equate to having the same potential/game as a lesser version of LeClair.
--70-PPG+ and great size that can crash the net and goals from anywhere as well as remaining strong defensively.


Whether or not those players reach that potential is another matter. If all four do, then imagine a team:

LeClair-lite - Forsberg-lite - xxxxxx
xxxxxx - E. Staal - xxxxxx
xxxxxx - Toews-lite - xxxxxx

That said, while E. Staal is certainly a nice bit better than Carter, Toews-lite is not exactly up to par with Richards. So if things go well, we might basically have a wash talent-wise. It's hard to believe that it has the potential to be anything better than a wash (ignoring the other pieces we acquired for a second) unless Couturier absolutely blows everyone and everything out of the water.


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07-23-2011, 06:08 AM
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This is a great argument that will result in people slating you for saying potential > proven. Potential star players are a great thing because you never know where they are going to end up

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07-23-2011, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It is important to understand the actual potential we're dealing with here before you make any predictions.

Schenn I equate to having the potential/game of a slightly lesser version of Toews (Not Richards).
--60-PPG and outstanding two-way play.

Couturier I equate to roughly the same potential/game as someone like E. Staal.
--70-PPG and great physical two-way play with size and dominance in the circle.

Giroux I equate to having the potential/game of a lesser version of Forsberg.
--70-PPG and great playmaking as well as a physical and a flashy game.

vanRiemsdyk I equate to having the same potential/game as a lesser version of LeClair.
--70-PPG+ and great size that can crash the net and goals from anywhere as well as remaining strong defensively.


Whether or not those players reach that potential is another matter. If all four do, then imagine a team:

LeClair-lite - Forsberg-lite - xxxxxx
xxxxxx - E. Staal - xxxxxx
xxxxxx - Toews-lite - xxxxxx

That said, while E. Staal is certainly a nice bit better than Carter, Toews-lite is not exactly up to par with Richards. So if things go well, we might basically have a wash talent-wise. It's hard to believe that it has the potential to be anything better than a wash (ignoring the other pieces we acquired for a second) unless Couturier absolutely blows everyone and everything out of the water.
I tend to agree with what you say and generally players with big potential make it exciting to watch for sure. Also if you add in some of the other younger acquisitions like Voracek and Simmonds they could grow into a solid bunch. I mean Voracek is already around a 50 point player, put him with those lines and it could really up his game... However it would be nice just to have some of that potential on the D, I realise that Coburn, Carle and Meszaros arenít that old (especially of Dís) but one player with similar potential on the D would really make a lot of difference... We canít have it all though... Can we?

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07-23-2011, 07:02 AM
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In the salary cap era, young potential stars with the chance to break out early are invaluable. You cannot win a Cup anymore without good, young players on cheap contracts or ELCs.

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07-23-2011, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Schenn I equate to having the potential/game of a slightly lesser version of Toews (Not Richards).
--60-PPG and outstanding two-way play.

Couturier I equate to roughly the same potential/game as someone like E. Staal.
--70-PPG and great physical two-way play with size and dominance in the circle.

Giroux I equate to having the potential/game of a lesser version of Forsberg.
--70-PPG and great playmaking as well as a physical and a flashy game.

vanRiemsdyk I equate to having the same potential/game as a lesser version of LeClair.
--70-PPG+ and great size that can crash the net and goals from anywhere as well as remaining strong defensively.
This would give me kittens.

Especially if Couturier turns out like Eric Staal. I wish Eric Staal was a Flyer.

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07-23-2011, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
In the salary cap era, young potential stars with the chance to break out early are invaluable. You cannot win a Cup anymore without good, young players on cheap contracts or ELCs.
This notion is COMPLETELY overblown.

It makes it easier if your star players are on ELCs, but that's not realistic.

What is true though is you cannot win the Cup without young, cheap talent. They don't need to be stars, and they don't need to be on ELCs either.

They can be players like Coburn or Carle, on contracts just after their ELC but before their "prime" contract.

Or they can be players like vanRiemsdyk, Nodl, Bartulis; young players basically making ELC money chipping in as much as they can to help the team win.


Basically what you should be saying is that in order to win the cup, your players can't all be in their "prime" contracts like Bryzgalov, Hartnell, Briere, Timonen, etc. You need other contracts in their that are bargains to balance that out.

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07-23-2011, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It is important to understand the actual potential we're dealing with here before you make any predictions.

Schenn I equate to having the potential/game of a slightly lesser version of Toews (Not Richards).
--60-PPG and outstanding two-way play.

Couturier I equate to roughly the same potential/game as someone like E. Staal.
--70-PPG and great physical two-way play with size and dominance in the circle.

Giroux I equate to having the potential/game of a lesser version of Forsberg.
--70-PPG and great playmaking as well as a physical and a flashy game.

vanRiemsdyk I equate to having the same potential/game as a lesser version of LeClair.
--70-PPG+ and great size that can crash the net and goals from anywhere as well as remaining strong defensively.


Whether or not those players reach that potential is another matter. If all four do, then imagine a team:

LeClair-lite - Forsberg-lite - xxxxxx
xxxxxx - E. Staal - xxxxxx
xxxxxx - Toews-lite - xxxxxx

That said, while E. Staal is certainly a nice bit better than Carter, Toews-lite is not exactly up to par with Richards. So if things go well, we might basically have a wash talent-wise. It's hard to believe that it has the potential to be anything better than a wash (ignoring the other pieces we acquired for a second) unless Couturier absolutely blows everyone and everything out of the water.
really? with all the hype about him in recent years and surrounding the draft I would think he would be a 70 pts guy. 60 points is very good but I was hoping for a little more since he was the center piece for Richards. I understand we got a 2nd rounder as well as Simmonds and that Richie only had one season in the 80s one in the mid 70s and two in the 60s but still. I'm a little disappointed to be honest.


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07-23-2011, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
This notion is COMPLETELY overblown.

It makes it easier if your star players are on ELCs, but that's not realistic.

What is true though is you cannot win the Cup without young, cheap talent. They don't need to be stars, and they don't need to be on ELCs either.

They can be players like Coburn or Carle, on contracts just after their ELC but before their "prime" contract.

Or they can be players like vanRiemsdyk, Nodl, Bartulis; young players basically making ELC money chipping in as much as they can to help the team win.


Basically what you should be saying is that in order to win the cup, your players can't all be in their "prime" contracts like Bryzgalov, Hartnell, Briere, Timonen, etc. You need other contracts in their that are bargains to balance that out.
Um, yeah. That's nearly word for word what I said.

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07-23-2011, 07:37 AM
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I think some are selling Schenn short but saying his potential will be a lesser Richards. Leading up to his draft year, most publications described him as a better version of Mike Richards, with more offensive upside. Looking at their respective points per game totals their last year in juniors as comparison (Schenn is 1.68 versus Richards at 1.35), that projection seems plausible. Projections mean nothing till they play in the NHL, but I think based on potential, the Flyers will be a better team with Schenn and Couturier vs Richards and Carter down the line.

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07-23-2011, 07:51 AM
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I really hope all the reporters/media just leave Schenn and Couturier alone for a couple years. In fact if I could have it my way they wouldn't be aloud near them. The last thing I want is for the media to put any added pressure on them by constantly reminding them who they were traded for. Earlier this year Tim "Jackass" Panaccio told Schenn that most people thought he still wasn't ready to make the Kings roster this year so what was he going to do to make the Flyers or something along those lines. In rookie camp! After being told/asked about the trade for Richie multiple times I mean come on just stop already. In case you haven't noticed I have a tremendous hate for the average media person in Philly. I just think they ask the same question way too many times or a question that they very well know the answer too just to get a sound bite. And if nothing interesting is going on then they start blowing things out of proportion IMO. We all know the stuff surrounding Richards and Carter but forget that for a second and think back to the whole Pronger calling out G stuff. They both said it was nothing but they kept bringing it up months later even after the season ended in that interview with Pronger on CSN.

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07-23-2011, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Um, yeah. That's nearly word for word what I said.
Possibly, but I was clarifying a bit.

I consider Coburn and Carle and Meszaros to be on young, cheap contracts as well, because as soon as they are UFA's, their prices are going to skyrocket.

Giroux is also on a young, cheap contract though he is certainly not on an ELC.

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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
really? with all the hype about him in recent years and surrounding the draft I would think he would be a 70 pts guy. 60 points is very good but I was hoping for a little more since he was the center piece for Richards. I understand we got a 2nd rounder as well as Simmonds and that Richie only had one season in the 80s one in the mid 70s and two in the 60s but still. I'm a little disappointed to be honest.
I feel like Schenn might have the most limited offensive potential out of our new big 4, and that's kind of why it's harder for me to get a read on him. He could certainly be PPG+, but he could also just be in that 65~ range. Anything less than that 60-65 range consistently would be a disappointment honestly.

I consider Richards offensively to be 70-PPG as is what I consider Carter. Schenn could end up being just below that offensively or he could be just as good. Like I said, I think it's hard to get a read on where his offense projects.

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In case you haven't noticed I have a tremendous hate for the average media person in Philly.
Yep.

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07-23-2011, 07:57 AM
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I love this question.

Regarding Richards and Carter:

Proven regular season players, but were they really proven playoff performers especially lately? Carter disappeared after the allstar break every year and was always either hurt or a non factor in the playoffs or at least the past 2 years. Richards was ~ok in 10', but stunk this year.

What forwards carried the team in 10'? Briere, Hartnell, Leino, Giroux

In 11'? Briere, JVR, Giroux

I don't see Richards or Carter's name. The only impact player we lost was Leino and he will be missed.

Playoffs man. It's all that matters with this team b/c they make it pretty much every year. Regular season just pays the bills.

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07-23-2011, 08:01 AM
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Will Schenn and Voracek score more than one goal each in 11 playoff games if they play regularly on the PP? Can't say for sure, but my $$ says it's more than likely they will.

Mike Richards looked horrible for the most part the past 2 years and especially this year. I feel bad for the Kings. They got a 3rd line center with no hands, no moves, and no creativity. All he ever had was his heart and hustle and I haven't seen that in a while. Good riddance

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07-23-2011, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
I love this question.

Regarding Richards and Carter:

Proven regular season players, but were they really proven playoff performers especially lately? Carter disappeared after the allstar break every year and was always either hurt or a non factor in the playoffs or at least the past 2 years. Richards was ~ok in 10', but stunk this year.

What forwards carried the team in 10'? Briere, Hartnell, Leino, Giroux

In 11'? Briere, JVR, Giroux

I don't see Richards or Carter's name. The only impact player we lost was Leino and he will be missed.

Playoffs man. It's all that matters with this team b/c they make it pretty much every year. Regular season just pays the bills.
Richards was a FREAK OF NATURE in the 2010 playoffs.

Flashes of Primeau 2004 even though he wasn't leading our team in points.

God that entire Montreal series was a work of perfection for Richie.

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07-23-2011, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It is important to understand the actual potential we're dealing with here before you make any predictions.

Schenn I equate to having the potential/game of a slightly lesser version of Toews (Not Richards).
--60-PPG and outstanding two-way play.

Couturier I equate to roughly the same potential/game as someone like E. Staal.
--70-PPG and great physical two-way play with size and dominance in the circle.

Giroux I equate to having the potential/game of a lesser version of Forsberg.
--70-PPG and great playmaking as well as a physical and a flashy game.

vanRiemsdyk I equate to having the same potential/game as a lesser version of LeClair.
--70-PPG+ and great size that can crash the net and goals from anywhere as well as remaining strong defensively.

Giroux already is a 70-PPG player. Giroux's potential is 85 to 90-PPG.

I like what the Flyers have done this offseason. They identified that Richards and Carter weren't the guys to win the Cup for them and they moved them before they were stuck for 10 years. Even if none of the guys they got in return for them pan out, they have given themselves the flexibility to make moves over the next decade.

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07-23-2011, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I consider Richards offensively to be 70-PPG as is what I consider Carter. Schenn could end up being just below that offensively or he could be just as good. Like I said, I think it's hard to get a read on where his offense projects.

Yep.
I agree, but keep in mind Schenn is of a higher pedigree. Carter and Richards were mid to late 1st rounders(15 and 23?) and neither lit up a World Juniors like Schenn did.

I realize Carter and Richards are proven NHL players. I'm just saying Schenn has a bigger upside in my opinion. Carter did score alot of goals though. From games 1-62 that is

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07-23-2011, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
I agree, but keep in mind Schenn is of a higher pedigree. Carter and Richards were mid to late 1st rounders(15 and 23?) and neither lit up a World Juniors like Schenn did.
Carter certainly lit up the World Juniors.

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I realize Carter and Richards are proven NHL players. I'm just saying Schenn has a bigger upside in my opinion. Carter did score alot of goals though. From games 1-62 that is
I understand you like Schenn's offensive potential, but I'm being a little more cautious with him.

I don't see the raw offensive explosiveness that I see in Giroux, JVR, and Couturier.

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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Giroux already is a 70-PPG player. Giroux's potential is 85 to 90-PPG.
I tend to agree with you, but I'm on the more cautious side right now. Let's see what Giroux does this season. Part of me thinks he's the most dynamic offensive player the Flyers have seen in forever.

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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
I like what the Flyers have done this offseason. They identified that Richards and Carter weren't the guys to win the Cup for them and they moved them before they were stuck for 10 years. Even if none of the guys they got in return for them pan out, they have given themselves the flexibility to make moves over the next decade.
I agree with this. I love Richards, but I have faith in the organization's moves. In fact, the very fact that I love Richards (as does everyone else) makes me believe more that the organization would not have moved him unless completely necessary.

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07-23-2011, 08:18 AM
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Richards was a FREAK OF NATURE in the 2010 playoffs.

Flashes of Primeau 2004 even though he wasn't leading our team in points.

God that entire Montreal series was a work of perfection for Richie.
I agree that ok was probably the wrong choice of words. That being said he was your 4th best forward in 10' to Briere(30pts,+9) Giroux(21pts, +7), and Leino(25pts,+12)-prorated. Richards had 23pts, but also was a -1 and played first line pp unlike Giroux.

Please don't compare his 10' performance to Primeau O4'. Take that shift away from him vs. Montreal and it ain't even close.

Your 3 best forwards are still here. Trust me

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07-23-2011, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
In the salary cap era, young potential stars with the chance to break out early are invaluable. You cannot win a Cup anymore without good, young players on cheap contracts or ELCs.
Thank you. It's a salary cap league. Your value is going to be young stars in those first few years. You can't pay players 11 million a year for 2 combined goals in 11 playoff games. How many did Marchand and Seguin have and what were their salaries? Hawks-young stars. Pens-young stars when they won. Detroit eeked one out after the cap, but you see they haven't been back since.

Forget Richards and Carter. Moving them and getting 3 top 8 picks was pure genius.

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07-23-2011, 08:25 AM
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Most people in here say, Homer does the right things.

So you guys think in general, that an unproven huge potential player worth more than a proven impact player?
Most people who understand hockey think Homer is a colossal **** up.

An unproven player is an unproven player is an unproven player. Until we see them consistently for 4-5 years they are still question marks, while Richards and Carter both proved to be excellent players on a consistent basis.

To the person who said Schenn and Couturier shouldn't be allowed near the media, sorry, I disagree. The media contributed heavily to Richards' trade and these new guys shouldn't be sheltered. Let them jump into the fire and see what it's like.

Btw did anyone else see the quote from Homer in the latest issue of the Hockey News? Something along the lines of "I don't know if we got better but we got different.". Makes me sooo confident in the job he and Snider did.

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07-23-2011, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
I agree that ok was probably the wrong choice of words. That being said he was your 4th best forward in 10' to Briere(30pts,+9) Giroux(21pts, +7), and Leino(25pts,+12)-prorated. Richards had 23pts, but also was a -1 and played first line pp unlike Giroux.

Please don't compare his 10' performance to Primeau O4'. Take that shift away from him vs. Montreal and it ain't even close.

Your 3 best forwards are still here. Trust me
Richards' shutdown game through the postseason was Oscar-worthy. I've seen epic movies far less epic. And I got to watch it free without paying $11 a ticket.

He was amazing. Putting Leino above him is insulting.

That said, yes, I will agree that Richards' drive has tapered exponentially since the time when the Flyers started slipping in 2010-11, possibly even a little before that.

That is only half a season though. You don't cut your best forward (yes, he was still our best forward with only Pronger being a better player) just because he had a rough half-season. That leads me to believe there was far more involved here than just making moves to make moves.

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