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Unproven but huge potential > proven stars?

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Old
07-23-2011, 12:06 PM
  #51
malfeasance
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Originally Posted by Pwnz0rs View Post
I think he thinks your lineup is an actual one that they are going to use
well, that pretty much WAS his point, otherwise why post it

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07-23-2011, 12:10 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Most people who understand hockey think Homer is a colossal **** up.

An unproven player is an unproven player is an unproven player. Until we see them consistently for 4-5 years they are still question marks, while Richards and Carter both proved to be excellent players on a consistent basis.

To the person who said Schenn and Couturier shouldn't be allowed near the media, sorry, I disagree. The media contributed heavily to Richards' trade and these new guys shouldn't be sheltered. Let them jump into the fire and see what it's like.

Btw did anyone else see the quote from Homer in the latest issue of the Hockey News? Something along the lines of "I don't know if we got better but we got different.". Makes me sooo confident in the job he and Snider did.
Depends on your definition of consistency. Richards was easily the more consistent of the two. Carter would explode for batches of games with points, then go through a bit of a dead period. And then playoffs came around and Carter would typically disappear, and Richards would lose points because he's spending most of his time trying to shut down the opposing star.

As for the 2nd bolded...this to me means that Richard (and Carter maybe) were traded for reasons unknown to us, and that things needed to change. I'm not sure of the context of the quote, but if he intended to put a positive connotation on the word "different", then I'm pretty happy. Bash him all you want, but Homer knows whats happening in the locker room, and none of us do.

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07-23-2011, 12:12 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by malfeasance View Post
well, that pretty much WAS his point, otherwise why post it
Maybe the reason I posted it was in the section that you conveniently erased.

I don't know what it is, but I have a bone to pick with the American school system. Far too many people are coming to HFboards without any kind of appreciation for context. And you wonder why our school systems are falling behind the rest of the world? I don't think it's that people can't read, I think that we've become so lazy that people are actually choosing not to.

Malfeasance, my friend, you're just going to have to go back and read it all to figure it out for yourself. I'm not giving you any clues.

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07-23-2011, 12:12 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Depends on your definition of consistency. Richards was easily the more consistent of the two. Carter would explode for batches of games with points, then go through a bit of a dead period. And then playoffs came around and Carter would typically disappear, and Richards would lose points because he's spending most of his time trying to shut down the opposing star.

As for the 2nd bolded...this to me means that Richard (and Carter maybe) were traded for reasons unknown to us, and that things needed to change. I'm not sure of the context of the quote, but if he intended to put a positive connotation on the word "different", then I'm pretty happy. Bash him all you want, but Homer knows whats happening in the locker room, and none of us do.
If you look at last year's game logs, you'll find that Carter was very consistent in putting up points. More consistent than Richards was.

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07-23-2011, 12:15 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Maybe the reason I posted it was in the section that you conveniently erased.

I don't know what it is, but I have a bone to pick with the American school system. Far too many people are coming to HFboards without any kind of appreciation for context. And you wonder why our school systems are falling behind the rest of the world? I don't think it's that people can't read, I think that we've become so lazy that people are actually choosing not to.

Malfeasance, my friend, you're just going to have to go back and read it all to figure it out for yourself. I'm not giving you any clues.
Is that what it is! LOL. It couldn't be that some people are just more knowledgeable than you are when it comes to the game of Hockey, now could it? LOL

It's always a dead give away when a poster responds and attacks someone personally instead of just sticking to the facts and the subject matter. An informed and intelligent fan of the sport, simply doesn't have to do that.

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Old
07-23-2011, 12:20 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Maybe the reason I posted it was in the section that you conveniently erased.

I don't know what it is, but I have a bone to pick with the American school system. Far too many people are coming to HFboards without any kind of appreciation for context. And you wonder why our school systems are falling behind the rest of the world? I don't think it's that people can't read, I think that we've become so lazy that people are actually choosing not to.

Malfeasance, my friend, you're just going to have to go back and read it all to figure it out for yourself. I'm not giving you any clues.
1) I'm not your friend

2) You've been seriously lacking clues for years

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07-23-2011, 12:25 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Maybe the reason I posted it was in the section that you conveniently erased.

I don't know what it is, but I have a bone to pick with the American school system. Far too many people are coming to HFboards without any kind of appreciation for context. And you wonder why our school systems are falling behind the rest of the world? I don't think it's that people can't read, I think that we've become so lazy that people are actually choosing not to.

Malfeasance, my friend, you're just going to have to go back and read it all to figure it out for yourself. I'm not giving you any clues.

Since the point of the thread is potential vs proven, my comments are fully in line with topic and there is no context lost. Your "potential" line-up gives me the willies. Especially in comparison to the proven lineup we just lost.

If that makes you angry and spiteful at American education (not sure WHERE that contextual argument came from, btw), so be it.

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Old
07-23-2011, 12:32 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Expected value arguments always go over well around here. Good luck with this.
Do you play poker at all Jester? I think you could make a good player, depending on your disposition.




The math regarding those player valuations is really similar to what poker players do as far as assigning a probability that his opponent holds each of a set of specific hands in his possible range of holdings, and then his expected win percentage against each to come up with the likelihood that he will win in his current situation (which they of course then compare to the money odds they're looking at). Those guys are almost never putting someone on a single hand and deciding from that.

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07-23-2011, 12:33 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
The math regarding those player valuations is really similar to what poker players do as far as assigning a probability that his opponent holds each of a set of specific hands in his possible range of holdings, and then his expected win percentage against each to come up with the likelihood that he will win in his current situation (which they of course then compare to the money odds they're looking at). Those guys are almost never putting someone on a single hand and deciding from that.
This is probably why I was never good at poker.

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Old
07-23-2011, 12:56 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by malfeasance View Post
Since the point of the thread is potential vs proven, my comments are fully in line with topic and there is no context lost. Your "potential" line-up gives me the willies. Especially in comparison to the proven lineup we just lost.

If that makes you angry and spiteful at American education (not sure WHERE that contextual argument came from, btw), so be it.
His point wasn't to compare a potential lineup to a proven lineup. It was only a snapshot of what a lineup of our prospects would look like. He even says in his post that there is no chance that this lineup would ever be iced. To go a bit further, that lineup wouldn't even make it to a cap floor.

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07-23-2011, 01:16 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I prefer the sure thing to a "maybe." Unless that maybe is essentially a "sure thing" as well. Even then, id only trade the proven talent if there were absolutely no doubt that the prospect would end up being better than my proven player.

It seems many other gms agree with that, too. Hence why other pieces came back with schenn and voracek.
You have to bring Bryzgalov into this conversation bc you couldn't have signed him without moving one of the two (Carter or Richards).

Boucher, Carter, and Richards
vs.
Bryzgalov, Voracek, Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds

That's essentially what the two deals produced. I'll take the bottom list now and definitely for the future.

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Old
07-23-2011, 01:22 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
You have to bring Bryzgalov into this conversation bc you couldn't have signed him without moving one of the two (Carter or Richards).

Boucher, Carter, and Richards
vs.
Bryzgalov, Voracek, Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds

That's essentially what the two deals produced. I'll take the bottom list now and definitely for the future.
The Flyers could have signed Bryzgalov without moving one of Carter and Richards.

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07-23-2011, 01:22 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Theoretically though in this scenario...

Richards + Carter = 50

Schenn + Couturier = 0-50

Voracek + Simmonds = 25-50

So in this case scenario, the worst you come out with is 25 (aka the level Simmonds and Voracek are now). Best case scenario talent-wise you come out with 100 (though unlikely because Simmonds certainly does not have to potential of the rest).
Your forgetting Bryzgalov. Add the difference between him and Boucher to the mix.

This is a cap league now guys. Moves aren't just about player for player talent.

They had to do something with the goaltending. I mean the Flyers goalie situation over the past 20 years is one of the biggest jokes in the NHL.

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07-23-2011, 01:27 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
The Flyers could have signed Bryzgalov without moving one of Carter and Richards.
I disagree. They were over the cap last year so how do you sign Bryzgalov?

Another point that's not being brought up with all the this guy will score X # of points etc. Chemistry. The locker room.

Ever find it odd that this team went on so many long slumps considering their talent? Especially the one that got Stevens fired.

The big guys obviously didn't like something in that room.

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07-23-2011, 01:33 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Maybe the reason I posted it was in the section that you conveniently erased.

I don't know what it is, but I have a bone to pick with the American school system. Far too many people are coming to HFboards without any kind of appreciation for context. And you wonder why our school systems are falling behind the rest of the world? I don't think it's that people can't read, I think that we've become so lazy that people are actually choosing not to.

Malfeasance, my friend, you're just going to have to go back and read it all to figure it out for yourself. I'm not giving you any clues.
How hard do you work at the job your degree got you?

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07-23-2011, 01:38 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
I disagree. They were over the cap last year so how do you sign Bryzgalov?

Another point that's not being brought up with all the this guy will score X # of points etc. Chemistry. The locker room.

Ever find it odd that this team went on so many long slumps considering their talent? Especially the one that got Stevens fired.

The big guys obviously didn't like something in that room.
Are you referring to the bonus overages that the Flyers had to carry onto this year's Cap? The do it by simply moving other players. The FLyers made a choice here.

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Old
07-23-2011, 01:42 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
You have to bring Bryzgalov into this conversation bc you couldn't have signed him without moving one of the two (Carter or Richards).

Boucher, Carter, and Richards
vs.
Bryzgalov, Voracek, Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds

That's essentially what the two deals produced. I'll take the bottom list now and definitely for the future.
Yes you could have. Almost everyone here put together cap compliant rosters that signed Bryz and kept Richards and Carter. It was completely possible.

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07-23-2011, 01:42 PM
  #68
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You need to look deeper into US school system rankings. US school performance is based on tax $$ and how affluent the area is.

US schools in middle, middle upper, and upper class areas are competitive with and or surpass schools of any other developed nation. It's the poorer areas and inner cities that bring the #'s way down in the US. Is it a problem? Absolutely. Does it mean the entire system is horrible or that Americans are dummies? Absolutely not.

Unfortunately there are two Americas. The have's and have nots.

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07-23-2011, 01:46 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yes you could have. Almost everyone here put together cap compliant rosters that signed Bryz and kept Richards and Carter. It was completely possible.
Ok you could. Doesn't matter. They're gone and the reasons were more than salary cap or production.

What's the point in arguing what people that know more than us about a situation could have done when it's already done.

Get on board or buy a Richards Kings jersey and Columbus Carter jersey. I don't know what to tell ya. The teams been there 45 years with the same owner. Players come and go and will continue to.

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07-23-2011, 01:47 PM
  #70
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Apparently, so will chances for a Stanley Cup.

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Old
07-23-2011, 01:51 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
I disagree. They were over the cap last year so how do you sign Bryzgalov?
This was only covered a thousand different times, but dumping salary with Versteeg, etc, not re-signing Leino, SOD, etc and sending Shelley directly into the sun, left plenty of room. Yes, you would've hurt team scoring depth, but considering we torched that depth completely now anyway.......I'd rather have the guys we had


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
Another point that's not being brought up with all the this guy will score X # of points etc. Chemistry. The locker room.

Ever find it odd that this team went on so many long slumps considering their talent? Especially the one that got Stevens fired.

The big guys obviously didn't like something in that room.
None of those speculative jumps you just made erase the fact that the team made it to the Final 2 years ago and was elite for most all of last year......with no goalie. They were on the cusp and needed goalie help. Now we have a goalie, but with a team who's offensive potential will not blossom during his best years. Problem....solved??

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07-23-2011, 02:21 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by malfeasance View Post
None of those speculative jumps you just made erase the fact that the team made it to the Final 2 years ago and was elite for most all of last year......with no goalie. They were on the cusp and needed goalie help. Now we have a goalie, but with a team who's offensive potential will not blossom during his best years. Problem....solved??
When exactly are Bryzgalov's best years?

Looking at goalies today, most are having their best years between 33-36 years of age. Tim Thomas, Tomas Vokoun, Dwayne Roloson and Martin Brodeur. We're probably still 2 years away from Bryzgalov's best years between the pipes.

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07-23-2011, 02:24 PM
  #73
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This team needs more matt carles.

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07-23-2011, 02:30 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
When exactly are Bryzgalov's best years?

Looking at goalies today, most are having their best years between 33-36 years of age. Tim Thomas, Tomas Vokoun, Dwayne Roloson and Martin Brodeur. We're probably still 2 years away from Bryzgalov's best years between the pipes.
Then there are the Gigueres, Toskalas etc. You can't just go by guys who are in that age bracket who are good. Roloson doesn't have the consistency and Brodeur has been fading the past few years. Thomas had a phenomenal year but last year was a backup.

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07-23-2011, 03:03 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
When exactly are Bryzgalov's best years?

Looking at goalies today, most are having their best years between 33-36 years of age. Tim Thomas, Tomas Vokoun, Dwayne Roloson and Martin Brodeur. We're probably still 2 years away from Bryzgalov's best years between the pipes.
Just for fun, from ages 33+ there are just as many Turco's, Theodore's, Gerber's, Chris Mason's, Biron's, Brent Johnson's, Giguerre's, Boucher's and Conklin's on that list


Sure there are a few guys that are good (or even improve) at that age, but on average the chances of Bryz being on a high level like that by the time these kids come of age is smaller than I am comfortable with. Not to mention, he'll be losing Kimmo and Pronger soon.

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