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Unproven but huge potential > proven stars?

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Old
07-23-2011, 03:27 PM
  #76
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Just for fun, from ages 33+ there are just as many Turco's, Theodore's, Gerber's, Chris Mason's, Biron's, Brent Johnson's, Giguerre's, Boucher's and Conklin's on that list


Sure there are a few guys that are good (or even improve) at that age, but on average the chances of Bryz being on a high level like that by the time these kids come of age is smaller than I am comfortable with. Not to mention, he'll be losing Kimmo and Pronger soon.
He might even be a pronger down this season. I really hope the flyers make a big UFA D signing next year. We really need it. We don't have the ability to develop and draft them.

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07-23-2011, 03:37 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yes you could have. Almost everyone here put together cap compliant rosters that signed Bryz and kept Richards and Carter. It was completely possible.
they could of traded Hartnell and Carle instead of Richards and Carter. Of course I think the organization viewed Hartnell as a player who couldnt be replaced. they like what he "brings" I personally think he is overrated by some around here. Of course he has that stupid NTC that played a part in it.
I think once the seriousness of Prongers back issues came to light they really couldnt of moved Matt Carle, yet another player who isnt as good as his cap hit is. I mean they could of. But we all know that they havent given any of our young defenseman that we drafted a chance to prove themsleves. Like Gus.
trade Hartnell and Carle. Dont sign Talbot, dont sign Lilja.
give Gus and Bartulis a shot.
it could of been done.


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07-23-2011, 03:43 PM
  #78
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Ok you could. Doesn't matter. They're gone and the reasons were more than salary cap or production.

What's the point in arguing what people that know more than us about a situation could have done when it's already done.

Get on board or buy a Richards Kings jersey and Columbus Carter jersey. I don't know what to tell ya. The teams been there 45 years with the same owner. Players come and go and will continue to.
Done. I am a Flyers fan first and foremost but I am also a Richards fan. Kings are my favorite team in the west and have been for quite some time but never owned a jersey, since Richie was moved there it was kind of a no-brainer for me. Personally I would have liked for the Flyers to have just moved Carter for Voracek and the 8th overall. Richards would have gotten the message and straitened out after that and if not you could have traded him at the end of the year before his NMC kicked in. There was no reason for both of them to be moved in the same year IMO.

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07-23-2011, 04:12 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by malfeasance View Post
Just for fun, from ages 33+ there are just as many Turco's, Theodore's, Gerber's, Chris Mason's, Biron's, Brent Johnson's, Giguerre's, Boucher's and Conklin's on that list


Sure there are a few guys that are good (or even improve) at that age, but on average the chances of Bryz being on a high level like that by the time these kids come of age is smaller than I am comfortable with. Not to mention, he'll be losing Kimmo and Pronger soon.
Are you comparing Bryzgalov to a goalie like Brent Johnson? Really?

Of course the players on your list did better when they were younger, but most of them weren't very good to begin with.

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07-23-2011, 05:45 PM
  #80
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It remains to be seen if Bryz will be a goalie who plays well when he's 35, or if he'll join the many more he get injured/fall off quickly. Goalies who play at a high level into older age are the exception to the rule.

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07-23-2011, 06:21 PM
  #81
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People keep saying that they could have kept Richards and Carter and still got Bryzgalov. That is 100% true. They could have shipped out Hartnell and Carle and kept Richards and Carter. BUT THEY DIDN'T! Doesn't that tell you something? They were building a team around the wrong 2 guys. They realized it and shipped them out while they still had a chance.

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07-23-2011, 06:36 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanSinceBirth View Post
People keep saying that they could have kept Richards and Carter and still got Bryzgalov. That is 100% true. They could have shipped out Hartnell and Carle and kept Richards and Carter. BUT THEY DIDN'T! Doesn't that tell you something? They were building a team around the wrong 2 guys. They realized it and shipped them out while they still had a chance.
Or, it's cause Hartnell has a NTC. Also, maybe there isn't a big market for Carle out there. I know, I know, it's a shock to many but if they weren't going to get much of a return for him while knowing Pronger's future was uncertain, those options went out the door.

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07-23-2011, 06:43 PM
  #83
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Or, it's cause Hartnell has a NTC. Also, maybe there isn't a big market for Carle out there. I know, I know, it's a shock to many but if they weren't going to get much of a return for him while knowing Pronger's future was uncertain, those options went out the door.
Who cares about Hartnell's NTC? Go ask Gagne how his NTC worked out for him. And as far as not getting a good return for Carle, maybe you can talk to Versteeg about what he got traded for. Plain and simple there was a team full of people to choose from in the trade options. They chose the ones they wanted and they chose correctly.

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07-23-2011, 06:45 PM
  #84
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Or, it's cause Hartnell has a NTC. Also, maybe there isn't a big market for Carle out there. I know, I know, it's a shock to many but if they weren't going to get much of a return for him while knowing Pronger's future was uncertain, those options went out the door.
When you're trying to clear cap space the return is secondary. I have to believe that there is at least one team in the NHL that could have used Matt Carle regardless of the return.

They traded Carter and Richards for a reason and the reason wasn't the cap space.

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07-23-2011, 07:14 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Or, it's cause Hartnell has a NTC. Also, maybe there isn't a big market for Carle out there. I know, I know, it's a shock to many but if they weren't going to get much of a return for him while knowing Pronger's future was uncertain, those options went out the door.
I doubt Hartnell was ever going to be asked considering his worth to the flyers anyway.

We could of done it losing Steeg, Shelley, boosh and Carle.

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07-23-2011, 08:17 PM
  #86
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I doubt Hartnell was ever going to be asked considering his worth to the flyers anyway.

We could of done it losing Steeg, Shelley, boosh and Carle.
Homer is married to Shelley. Getting rid of Carle when Pronger's future is cloudy would be stupid because as bad as he is, he's better than some of the other options in the organization.

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07-23-2011, 08:58 PM
  #87
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Done. I am a Flyers fan first and foremost but I am also a Richards fan. Kings are my favorite team in the west and have been for quite some time but never owned a jersey, since Richie was moved there it was kind of a no-brainer for me. Personally I would have liked for the Flyers to have just moved Carter for Voracek and the 8th overall. Richards would have gotten the message and straitened out after that and if not you could have traded him at the end of the year before his NMC kicked in. There was no reason for both of them to be moved in the same year IMO.
That's your opinion. You have 1/1000th the information the team did. I think it was a combination of performance and attitude with both of them. Pronger and the coach have rings. Those two don't and word is maybe they didn't give the respect they should have.

Do you really think Mike Richards played well at any point this year? I thought he looked horrible the entire year despite being out there on every PP and being paired with everyone on the team.

Good luck with the Kings. I'll stick with the Fly guys. Both came in in 67'. Flyers have 2 cups and 8 finals appearances. Kings have 0 cups and 1 finals.

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Originally Posted by FlyersFanSinceBirth View Post
People keep saying that they could have kept Richards and Carter and still got Bryzgalov. That is 100% true. They could have shipped out Hartnell and Carle and kept Richards and Carter. BUT THEY DIDN'T! Doesn't that tell you something? They were building a team around the wrong 2 guys. They realized it and shipped them out while they still had a chance.
Exactly. Get value before the value isn't there. I'll say it again. You were not getting playoff value out of Richards lately and have NEVER gotten it out of Carter. He's either hurt or he disappears every year after the all star break. You also had 4 top 2 centers. You still have the better 2 of the 4 hands down.

2 players that were getting "go to" guy money and the go to guys always ended up being Briere, Giroux, Hartnell, JVR, and Leino.

What's the worst that can happen? Can they get more than swept by a tough team in the East and have to pull their goalie every game?

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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I doubt Hartnell was ever going to be asked considering his worth to the flyers anyway.

We could of done it losing Steeg, Shelley, boosh and Carle.
Carle really? On a team with two 36 yr old d men and not much in the way of prospects to fill those spots? You don't need four 5-7 million dollar a year centers. You need two and you still have them with two more coming up that will work for peanuts for a couple of years.

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When you're trying to clear cap space the return is secondary. I have to believe that there is at least one team in the NHL that could have used Matt Carle regardless of the return.

They traded Carter and Richards for a reason and the reason wasn't the cap space.
Agreed. Cap was secondary. It's obvious they looked at the past 6-7 years and decided it was time to move on. I feel they got ALOT in return so let's give it a chance instead of whining about 2 guys that scored 2 combined goals in 11 playoff games.

Giroux, JVR, Voracek, Schenn, Couturier. It will be exciting watching those 5 develop over the next few years. What if Bryzgalov is the truth? Add the cherry on top-Jagr. Guys one of the best to ever play the game. I feel lucky to watch his NHL comeback in a Flyers uniform.

I'm not saying you aren't a fan bc you don't like the trades and you have a right to your opinion. However, the teams still here. They're gone. At some point you gotta move on or buy that Kings jersey.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 07-24-2011 at 04:52 PM. Reason: merging multiple posts.
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07-23-2011, 09:24 PM
  #88
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That's your opinion. You have 1/1000th the information the team did. I think it was a combination of performance and attitude with both of them. Pronger and the coach have rings. Those two don't and word is maybe they didn't give the respect they should have.

Do you really think Mike Richards played well at any point this year? I thought he looked horrible the entire year despite being out there on every PP and being paired with everyone on the team.

Good luck with the Kings. I'll stick with the Fly guys. Both came in in 67'. Flyers have 2 cups and 8 finals appearances. Kings have 0 cups and 1 finals.
No i don't think he looked good at any particular point last year but to say he was horrible is just ridiculous. and for the record he spent the majority of the season playing with carcillo, nodl, kv, Z and carter in only a few games. unless on the PP he didn't play with the likes of hartnell, JVR, leino, G or Briere. Briere also had consitant PP time and only put up two more pts playing with better wingers for the majority of the season in only a few less games. I'm sure having an injured wrist also had something to do with his decline in offensive production.

and i don't know if you can't read very well or what but as i stated in my previous post i am a flyers fan first and foremost so that whole bold section is just asinine.

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07-23-2011, 09:33 PM
  #89
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That's your opinion. You have 1/1000th the information the team did. I think it was a combination of performance and attitude with both of them. Pronger and the coach have rings. Those two don't and word is maybe they didn't give the respect they should have.

Do you really think Mike Richards played well at any point this year? I thought he looked horrible the entire year despite being out there on every PP and being paired with everyone on the team.

Good luck with the Kings. I'll stick with the Fly guys. Both came in in 67'. Flyers have 2 cups and 8 finals appearances. Kings have 0 cups and 1 finals.
He looked fine on the PK. Of course you don't take into account that he had a wrist that had to be surgically repaired from training camp and managed to put up over 60 points while having such awesome winners as Nodl on his wing most of the time. Unlike Giroux who had Carter and JvR most of the season, Richards, once again had the leftovers.

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07-23-2011, 09:38 PM
  #90
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Who cares about Hartnell's NTC? Go ask Gagne how his NTC worked out for him. And as far as not getting a good return for Carle, maybe you can talk to Versteeg about what he got traded for. Plain and simple there was a team full of people to choose from in the trade options. They chose the ones they wanted and they chose correctly.
Can I borrow your crystal ball? I'm about to run out for some lottery tickets and I'd love to know the future as well as you do.

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07-24-2011, 02:10 AM
  #91
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Can I borrow your crystal ball? I'm about to run out for some lottery tickets and I'd love to know the future as well as you do.
Never said I could see the future. Carter and Richards were the so called corner stones of this team and just like that they are both gone. There's a reason for that. They got rid of what needed to be gotten rid of. Regardless of how Richards and Carter turn out they obviously weren't working out here and needed to go.

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07-24-2011, 08:42 AM
  #92
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Never said I could see the future. Carter and Richards were the so called corner stones of this team and just like that they are both gone. There's a reason for that. They got rid of what needed to be gotten rid of. Regardless of how Richards and Carter turn out they obviously weren't working out here and needed to go.
Saying, "They chose the ones they wanted and they chose correctly" certainly indicates some sort of crazy gypsy future knowing power.

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07-24-2011, 09:18 AM
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No i don't think he looked good at any particular point last year but to say he was horrible is just ridiculous. and for the record he spent the majority of the season playing with carcillo, nodl, kv, Z and carter in only a few games. unless on the PP he didn't play with the likes of hartnell, JVR, leino, G or Briere. Briere also had consitant PP time and only put up two more pts playing with better wingers for the majority of the season in only a few less games. I'm sure having an injured wrist also had something to do with his decline in offensive production.

and i don't know if you can't read very well or what but as i stated in my previous post i am a flyers fan first and foremost so that whole bold section is just asinine.
For his salary he looked horrible. Absolutely. It was pathetic to watch. Hands of stone, no creativity, etc.

One team. Fan means Fanatic. How much of a Flyers fan can you be wearing a Kings jersey? Makes sense to me.

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He looked fine on the PK. Of course you don't take into account that he had a wrist that had to be surgically repaired from training camp and managed to put up over 60 points while having such awesome winners as Nodl on his wing most of the time. Unlike Giroux who had Carter and JvR most of the season, Richards, once again had the leftovers.
Then I'll look forward to him lighting it up this year in LA. So what your saying is Richards was our 3rd line center. Agreed. When you play like one that's what you are.

He's gone for numerous reasons and the people that moved him know more than both of us so I would get over it and stop whining. Move on.

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Saying, "They chose the ones they wanted and they chose correctly" certainly indicates some sort of crazy gypsy future knowing power.
I think you could infer that it was his opinion.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 07-24-2011 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Multi-quote is really useful.
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07-24-2011, 09:34 AM
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For his salary he looked horrible. Absolutely. It was pathetic to watch. Hands of stone, no creativity, etc.

One team. Fan means Fanatic. How much of a Flyers fan can you be wearing a Kings jersey? Makes sense to me.
I also own several flyers jersey's as well as a coyotes jersey and an old jets jersey. just because I have jerseys of other teams that almost never play the flyers doesn't mean I'm not a flyers fan. on the day the teams actually do play each other you will never see me wearing the opposing teams jersey. and to say a player with 66 pts was horrible and pathetic to watch who had 40 assists with no creativity is so incredibly stupid. Hitler thought it made sense to kill jews too so just because a statement makes sense to you does not mean its logical. I am sure most people would agree with me on this.

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Then I'll look forward to him lighting it up this year in LA. So what your saying is Richards was our 3rd line center. Agreed. When you play like one that's what you are.

He's gone for numerous reasons and the people that moved him know more than both of us so I would get over it and stop whining. Move on.
Think you should take your own advice. people have every right to express their opinions as do you but when you repeatedly say move on why don't you follow suit? some people on here think he was moved for a good reasons and others don't which I'm completely fine with but you can't keep arguing that he wasn't effective cause thats just ridiculous. most people know richie is a 70+pts guy so 66 is not much of a drop. and if your argument is that he was overpaid as compared to his production then you should be angry at paul for signing him at the price that he did. in several years even if he is only putting up 70pts most teams would kill for his salary mark my words. I mean leino and laich both got 4.5mil for 6 years. leino even got a 9 mil signing bonus and for only a little over 1 mil more you get richards. and those contracts were given out this year, three years from know they will be even worse as the cap rises and teams try to reach the floor.

oh and by the way you know you can respond to multiple people in one post right? seriously not trying to be a jackass but you can just hit the quote button and then copy and paste multiple quotes into your one.


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07-24-2011, 10:31 AM
  #95
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Then I'll look forward to him lighting it up this year in LA. So what your saying is Richards was our 3rd line center. Agreed. When you play like one that's what you are.

He's gone for numerous reasons and the people that moved him know more than both of us so I would get over it and stop whining. Move on.
Why don't you stuff it? You're a typical, pissy Philadelphia fan. Turn on a player the second he has a bad game/shift etc. No doubt you were cheering in 2010, though. BTW, the multi-quote button is your friend, so unless you're trying to pad your stats, use it.

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07-24-2011, 11:24 AM
  #96
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Lol, Can we get Springer in here.

I really don't see Richards lighting it up in LA this year. He'll bring the toughness and excell on the PK, but i don't see him racking up points.

Carter on the other hand I think will really put up points in Columbus.

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07-24-2011, 11:50 AM
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Lol, Can we get Springer in here.

I really don't see Richards lighting it up in LA this year. He'll bring the toughness and excell on the PK, but i don't see him racking up points.

Carter on the other hand I think will really put up points in Columbus.
Think Carter will be a 40+ goal guy if he plays with Nash the entire season and if Gagne stays healthy on Richards wing with penner he'll put up 70pts imo.

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07-24-2011, 11:51 AM
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Saying, "They chose the ones they wanted and they chose correctly" certainly indicates some sort of crazy gypsy future knowing power.
I wasn't talking about the future. I was talking about now.

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07-24-2011, 11:56 AM
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Think Carter will be a 40+ goal guy if he plays with Nash the entire season and if Gagne stays healthy on Richards wing with penner he'll put up 70pts imo.
Who is gonna pass Carter and Nash the puck? I doubt they'll even play together most of the year.

Penner tends to disappear for long stretches. He was last years version of Ponikarovsky. The Kings will struggle with inconsistencies all season, now that 4 of their top 6 can be considered injury prone.

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07-24-2011, 12:13 PM
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Who is gonna pass Carter and Nash the puck? I doubt they'll even play together most of the year.

Penner tends to disappear for long stretches. He was last years version of Ponikarovsky. The Kings will struggle with inconsistencies all season, now that 4 of their top 6 can be considered injury prone.
Nash plays wing so the whole point of getting Carter was to get a #1 center to play with Nash. No doubt the two will be playing together. Nash can pass and still pot 30+G and Carter can score 40G and still get 30A the other winger will have to be a Leino/Voracek type player aka the playmaker.

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