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Old
07-23-2011, 12:12 AM
  #76
Scottkmlps
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafsFan2342 View Post
haha Brown on 3rd line and Penner on 1st? have you lost you mind?
Haha, Bozak on the first line? Oh wait, that's all the Leafs have.

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07-23-2011, 03:43 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Jungle Boy View Post
Voynov + Hickey

for

Nino Niederreiter OR Comeau + NYI 3rd
I don't closely follow the Kings so I have to ask....

Which ione has established himself as a legitimate top 4 defenseman?

Cause I doubt Snow is looking for another unproven prospect.He might as well wait until 2012-2013 after De Haan has had a full yr in the AHL,then promote the unproven De Haan.

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07-23-2011, 12:09 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I don't closely follow the Kings so I have to ask....

Which ione has established himself as a legitimate top 4 defenseman?

Cause I doubt Snow is looking for another unproven prospect.He might as well wait until 2012-2013 after De Haan has had a full yr in the AHL,then promote the unproven De Haan.
Fair enough.

I would first ask you to take a look at what most of the entire hockey world recognizes as being the deepest and most talent laden prospect pool in the game in its entirety. I only ask you do this because our prospects are at the level where our lowest actual Defencive prospect at this point would be Thomas Hickey a player who while many might think hasn't lived up to the hype of his draft year most people who actually follow our prospects closely realize that he had one set back season due to injury and has developed very well other than that.

Hickey will likely become a very good 3/4 PMD in the game but he is as I say the least of our defensive prospects (that are expected to become impact players).

On to the rest of the list.

Voynov is the fastest skater in the AHL and was again among the top scoring D as well. He is highly regarded by every pundit who has written about him to become a legitimate number 1/2 PMD in the league as soon as he gets his shot.

Nick Deslauriers

See above statements about Voynov only add in that he has a true mean streak and uses it to his advantage. Voynov is the slicker smoother type where Deslauriers is the rougher hard hitting type but is also seen as a top pairing Dman by every pundit that has written about him.

Derek Forbort

6'5" fleshing out in NCAA and looking like another top pairing prospect.

Jake Muzzin

Big PMD who plays equally well at both ends of ice and is projected to be a second pairing guy who has had his first cup of tea with the Kings and did very well.

The big point here is that while you yourself may not follow our prospects too closely I can promise you that your scouting staff and your Gm is well aware of the elite level of talent that we have in our prospect pool as far as Dmen are concerned and would consider them as more valuable imo than your run of the mill #4dman regardless of the fact that they aren't in the NHL yet.

Why aren't they in the NHL yet? It is simply due to numbers. Muzzin and Voynov would be in the NHL for a season by now if it weren't for the fact that we are overloaded with talent on our blue line. Next season one of our vets contracts end and he will likely be replaced by either one of these two and the following year another vet contract goes and we will bring up the next one.

We have an assembly line of elite level talent for our D down on the farm so it would take a ton to pry one away from us. I know it sounds like homerism but Voynov would step in and be your #2 top pairing guy by the mid point of the season. He is just that good.

Our biggest concern is hoping we can keep them all without having to deal them away. Its a great problem to have though.

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Old
07-23-2011, 03:26 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Hickey will likely become a very good 3/4 PMD in the game but he is as I say the least of our defensive prospects (that are expected to become impact players)
Hickey at best will be a bottom pairing defenseman who gets PP time. Let's be honest here the Kings messed up not taking Alzner. I know in general taking a defensive defenseman in the top 5 is a no no, but the 2007 draft was so underwhelming that Alzner would be the exception to that rule. Hickey is not a "top 5" draft pick, he was a guy who should have been picked in the 10-20 range in a weak draft that was picked 4th.

In terms of the Islanders Hickey doesn't have much value. In the same draft in the 3rd round the Islanders drafted what I would consider a poor man's Hickey(small puck moving defenseman) in Mark Katic who so far in 2 years has had a better professional career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
The big point here is that while you yourself may not follow our prospects too closely I can promise you that your scouting staff and your Gm is well aware of the elite level of talent that we have in our prospect pool as far as Dmen are concerned and would consider them as more valuable imo than your run of the mill #4dman regardless of the fact that they aren't in the NHL yet.
It depends if you looking to the future or want to win now. I would feel much safer with a run of the mill #4 guy then most prospect defensemen in terms of what can they do for us now. Nothing against your ratings either but when you have every prospect as a first or second pairing guy it comes accross as over evaluating your prospects. It would be like me saying for the Islanders Nino will be a 50 goal scorer and Strome will get 100 points, sure it's possible but that is a high end projection that most likely won't happen.


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Old
07-23-2011, 03:42 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by nK View Post
I agree with you that Richardson is better than some make him out to be. But what you state above is wrong IMO. Look at last year when the Smyth-Stoll-Williams line carried LA at times. Yes Williams is more creative than Brown but these 3 could really crash and bang around the ice forcing many turnovers. They also all have net presence IMO
i have to agree with that.
But they just did it to the point when the opponents outscouted us.
Smyth net presence takes on option away from the line.
So the opponents learned just to go for Williams because they knew Stoll wasn't able to create a situation and of course the production stopped.
This is exactly how i would stop this line.

The problem is the Kings had to many role players and the opponents adjusted to that.
I think i don't have to mention Stolls point shot in PP here.

For the future we need more hockeyplayers and less role players

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Old
07-23-2011, 04:55 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
Hickey at best will be a bottom pairing defenseman who gets PP time. Let's be honest here the Kings messed up not taking Alzner. I know in general taking a defensive defenseman in the top 5 is a no no, but the 2007 draft was so underwhelming that Alzner would be the exception to that rule. Hickey is not a "top 5" draft pick, he was a guy who should have been picked in the 10-20 range in a weak draft that was picked 4th.

In terms of the Islanders Hickey doesn't have much value. In the same draft in the 3rd round the Islanders drafted what I would consider a poor man's Hickey(small puck moving defenseman) in Mark Katic who so far in 2 years has had a better professional career.



It depends if you looking to the future or want to win now. I would feel much safer with a run of the mill #4 guy then most prospect defensemen in terms of what can they do for us now. Nothing against your ratings either but when you have every prospect as a first or second pairing guy it comes accross as over evaluating your prospects. It would be like me saying for the Islanders Nino will be a 50 goal scorer and Strome will get 100 points, sure it's possible but that is a high end projection that most likely won't happen.


Realistically speaking though you have no actual idea what Hickey will end up fleshing out to become and are likely only speculating based on what you have read likely here on these boards about him. He had a setback season from a big injury of which he has completely recovered and is again a top pairing at best second pairing at worst Dman. He was our last cut last season and lost out to Jake Muzzin more due to need (Muzzin plays mean and we needed that dynamic) than to anything else.

To your second point if you keep reaching for that under achieving next lower shelf, then that is going to show up on the scoreboard and in the win column. I know this because I am King fan and we spent the vast majority of our existence accepting mediocrity in exchange of patients.

I disagree with your analogy also, forwards and defenceman not only have different jobs but also develop into those jobs in different ways and at different times which I am sure you know. What it would be like saying is that a top level defencive prospect who spent an extra two seasons toiling in the minors might be able to step up and become a top pairing D man during his first season.

I can give you a ton of examples throughout the past 40 years of this happening exactly like I have said but if you want recent history you can go with Alzner or if you want King history how about Blake who came in at the end of his ncaa season.

Voynov Hickey and Muzzin have all spent time in the minors and are NHL ready today and have been for a season. All capable of stepping in and after getting their feet wet accomplishing more than your average #4 dman. If it seems like I am saying all of our D prospects will be top pairing guys then it only means that I haven't listed all of our prospects, only the best of them.

We have a few who aren't likely to make the NHL (Campbell etc) or if they do will be bottom pairing types. I would give you an example of one of our D that allot of fans here had written off (not all of us by any means) in Alec Martinez.

He came along 20 games into last season and by the end of it was one of our better Dman and has locked himself in as one of our young PMD's who is either 2nd or 3rd pairing depending on who you ask (as for ice time I say 3rd pairing but the fact that he was a key player down the stretch on the PP and the PK makes him more than a bottom pairing guy) and on most teams would be a second pairing established dynamic young stud with tons of upside.

I mention him because he wasn't too highly regarded by most as I said and yet here he is one of our best young D.

But if the return was right we have Davis Dreweskie who is a very solid stay at home NHL proven Dman who could be exactly what you are looking for. We can afford to move him because we need the space for our significantly more talented kids to get a shot at playing with the team.

Its all a matter of opinion but due to Goring and Tonelli I have followed the Isles for awhile as a 3rd team and can only imagine how huge of an impact a player like Voynov would have on your team.


Last edited by etherialone: 07-23-2011 at 05:06 PM.
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Old
07-23-2011, 05:10 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungle Boy View Post
Voynov + Hickey

for

Nino Niederreiter OR Comeau + NYI 3rd


NINO!!

I like it.

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Old
07-23-2011, 09:03 PM
  #83
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Just one point regarding Voynov. Does he have game speed? I mean guys like Jeff Lazaro were fast but didn't have puck speed like Pavel Bure who didn't seem to slow down with the puck.
I mean if I recall correctly even Yanic Perreault won a fastest skater competition in an IHL all star game?

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Old
07-23-2011, 10:20 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nK View Post
Just one point regarding Voynov. Does he have game speed? I mean guys like Jeff Lazaro were fast but didn't have puck speed like Pavel Bure who didn't seem to slow down with the puck.
I mean if I recall correctly even Yanic Perreault won a fastest skater competition in an IHL all star game?
I believe he does have game speed and pointed out the reasons why in a different post along with some things to verify that opinion besides just watching him skate. I think it is in this thread somewhere.

I think that Deslauriers is our best prospect at game/foot speed but only by preference over Voynov. Both are exceptional skaters.

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Old
07-24-2011, 12:19 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I believe he does have game speed and pointed out the reasons why in a different post along with some things to verify that opinion besides just watching him skate. I think it is in this thread somewhere.

I think that Deslauriers is our best prospect at game/foot speed but only by preference over Voynov. Both are exceptional skaters.
As usual thanks for the insight!

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Old
07-24-2011, 12:26 AM
  #86
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Bernier or Quick for Okposo and pick? Bernier replaces the injury riddled DiPietro. This deal goes down of course after next season when Kings decide their goalie situation.

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07-24-2011, 12:31 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Kingsation8 View Post
Bernier or Quick for Okposo and pick? Bernier replaces the injury riddled DiPietro. This deal goes down of course after next season when Kings decide their goalie situation.
Actually this makes a lot of sense. I know the NYI have a couple solid prospects in the system but IMO they are not in the Quick/Bernier level yet. I can see LA moving one of them and a d prospect to the NYI for Okposo and a pick/prospect.

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07-24-2011, 01:06 AM
  #88
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Actually this makes a lot of sense. I know the NYI have a couple solid prospects in the system but IMO they are not in the Quick/Bernier level yet. I can see LA moving one of them and a d prospect to the NYI for Okposo and a pick/prospect.
Some have mentioned in other posts about trading Voynov and IMO, I do not think Islanders are in real need of a D-Man with Calvin De Haan, Travis Hamonic, Ty Wishart all being in the top 5 in prospects overall for the Islanders. If they need to, they will draft another D-man in the upcoming draft.

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07-24-2011, 02:10 AM
  #89
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Some have mentioned in other posts about trading Voynov and IMO, I do not think Islanders are in real need of a D-Man with Calvin De Haan, Travis Hamonic, Ty Wishart all being in the top 5 in prospects overall for the Islanders. If they need to, they will draft another D-man in the upcoming draft.
The Islanders biggest need is a top 4(more so a top pairing) defenseman who is not going to make mistakes(ie has already played at least a few years although I would settle for 1). In terms of Kings players who make sense from both sides perspective(ie the Kings might trade them and the Islanders might be interested) I think Martinez would be the most likely

I am not that high on Wishart to be honest, He could be a #4 guy but it looks more like his high end will be a bottom pairing servicable defenseman(which are a dime a dozen on the UFA market). De Haan is a year away. Hamonic to me is the stud of the bunch, he is like a poor man's Shea Weber who i think could be a solid #2 defenseman in a few years.

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07-24-2011, 05:06 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Kingsation8 View Post
Bernier or Quick for Okposo and pick? Bernier replaces the injury riddled DiPietro. This deal goes down of course after next season when Kings decide their goalie situation.
Isles have three quality goalie prospects.Nilson and Poulin are coming off strong seasons.Koskinen struggled this season.

They got very good goaltending from 26 yr old Montoya and rewarded him with a 1 yr extension.

The isles are not trading Okposo for a goalie.

Just a suggestion:let's try to stay out of fantasy trades and discuss realistic trades

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07-24-2011, 05:13 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Kingsation8 View Post
Some have mentioned in other posts about trading Voynov and IMO, I do not think Islanders are in real need of a D-Man with Calvin De Haan, Travis Hamonic, Ty Wishart all being in the top 5 in prospects overall for the Islanders. If they need to, they will draft another D-man in the upcoming draft.
Isles have 24 yr old MacDonald at the nhl level.

Isles also have Donovan,a pmd they are high on.He'll spend his 1st yr at Bridgepport in 2011-2012.Scout Ken Morrow was quoted,saying they expect he will be pushing for an NHL job before the season ends.

He had something like 5 pts in his first 6 ahl games.

It's gonna be interesting to see if De Haan or Donovan makes it to the isles and sticks first.

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07-24-2011, 06:05 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Isles have three quality goalie prospects.Nilson and Poulin are coming off strong seasons.Koskinen struggled this season.

They got very good goaltending from 26 yr old Montoya and rewarded him with a 1 yr extension.

The isles are not trading Okposo for a goalie.

Just a suggestion:let's try to stay out of fantasy trades and discuss realistic trades
Ya I've been a Montoya fan for awile and was happy to see him make the most of his opportunity last season. Know if only someone would give Anton Khudobin a chance!

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07-24-2011, 07:38 PM
  #93
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The Islanders biggest need is a top 4(more so a top pairing) defenseman who is not going to make mistakes(ie has already played at least a few years although I would settle for 1). In terms of Kings players who make sense from both sides perspective(ie the Kings might trade them and the Islanders might be interested) I think Martinez would be the most likely

I am not that high on Wishart to be honest, He could be a #4 guy but it looks more like his high end will be a bottom pairing servicable defenseman(which are a dime a dozen on the UFA market). De Haan is a year away. Hamonic to me is the stud of the bunch, he is like a poor man's Shea Weber who i think could be a solid #2 defenseman in a few years.
Great

Martinez isn't a number four D man in the eyes of the Kings, they see him as possibly developing into a top pairing caliber PMD with a very solid stay at home game. Many believe that he will top out as a #3 guy who leads the second pairing.

As someone who has a very complete knowledge of Amart's game I see him developing into that second pairing leader who will take control of your second PP unit and play a smart simple game in his own end but at a level of competency that will set him slightly above allot of his peers who play in that position.

The player you guys keep describing that you want from us is Davis Drewiskie.

DavisD has played in 97 NHL games for the Kings is 26 yo and is 6'2" 218 and his game stats are 97gp
1g 15a 16pts -2. He plays a smart stay at home game who doesn't kill you in the offencive zone. He has some grit to his game but it isn't at the level that I would list as one of his top assets.

He is a good skater who makes his living by keeping the front of the net as clear as possible while using his feet to keep in position (he isn't a run around type but more the type of D who is a competent enough skater to where he is able to remain in the area's of need without too much effort).

He has been our #7 due to numbers but each and every time he is asked to step in cold he does so as if he hasn't missed a game at all. He is a steady everyday player who many King fans would like to see get his chance somewhere as he is a redundancy for us here.

The Kings as an org thought highly enough of him to where they gave him an extended contract (which is very very cheap) knowing that he would likely only be our #7.

He is exactly the player you keep guys keep describing and one of our older kids who we would be interested in moving.

Make an offer or really there doesn't seem to be good trading potential between us based on what our visiting Isle fans have been saying so far.

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07-25-2011, 05:18 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Isles have three quality goalie prospects.Nilson and Poulin are coming off strong seasons.Koskinen struggled this season.

They got very good goaltending from 26 yr old Montoya and rewarded him with a 1 yr extension.

The isles are not trading Okposo for a goalie.

Just a suggestion:let's try to stay out of fantasy trades and discuss realistic trades
Bud, you obviously do not know how high Bernier's upside is. While yes, this deal does not look to be "realistic" for both parties. Bernier's value is either equal or higher than Okposo's value. How often do you come by a projected franchise goalie? Isles fans and Kings fans should both know with how our goalies have panned out this last decade or so. DiPietro? I do not see Koskinen, Poulin, or Khudobin on the top 50 prospect rankings while Bernier is ranked at #3. Okposo could easily be replaced by another two-way player like Nino even. At the point the Kings are at, we need more "depth" players if we are willing to make a cup run, and Okposo would fit in quite well. Let's not get carried away by calling it a fantasy trade..

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07-30-2011, 01:46 AM
  #95
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Bud, you obviously do not know how high Bernier's upside is. While yes, this deal does not look to be "realistic" for both parties. Bernier's value is either equal or higher than Okposo's value. How often do you come by a projected franchise goalie? Isles fans and Kings fans should both know with how our goalies have panned out this last decade or so. DiPietro? I do not see Koskinen, Poulin, or Khudobin on the top 50 prospect rankings while Bernier is ranked at #3. Okposo could easily be replaced by another two-way player like Nino even. At the point the Kings are at, we need more "depth" players if we are willing to make a cup run, and Okposo would fit in quite well. Let's not get carried away by calling it a fantasy trade..
I know that teams can win the SC without having a franchise goalie in net.

Not only do many fans and media think 22 yr old Okposo is likely the gonna wear the C for the isles,but we have had coaches like Scott Gordon discuss how soon Okposo would be named captain.At 21 his teammates voted to give him an A.If he doesn't wear the C in the future,it'll be because the isles used in on Tavares instead.Certainly not a bad choice since they are building around him.

Isles with 3 quality goalie prospects and 26 yr old Montoya are not trading 22 yr old Okposo for a goalie.So yeah,the suggestion of KO for a goalie is fantasy league when the Isles wouldn't do it.

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08-06-2011, 06:50 PM
  #96
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I think we are deep enough to make a deal that sent JJ away and absorb the loss without missing a beat. That said I am a big JJ fan and know that the Kings feel that he is a great up and coming young D.

As far as the op's proposal it is an interesting suggestion but the Isles would have to add something significant to make it work. Okposo is a great young talent who's best years are ahead of him but has had a couple of hit and miss seasons where JJ is getting better and better.

I don't hate the proposal but if we were to want to move JJ I believe that we would want and get allot more than KO in return. From the Isles pov I can't imagine them saying anything but yes because JJ is exactly what they need. If we were to move JJ for KO the isles would need to add a top prospect or a 1st and a little more which makes a deal unlikely.

We have several d prospects who can step in and by mid season by at the very least solid 5/6 players and likely 3/4's. Voynov as top pairing potential and would likely be a fit within a full season for replacing JJ. The exchange would be that we would gain offence and at best lose an equal amount of D. That isn't to say that VV isn't a competent D type but with his wheels and O skills it is only natural to expect him to give up D in favor of jumping into the O.

After him we have Greene's replacement in Muzzin who will be a superior stay at home type due to his offencive skills. I think that Muzzin could end up becoming a very solid 2nd pairing player who ends up being a clutch PMD type for us. He has always had great O skills and a bit of grit but now he has rounded out his D game well enough to where he is a very solid option for us.

NDes is a couple of years away from his cup a tea but is my favorite D in our system and is a top pairing type.

I also see Hickey becoming a second pairing PMD who like Muzzin and VV is ready to play in the NHL today. Of course each of these three will need the better part of a season to make the adjustment to the NHL game but like Amart will do well enough soon enough into their first full seasons to where they can completely cover the majority of their rookie mistakes and should turn into our young exceptional core of D for the next decade.

Of course the only way to really up their value to fair market is to get them ice time at the NHL level which is why I am sort of surprised to see DavisD still on our team. I like Davis and think he has a pretty good 3rd pairing NHL caliber game but he is completely redundant on our team and is the single road block on our development program.

I have to believe that DavisD will be either moved or moved up to a forward spot before the end of this coming season to make room for one of the kids or that we will move one of the kids without establishing what fair market value actually is for them before doing so.

Move JJ? we could but I would look at every option before I decided. I like KO but don't think a straight swap is fair enough. I wouldn't take NN, not that I don't think he is a very good young talent but he has a couple of skating issues and if you watch him closely plays with his head down too often for comfort imo.

He will overcome these problems and become a very good scoring winger imo but he isn't there yet and we are loaded for Bear so picking up an unestablished winger at this point is a pretty risky gamble.
so in other words you think the isles would need to add more in order to make it work.

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08-07-2011, 10:26 AM
  #97
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so in other words you think the isles would need to add more in order to make it work.
I would hope that point would be very very obvious.

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Old
08-09-2011, 06:31 PM
  #98
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the isles are not going to trade Okposo or Nino anytime soon

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08-09-2011, 06:55 PM
  #99
Buddy The Elf
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Originally Posted by YanksIslesBillsRaps View Post
the isles are not going to trade Okposo or Nino anytime soon
What if say... Brad Richardson was going the other way? I honestly didn't even know Nino Bettencourt played hockey either.

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08-09-2011, 07:19 PM
  #100
YanksIslesBillsRaps
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
What if say... Brad Richardson was going the other way? I honestly didn't even know Nino Bettencourt played hockey either.
i highly doubt it, Okposo is a big part of the islanders future and may be their next captain and Nino a nice prospect coming off a great season in the WHA

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