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Old
07-23-2011, 01:46 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm no Coburn defender, but he's at least shown improvement. After he was hit by that shot a couple seasons ago he seemed pretty timid, but he's coming out of that shell. He was much better overall on defense in 10-11 than he was in 09-10. Hopefully he continues improving and doesn't regress.

I doubt the guy will ever put up real points or be an offensive threat, unfortunately. I don't think he's good enough on defense right now to truly compensate for that, but he's been showing flashes of great potential/ability with increasing frequency. He needs to be more consistent, and hopefully he can lead a pairing soon.
I remember when I was one of very few Coburn-defenders on this board. He was even thrown on the bottom pairing for a period of time, and people were saying he would never recover.

Everyone and their mother wanted him traded.

Then he slowly began to pull out, and the 2010 playoffs were his reawakening. This past season he only got better.

I'm extremely glad we kept him through his downturn and slumps.

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07-23-2011, 01:50 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I remember when I was one of very few Coburn-defenders on this board. He was even thrown on the bottom pairing for a period of time, and people were saying he would never recover.

Everyone and their mother wanted him traded.

Then he slowly began to pull out, and the 2010 playoffs were his reawakening. This past season he only got better.

I'm extremely glad we kept him through his downturn and slumps.
He's winning my respect.

I wanted to trade him and keep Carle. Now, I'm increasingly seeing Carle as the more expendable of the two.

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07-23-2011, 01:51 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's what I expect, because if we are going to keep them it's what they're going to need to do in coming years...sooner rather than later. Coburn has shown the potential to develop into that. Carle hasn't, though. He seems to have the talent, but very often his progression seems stagnant.

In the last two seasons, my trust in Coburn has increased. My trust in Carle, not so much. I was a much bigger fan of Carle than I was of Coburn, too.
Here we go again. Carle's progress and development has taken the same path as Coburn's and Meszaros for that matter. All three have had ups and downs to this point in their career's. Stating Carle has been stagnant is laughable. He has progressed very nicely since he came here from TB and has gotten better and better as a Flyer. And we don't need them to "lead a pairing". We need them to just continue to develop into solid young defenseman. Defenseman who can compliment their partners and continue to make a solid group of defenseman.

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He's winning my respect.

I wanted to trade him and keep Carle. Now, I'm increasingly seeing Carle as the more expendable of the two.
You found out just how wrong you were this past off season, in how Carle is expendable.

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07-23-2011, 01:56 PM
  #179
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Carle wasn't expendable because management wanted to get rid of Carter and Richards. If they'd wanted to keep those two, Carle likely isn't a Flyer today.

As for his development, well, I'll take a page out of your book: You're just wrong. Coburn and Mez were both noticeably better last season then in their previous season. Carle...meh. Sadly, your Carle-lust blinds you to this fact.

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07-23-2011, 02:01 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Carle wasn't expendable because management wanted to get rid of Carter and Richards. If they'd wanted to keep those two, Carle likely isn't a Flyer today.
Pure speculation on your part. Flyers management has stated on record numerous times that one of their key off season goals was keeping the defense intact. I told you numerous times due to the Pronger injury situation why they weren't going to move Carle. That opinion has been verified by sources close to the team. You missed the boat on it before the off season moves were made, and your still reading that situation incorrectly.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
As for his development, well, I'll take a page out of your book: You're just wrong. Coburn and Mez were both noticeably better last season then in their previous season. Carle...meh. Sadly, your Carle-lust blinds you to this fact.
You can't substantiate that as fact. Just like the majority of your posts. Carle made significant growth in various areas of his game and the stats indicate that. Or you can just go with ...meh! Pretty weak on your part.
There is no lust. Only an informed opinion based on the facts.

I wish you would take a page out of my book and deal in the facts.

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07-23-2011, 02:21 PM
  #181
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I wish you would drop your insane arrogance and realize you haven't come close to proving anyone here wrong.

Coburn improved greatly last season
Mez improved greatly last season.

Carle...mostly the same.

That was incredibly obvious. You don't see it because clearly Carle can do no wrong in your eyes, as you've made abundantly clear in all of your posts. You dismiss all his weaknesses and inflate his strengths. Now you're inflating his development.


The reason they could say they wanted the defense intact is because they knew that they would be trading Carter and/or Richards. Otherwise, those statements don't make sense. You don't go into an offseason and trade your two best forwards as a spur-of-the moment deal. If they wanted to keep Richards and Carter, dropping Versteeg wouldn't have been enough...and they said they wanted Leino, so who else was there after that? Carle. However, as I said, they knew they'd be dropping someone big. Therefore they didn't need to move Carle. It all comes down to if they wanted to keep their stars, and they didn't. Of course, you will ignore this and haughtily proclaim it to be nonsense without providing anything of substance to refute it. It's also worth noting that the organization DID proclaim for months that re-signing Leino was a priority, and that didn't happen...so I'd take what they said about keeping the D intact with a grain of salt.


You are the most biased person in this thread. Debating with you is pointless, and I'm done with it. I'll be ignoring your reply where you proclaim everything I've said to be pointless while saying "numbers!" "media!" "incorrect!" while not actually proving anything.

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07-23-2011, 02:28 PM
  #182
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Coburn improved to the point that when Pronger got hurt, he and Timonen took over the top pair roles against shutdown defenders.

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07-23-2011, 02:30 PM
  #183
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I'm really hopefull that Mezaros and coburn can maintain the #2,#3 positions on this team for a long time. I think Coburn will be the perfect #2, while Mezaros has the ability to hold his own pair.

hopefull...

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07-23-2011, 02:35 PM
  #184
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It's my opinion that Mez still has a ways to go before I'd trust him with that. He's shown a lot of promise though.

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07-23-2011, 02:40 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I wish you would drop your insane arrogance and realize you haven't come close to proving anyone here wrong.


Coburn improved greatly last season
Mez improved greatly last season.

Carle...mostly the same.



That was incredibly obvious. You don't see it because clearly Carle can do no wrong in your eyes, as you've made abundantly clear in all of your posts. You dismiss all his weaknesses and inflate his strengths. Now you're inflating his development.
I have no need to attack you personally and I'll stick to just the facts.

Carle last Season became one of the top +/- players in the NHL last Season. He became one of the top playmakers among defenseman in the NHL, which included leading the NHL in defenseman scoring at ES. There are some areas of his game where he was among the elite defenseman in the NHL. How can you possibly come to the conclusion that he didn't improve and grow as a player last year? That he hasn't grown and improved as a player since the trade from TB? There is no factual evidence that you can provide to state that Carle did not preogress as a player last Season. There is oodles of factual evidence to prove that he did. There is no inflating his development. There is only the facts. And the facts aren't on your side.

A prime example of how you don't have the facts is when earlier today you tried to blow off Carle's assists totals because you asked I wonder how many of Carle's assists were weak secondary assists? As a way of foolishly downplaying his playmaking accomplishments last Season. When if you look at the advanced stats, Carle was 8th in the League among NHL defenseman in primary assists per 60 minutes. This fact was in the article I posted to start this thread. You simply chose to ignore it.

And this is the about the 3rd time where your interpretation of my statements and opinions on Carle have been woefully inaccurate. No where have i hinted at, implied, or suggested that Carle can do no wrong. That is your hang up and not my problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post


The reason they could say they wanted the defense intact is because they knew that they would be trading Carter and/or Richards. Otherwise, those statements don't make sense. You don't go into an offseason and trade your two best forwards as a spur-of-the moment deal. If they wanted to keep Richards and Carter, dropping Versteeg wouldn't have been enough...and they said they wanted Leino, so who else was there after that? Carle. However, as I said, they knew they'd be dropping someone big. Therefore they didn't need to move Carle. It all comes down to if they wanted to keep their stars, and they didn't. Of course, you will ignore this and haughtily proclaim it to be nonsense without providing anything of substance to refute it. It's also worth noting that the organization DID proclaim for months that re-signing Leino was a priority, and that didn't happen...so I'd take what they said about keeping the D intact with a grain of salt.
That makes zero sense. Your assuming, and assuming without any facts to substantiate your assumptions, that if they didn't move Richards or Carter, that they would have moved Carle. You can't prove that. I can prove that both Holmgren and Luukko are on record as stating that they wanted to keep the defense intact. Leino was a priority for them to keep. They just couldn't meet his demands. Again in this situation the facts back my premise up. They don't support your speculative opinion.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You are the most biased person in this thread. Debating with you is pointless, and I'm done with it. I'll be ignoring your reply where you proclaim everything I've said to be pointless while saying "numbers!" "media!" "incorrect!" while not actually proving anything.
There is zero bias in my opinion on Carle. I can actually provide the facts to back up my opinion. You can't. You just repeatedly state that I can't prove anything. When I obviously can. Every single availble piece of information from credible sources supports my opinion on Carle.

If I was you, I would quit debating this with me also. As you couldn't possibly be more off base with your opinion on Carle.


Last edited by VanSciver: 07-23-2011 at 03:08 PM.
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07-23-2011, 02:42 PM
  #186
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I think last year having no pressure to play against the Crosby's and Ovechkins in the league really did his development wonders. He was able to settle down and just get on with his game. He got stronger every game, and when pronger went down, he had his call on the top D lines, and looked like our best defenseman.

I just hope he can do it again this year.

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07-23-2011, 02:43 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I'm really hopefull that Mezaros and coburn can maintain the #2,#3 positions on this team for a long time. I think Coburn will be the perfect #2, while Mezaros has the ability to hold his own pair.

hopefull...
I agree. I think in time Meszaros can be a lead defenseman. He has all the physical tools. It's just whether he can put it together. Coburn has shown in stretches to be a very strong defensive D man and has good wheels and some offensive ability. Along with Carle, the Flyers have 3 promising young D men. None of them may ever get to that level. But there is always to option to add a player who is on that level via UFA when Timonen is off the books.

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07-23-2011, 02:47 PM
  #188
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I don't think Carle will ever be able to anchor a pairing personally. Offensive defenseman that can anchor a pairing are seriously rare, and Carle isn't good enough in his own end to be considered anything but an offensive defenseman.

* please don't confuse two way d with offensive D.

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07-23-2011, 02:51 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I don't think Carle will ever be able to anchor a pairing personally. Offensive defenseman that can anchor a pairing are seriously rare, and Carle isn't good enough in his own end to be considered anything but an offensive defenseman.

* please don't confuse two way d with offensive D.
I probably agree with you. I don't really see Carle as ever being a lead defenseman on a team. Although he can be a solid compliment to a team's #1 defenseman.


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07-23-2011, 02:58 PM
  #190
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He already is a solid compliment to Pronger

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07-23-2011, 03:05 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
I probably agree with you. I don't really see Carle as ever being a lead defenseman on a team. Although he could be a solid compliment to a team's #1 defenseman.
I don't understand this. You've pumped him up incessantly. Now, after at least one (more) person put forth a compelling argument - having little to do with ASA - you're kind of backtracking to what he really is.

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07-23-2011, 03:23 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I don't understand this. You've pumped him up incessantly. Now, after at least one (more) person put forth a compelling argument - having little to do with ASA - you're kind of backtracking to what he really is.
This thread goes kind of like this:

VanSciver: Carle is a great dman, top 4 guy easily

RestOfUs: No way! Carle is a just a top 4 guy.

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07-23-2011, 03:38 PM
  #193
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I don't understand this. You've pumped him up incessantly. Now, after at least one (more) person put forth a compelling argument - having little to do with ASA - you're kind of backtracking to what he really is.
I'm not backtracking at all. All of my posts on Carle have labeled him as the same player. You are woefully incorrect. All I've done is give an informed opinion based on the facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
This thread goes kind of like this:

VanSciver: Carle is a great dman, top 4 guy easily

RestOfUs: No way! Carle is a just a top 4 guy.
Carle is a top 4 defenseman. And I have never used the adjective great to describe Carle in any way. You are also incorrect.

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07-23-2011, 07:32 PM
  #194
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Bored, so some more interesting 2010-11 stats.


Giveaways Per Minute of Ice Time
Timonen - 0.0212
Pronger - 0.0231
Meszaros - 0.0234
Coburn - 0.0295
Carle - 0.0327
ODonnell - 0.429

Takeaways Per Minute
Timonen - 0.0233
Meszaros - 0.0199
Coburn - 0.0185
Carle - 0.0183
Pronger - 0.0169
ODonnell - 0.0119

Hits Per Minute
Meszaros - 0.1105
Coburn - 0.1025
Timonen - 0.0521
ODonnell - 0.0421
Pronger - 0.0365
Carle - 0.0283

Blocked Shots Per Minute
Pronger - 0.1013
Timonen - 0.0950
Carle - 0.0871
Meszaros - 0.0812
Coburn - 0.0770
ODonnell - 0.0604

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07-23-2011, 10:40 PM
  #195
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Coburn improved to the point that when Pronger got hurt, he and Timonen took over the top pair roles against shutdown defenders.
Coburn did the same thing we've seen before, he got his **** together, played a lot more physical, and was far more effective.

Do it for a full season. Guy is all over the place.

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07-24-2011, 10:49 AM
  #196
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I'm not worried about Coburn, because when **** hits the fan, he's always there or thereabouts. He always turns up in the play-offs, and is the type of player that can really shut-down serious attacking threats.

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07-24-2011, 11:06 AM
  #197
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I think Carle gets a little over looked by some flyers fans. I'm not saying he's a number one or even a number two but he is no less then a solid #4 and even a #3 on most teams. If he continues to put up points this season say around 5G and 40A I think it's a no-brainer to try and re-sign him. If the price is right I think he'll be re-signed by mid-season if not then I expect him to walk. Between Coburn and Carle I have to go with Coburn because of his size even though Carle has the offensive edge. I can't tell you how many times I've seen Coburn take a shot from the point on PP only to hit the guy standing two feet in front of him.

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07-24-2011, 01:10 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
I think Carle gets a little over looked by some flyers fans. I'm not saying he's a number one or even a number two but he is no less then a solid #4 and even a #3 on most teams. If he continues to put up points this season say around 5G and 40A I think it's a no-brainer to try and re-sign him. If the price is right I think he'll be re-signed by mid-season if not then I expect him to walk. Between Coburn and Carle I have to go with Coburn because of his size even though Carle has the offensive edge. I can't tell you how many times I've seen Coburn take a shot from the point on PP only to hit the guy standing two feet in front of him.
That's probably because it doesn't happen that often...Obviously he's no scoring machine from the blueline, but I can't remember him doing this at all this past season. Not to say it didn't happen at all, but I doubt it's a regular occurrence.

As for Carle, I think a lot of people have a misconception about just how good a defenseman has to be in order to be a #2 or #3 defenseman on an average NHL team. There are #2's and 3's with plainly visible holes in their game all over the league. Carle is a solid #3 guy on most of the teams in the league.


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 07-24-2011 at 01:16 PM.
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07-24-2011, 02:13 PM
  #199
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That's probably because it doesn't happen that often...Obviously he's no scoring machine from the blueline, but I can't remember him doing this at all this past season. Not to say it didn't happen at all, but I doubt it's a regular occurrence.

As for Carle, I think a lot of people have a misconception about just how good a defenseman has to be in order to be a #2 or #3 defenseman on an average NHL team. There are #2's and 3's with plainly visible holes in their game all over the league. Carle is a solid #3 guy on most of the teams in the league.
I didn't say Coburn did it often last year. I didn't specify a time frame because I meant over his career as a Flyer and yes he improved last year in that regard as well as several others. As far as Matt Carle I said exactly what you said "he is a #3 on most teams" so I assume you were referring to other posters on this thread.

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07-24-2011, 02:32 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
As for Carle, I think a lot of people have a misconception about just how good a defenseman has to be in order to be a #2 or #3 defenseman on an average NHL team. There are #2's and 3's with plainly visible holes in their game all over the league. Carle is a solid #3 guy on most of the teams in the league.
This.

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