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Old
07-24-2011, 02:55 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
I have not had time to read this thread thru, but I'll make the assumption that Tort's had a lot of input on this decision.

If Tort's thinks he can turn Wolski around, then it's worth a try IMO.

By no means am I a fan of Wolski. I pretty much think his game is useless. He's Enver Lisin 2.0. He is a lot of wasted, unfocused talent. I think the chances of him changing my perception and expectations are slim....at best.
Oh come on. Lisin is a minor leaguer. If you want to compare Wolski to anybody, it's Zherdev, except Wolski manages to put up some points in the play-offs.

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07-24-2011, 03:00 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Prustqvist24 View Post
Someone just needs to light a fire under his ass
That someone would be Wolski.

The reason he gets the criticism he does is because he fails to display a peak level of competitiveness. He's waiting for the play to come to him too often. In Tort's words he plays the game "with a twelve foot stick".

I hope he can turn it around. I'm not holding my breath.

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07-24-2011, 03:05 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
I have not had time to read this thread thru, but I'll make the assumption that Tort's had a lot of input on this decision.

If Tort's thinks he can turn Wolski around, then it's worth a try IMO.

By no means am I a fan of Wolski. I pretty much think his game is useless. He's Enver Lisin 2.0. He is a lot of wasted, unfocused talent. I think the chances of him changing my perception and expectations are slim....at best.

05-06: 9 games, 6 points
06-07: 76 games, 50 points
07-08: 77 games, 48 points
08-09: 78 games, 42 points
09-10: 80 games, 65 points

If I told you those stats were from a 24 year old player, he'd sound like a pretty good NHLer, right?

10-11: 73 games, 35 points

They're Wolski's stats. Last year was a bad year for Wolski. He's 25 now. Younger than Cally. Older than Dubinsky by 2 months, older than Zuccarello by only a year and a half. Your opinion of him is clearly uninformed (which, on a side note, seems to be the case for a majority of the opinions posted on this website in general). I'm really not sure how one down season, the worst in your career, turns you from a very promising young player, which Wolski undeniably was up through 09-10, into a useless one. Especially when that one terrible season is on the heels of a fantastic, 65 point one.

I mean seriously. Why bother posting an opinion on a player if you don't really know the player as well as you're advertising? Enver Lisin is also 25 years old. He was drafted in the same draft as Wolski. Guess what? He has 42 CAREER points. Wolski has surpassed that in a single season 4 times already, and not counting 05-06 when he played 9 games, has only played in 5 seasons.

The negative attitude towards Wolski on these boards is SO unwarranted.

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07-24-2011, 03:14 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
That someone would be Wolski.

The reason he gets the criticism he does is because he fails to display a peak level of competitiveness. He's waiting for the play to come to him too often. In Tort's words he plays the game "with a twelve foot stick".

I hope he can turn it around. I'm not holding my breath.
Exactly. The only one who can help him is himself. He's had 5 different coaches throughout his career so I don't think it matters what type of coach he has. He's played with talented players such as Sakic, Stastny, and Hejduk so it's not like he hasn't had the opportunity to play with good linemates.

Wolski needs to bust his butt if he wants to play on the 1st line. He needs to show Torts in training camp that he's changed, and that he will play with a high degree of competitiveness and intensity each game. I'm a bit skeptical but hoping for the team's sake that it all comes together for him.

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07-24-2011, 03:23 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Exactly. The only one who can help him is himself. He's had 5 different coaches throughout his career so I don't think it matters what type of coach he has. He's played with talented players such as Sakic, Stastny, and Hejduk so it's not like he hasn't had the opportunity to play with good linemates.

Wolski needs to bust his butt if he wants to play on the 1st line. He needs to show Torts in training camp that he's changed, and that he will play with a high degree of competitiveness and intensity each game. I'm a bit skeptical but hoping for the team's sake that it all comes together for him.
And he's produced. Look at his career. He's had five seasons in the NHL and he's had between 42 and 65 points in all but the last. 35, 42, 48, 50, 65. When he's played top-six minutes with top-six talents he has produced. Obviously, he needs to be motivated, but clearly the coach you have and the players you play with also motivate you, and each in different ways. Wolski has shown the ability to produce when playing with talent. Obviously the responsibility is his to keep the fire lit, but you never know whether Torts, or the chance to play with Richards will be the kind of thing to ignite him. I don't know what the point you're trying to make about "he's had the chance to play with talented players" is, since he produced when he played with them. It's not like he played with Stastny, Sakic, Hejduk, etc. and didn't produce. He scored 50 points his first full season in the NHL and 65 points one year ago. One rough year and all of a sudden, it goes from he has a bright future (the opinion on these boards about 400 days ago) to he's useless, I doubt he can impress Torts enough to stick on this team, he needs to learn to do this, this and this.

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07-24-2011, 03:46 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Prustqvist24 View Post
And he's produced. Look at his career. He's had five seasons in the NHL and he's had between 42 and 65 points in all but the last. 35, 42, 48, 50, 65. When he's played top-six minutes with top-six talents he has produced. Obviously, he needs to be motivated, but clearly the coach you have and the players you play with also motivate you, and each in different ways. Wolski has shown the ability to produce when playing with talent. Obviously the responsibility is his to keep the fire lit, but you never know whether Torts, or the chance to play with Richards will be the kind of thing to ignite him. I don't know what the point you're trying to make about "he's had the chance to play with talented players" is, since he produced when he played with them. It's not like he played with Stastny, Sakic, Hejduk, etc. and didn't produce. He scored 50 points his first full season in the NHL and 65 points one year ago. One rough year and all of a sudden, it goes from he has a bright future (the opinion on these boards about 400 days ago) to he's useless, I doubt he can impress Torts enough to stick on this team, he needs to learn to do this, this and this.
Because with Wolski's skill, he should probably be putting up more than 18-23 goals playing with such talented centers. When I see Wolski, I see a player who is capable of doing more with what he has, in the same vein as a Kovalev, Zherdev, etc.

While I don't think Wolski needs to impress Torts to stick on the team, he will need to impress Torts if he wants to play on the first line. In the playoffs, Wolski averaged the least ice time of any forward other than Drury. Torts' confidence in Wolski eroded as the season went on so I do think that Wolski will need to show Torts that he can be trusted in a more important role.

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07-24-2011, 03:54 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
People are so quick to write off EC and Wolski, but forget how many shootouts this team won because of them. last time I checked, a SOW is two points and as big a failure the playoffs were, we dont qualify without them.

Wolski is still young and I can see him have a 25/50 season.

Plus it's his walk year.
If they played better and with more consistency we don't have to go to the SO or even OT to win. That's where people hav the problem

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07-24-2011, 04:03 PM
  #58
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Wolski's a good player coming off a bad season. If he has another bad year don't give him a QO and let him walk.

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07-24-2011, 04:22 PM
  #59
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I'm totally serious about my view on Wolski. It's a view shared by many who follow the NHL. Even when his production was decent he was considered far from a complete player. That has a lot to do with why we are his 3rd franchise in a very short career.

I only care what he does in a Ranger uniform. Thus far his performance has been marginal at best. Hopefully he can turn it around. The Rangers are willing to give him that chance, so perhaps he can.

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07-24-2011, 05:40 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
I have not had time to read this thread thru, but I'll make the assumption that Tort's had a lot of input on this decision.

If Tort's thinks he can turn Wolski around, then it's worth a try IMO.

By no means am I a fan of Wolski. I pretty much think his game is useless. He's Enver Lisin 2.0. He is a lot of wasted, unfocused talent. I think the chances of him changing my perception and expectations are slim....at best.
gimme a break

hes averaged something like 17 goals and 30 assists per year since hes been in the league. and he was +6 for us so its not like he cant play 5 on 5.

hes one of the best stick handlers in the entire league. hes one of our most dangerous offensive players and hes able to create chances on his own. all things we sorely need. hes not ryan callahan but so what. hes got solid skills.

for a team as offensively weak and goal challenged as we are, i would say a guy like this should have spot on our top 9. its not like we've got alot of other options.

no matter what you think, you cant have an entire team of brandon prusts and expect to win games 2-1 every night.

i swear if he was a rangers draft choice, most of you critics would be singing an entirely different tune about him. the guy flat out gets a bum rap around here.

and to call his game uselss. well thats just stup......silly.


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07-24-2011, 05:41 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
gimme a break

hes averaged something like 17 goals and 30 assists per year since hes been in the league. and he was +6 for us so its not like he cant play 5 on 5.

hes one of the best stick handlers in the entire league. hes one of our most dangerous offensive players and hes able to create chances on his own. all things we sorely need. hes not ryan callahan but so what. hes got solid skills.

for a team as offensively weak and goal challenged as we are, i would say a guy like this should have spot on our top 9. its not like we've got alot of other options.

no matter what you think, you cant have an entire team of brandon prusts and expect to win games 12-1 every night.

i swear if he was a rangers draft choice, most of you critics would be singing an entirely different tune about him. the guy flat out gets a bum rap around here.

and to call his game uselss. well thats just stup......silly.
This argument works for some guys, but I don't think it can be used for W2 who has been shipped to three different teams in a relatively short career thus far.

He has the talent, he has the skill, but if he's scoring 40 points that's not enough.

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07-24-2011, 05:53 PM
  #62
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I don't like Wolski but I don't think that Zuccarello or anyone else is any better right now. Does that make him a first line player by default? Hell, no. The people that need to learn something are the people that think that talented but lazy or unfocused players 'wake up' mid-way through their NHL careers and smell the coffee. Almost 20 years later, journeyman Kovalev is still criticized for the same bad habits he's had all his life.

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07-24-2011, 05:56 PM
  #63
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Give Wolski a consistent line and consistent mintues and the kids gonna score.

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07-24-2011, 06:24 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by markman34 View Post
Give Wolski a consistent line and consistent mintues and the kids gonna score.
The last thing Wolski should be getting is any sense of entitlement whatsoever.

I have my issues with Tortorella, but one thing I do appreciate is that hes not going to deal with anyone dogging it out there. Its one of his best attributes as an NHL coach.

Wolski will get a consistent line and consistent minutes when hes able to produce a consistent Wolski each game.

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07-24-2011, 06:26 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
This argument works for some guys, but I don't think it can be used for W2 who has been shipped to three different teams in a relatively short career thus far.

He has the talent, he has the skill, but if he's scoring 40 points that's not enough.
He's played for three teams, including the one that drafted him. He got traded to the Coyotes, who are kind of a cluster**** right now anyways, and it didn't work out for him in the desert at the start of last year (he was great after the trade/playoffs the year before) so they traded him to us. He hasn't been shipped to three different teams though. He's been traded twice and the first time it was for a pretty good return as well, with Mueller going ot the Avs and doing very well for them before disappearing from the face of hockey. That trade went down in the middle of Wolski's 65 point year and Phoenix picked him up for their playoff push. He was good in the playoffs for them too. Then the next year, he got off to a bad start, didn't pick it up and was traded to us. He was good for us in the playoffs too.

Again, just getting a worse rep than is really warranted. He could EASILY bounce back to being a 50-60 point player this year, with or without Richards.

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07-24-2011, 06:30 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
I don't like Wolski but I don't think that Zuccarello or anyone else is any better right now. Does that make him a first line player by default? Hell, no. The people that need to learn something are the people that think that talented but lazy or unfocused players 'wake up' mid-way through their NHL careers and smell the coffee. Almost 20 years later, journeyman Kovalev is still criticized for the same bad habits he's had all his life.
He doesn't need to "wake up". He had ONE bad year. His game is not a grind it out game. He doesn't look as intense as you'd like him to. Oh well. Prior to last season, he had put up over 40 points every year he'd been in the NHL, and was coming off of 65. The first time he was traded it was for a decent return and he was in the middle of a great season; Phoenix WANTED him for their playoff push, and he did what they wanted him to do, performing very well all to the end of the season and in the playoffs for them. The next year started poorly, he got shipped here midway through, continued to have a mediocre year (was on pace for ~42 points here) and now he's a useless player who needs to wake up and all this other stuff. He's no all-star. He's a young, inconsistent guy with good offensive talent. He's far from what most posters here want to make him out to be though. Trade him for a bag of pucks!

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07-24-2011, 06:34 PM
  #67
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What reason was there to buy him out? We have the space to keep him and I don't think there's anyone to replace him with.

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07-24-2011, 06:35 PM
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Irrelevant, anyway. Cally will 95% be signed before the hearing, thus we will lose the right to another buy out period.

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07-24-2011, 06:41 PM
  #69
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People need to chill out with the Wolski consistency bs. His contract is too much for him but we didn't give it to him and we got rid of Rozsival. Hes gone after this year unless he proves himself this year.

He SHOULD have a good line this year. If he does he will produce and if he doesn't hes gone after this year and then means 4MIL in cap space we can use.

Its a High Risk/Reward.

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07-24-2011, 06:48 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Prustqvist24 View Post
He doesn't need to "wake up". He had ONE bad year. His game is not a grind it out game. He doesn't look as intense as you'd like him to. Oh well.
Being "intense" doesn't necessarily mean that a certain player is "gritty". You need to have some semblance of intensity and care in your game to be a successful NHLer; when people refer to Wolski not being an "intense" player, they're basically saying that he doesn't take each game/shift seriously, which is what holds him back as a player.
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Originally Posted by Prustqvist24 View Post
Prior to last season, he had put up over 40 points every year he'd been in the NHL, and was coming off of 65.
40 points isn't nearly enough for:
  1. His talent level

  2. His lack of defensive prowess/overall game outside of point production
If Wolski provided a positive impact on the ice other than scoring, him putting up 40 points would be fine. But, he doesn't. A 40 point, one-dimensional floater is not a player you want getting consistent ice time.
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The first time he was traded it was for a decent return and he was in the middle of a great season; Phoenix WANTED him for their playoff push, and he did what they wanted him to do, performing very well all to the end of the season and in the playoffs for them.
That's irrelevant. It doesn't matter how Phoenix valued him at the time of his acquisition, because they clearly didn't value him for too long. The fact that they weren't willing to keep him after how good of a finish he had to the 09-10 season signals a big, red flag to me. On a team as devoid of offensive talent as the Coyotes were/are, you would think that'd they'd give Wolski more than ~50 games to prove himself; but, they didn't, and I don't take that as a good thing.
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Originally Posted by Prustqvist24 View Post
The next year started poorly, he got shipped here midway through, continued to have a mediocre year (was on pace for ~42 points here) and now he's a useless player who needs to wake up and all this other stuff.
He does need to, what people call, "wake up". He's an inefficient, lazy, nonchalant player that gets benched with regularity. If he actually did "wake up", he'd be putting up 1st line numbers.
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He's no all-star. He's a young, inconsistent guy with good offensive talent. He's far from what most posters here want to make him out to be though. Trade him for a bag of pucks!
Inconsistency would not be as big of an issue if said inconsistency wasn't a result of the numerous shifts he dogs with regularity.

Yes, he's a talented player, and yes, he should get a chance to play, but the concerns around his game are valid.

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07-24-2011, 07:18 PM
  #71
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gimme a break

hes averaged something like 17 goals and 30 assists per year since hes been in the league. and he was +6 for us so its not like he cant play 5 on 5.

hes one of the best stick handlers in the entire league. hes one of our most dangerous offensive players and hes able to create chances on his own. all things we sorely need. hes not ryan callahan but so what. hes got solid skills.

for a team as offensively weak and goal challenged as we are, i would say a guy like this should have spot on our top 9. its not like we've got alot of other options.

no matter what you think, you cant have an entire team of brandon prusts and expect to win games 2-1 every night.

i swear if he was a rangers draft choice, most of you critics would be singing an entirely different tune about him. the guy flat out gets a bum rap around here.

and to call his game uselss. well thats just stup......silly.
Go play with your trucks kid.

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07-24-2011, 07:21 PM
  #72
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I'm ok with this. A low risk high reward type of player.

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07-24-2011, 07:25 PM
  #73
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Yes, he's a talented player, and yes, he should get a chance to play, but the concerns around his game are valid.
Yes, but the attitude towards him is not. In this thread we've read that he's useless from a few posters and there is a significant dislike for him from most of our fanbase that is pretty unwarranted after 37 games. He is still young with room for improvement. Not so young, but certainly with room. He is also, still, regardless of yours or anyone else's assertions of his laziness, ONE season removed from scoring 65 points in the NHL, which doesn't mean anything in the immediate sense, but considering he was putting up those numbers barely more than 365 days ago, he can put them again. He didn't lose any skill or become more lazy than he was then.

I don't mention his 40 point seasons because I think that's good production for him at this stage in his career (it was decent at the time though, 3+ seasons ago) but because it disproves people's constant BLIND assessment that he is useless. 40-50 point producers in the NHL aren't useless. Overpaid? Yes. Useless? No.

The 65 points he put up one season ago was more than anyone on this team had last year. He still has the exact same skills and he didn't suddenly decide, "meh, I don't want to put up 60 point seasons anymore, I'm good with 40 so I'm just gonna loaf it". Not that I'm even contending that Wolski doesn't need to play with more intensity, but not every player who doesn't LOOK intense is dogging it. Some of the best scorers in the game (not comparing Wolski, just stating facts) are not very noticeable on the other side of the puck and are often not noticeable at all on the ice, until they're popping one in the net out of nowhere. Others are very noticeable. Many are known to "dog it" defensively or through the neutral zone but get a pass because of the numbers they put up. I'm not saying much of that applies to Wolski, but with the right linemates, in the right situation, the kid has PROVEN he can score 60+ points in the NHL, even while playing the game that so many of you are so harshly critcizing, which is far from useless and which deserves more than 40 games before kicking to the curb. He wasn't a different Wolski the year he put up 65, he was just in the right situation and playing with confidence. I think it was you that said his going to Underhill shows some determination already. Wolski might work really hard and just have a style of game that only pays dividends in the right situation, but that doesn't make him the garbage heap our fanbase largely wants to make him out to be.

I've mostly been arguing AGAINST the "he's uselss" crowd more than I've been trying to argue FOR how great he is. I'm just tired of people making uninformed assessments of a kid who scored 65 in the NHL without needing to "wake up" and who has heaps of talent. I just thought when we shipped Rozsival out, demoted Redden, traeded Gomez and bought out Drury maybe we could go without a whipping boy for a few months, but Wolski almost instantly became that guy and now people spout things like he's Enver Lisin 2.0 when it's just far from the truth. I just want people to actually be objective and make reasonable assessments for once instead of just trashing anyone whose jersey isn't on their wish list.

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07-24-2011, 08:05 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Prustqvist24 View Post
Yes, but the attitude towards him is not. In this thread we've read that he's useless from a few posters and there is a significant dislike for him from most of our fanbase that is pretty unwarranted after 37 games. He is still young with room for improvement. Not so young, but certainly with room. He is also, still, regardless of yours or anyone else's assertions of his laziness, ONE season removed from scoring 65 points in the NHL, which doesn't mean anything in the immediate sense, but considering he was putting up those numbers barely more than 365 days ago, he can put them again. He didn't lose any skill or become more lazy than he was then.

I don't mention his 40 point seasons because I think that's good production for him at this stage in his career (it was decent at the time though, 3+ seasons ago) but because it disproves people's constant BLIND assessment that he is useless. 40-50 point producers in the NHL aren't useless. Overpaid? Yes. Useless? No.

The 65 points he put up one season ago was more than anyone on this team had last year. He still has the exact same skills and he didn't suddenly decide, "meh, I don't want to put up 60 point seasons anymore, I'm good with 40 so I'm just gonna loaf it". Not that I'm even contending that Wolski doesn't need to play with more intensity, but not every player who doesn't LOOK intense is dogging it. Some of the best scorers in the game (not comparing Wolski, just stating facts) are not very noticeable on the other side of the puck and are often not noticeable at all on the ice, until they're popping one in the net out of nowhere. Others are very noticeable. Many are known to "dog it" defensively or through the neutral zone but get a pass because of the numbers they put up. I'm not saying much of that applies to Wolski, but with the right linemates, in the right situation, the kid has PROVEN he can score 60+ points in the NHL, even while playing the game that so many of you are so harshly critcizing, which is far from useless and which deserves more than 40 games before kicking to the curb. He wasn't a different Wolski the year he put up 65, he was just in the right situation and playing with confidence. I think it was you that said his going to Underhill shows some determination already. Wolski might work really hard and just have a style of game that only pays dividends in the right situation, but that doesn't make him the garbage heap our fanbase largely wants to make him out to be.

I've mostly been arguing AGAINST the "he's uselss" crowd more than I've been trying to argue FOR how great he is. I'm just tired of people making uninformed assessments of a kid who scored 65 in the NHL without needing to "wake up" and who has heaps of talent. I just thought when we shipped Rozsival out, demoted Redden, traeded Gomez and bought out Drury maybe we could go without a whipping boy for a few months, but Wolski almost instantly became that guy and now people spout things like he's Enver Lisin 2.0 when it's just far from the truth. I just want people to actually be objective and make reasonable assessments for once instead of just trashing anyone whose jersey isn't on their wish list.
Completely agreed, PQ. I think the problem that you're running into is that these debates (much like our political debates these days, sadly), immediately devolve into extremes. And if that's not where they start, that's where people insist on taking them.

When people say "he's useless" and you counter that argument, it's not the same as saying "he's great;" it's only "he's NOT useless." Certainly, that's how I read it. But for those already on the record saying he's crap, they've painted themselves into a corner (in my opinion an unreasonable one), where any position other than he flat out blows is one they have to counter. So, they argue against the idea he's great, rather than the fact that he's a young, inconsistent guy with upside and flaws.

Personally, I love the talent, but am wary of the inconsistency. I'm encouraged by his (apparent) commitment this summer and am looking forward to what he brings next season. The incontrovertible fact is that he IS only a year removed from 65 points. But, it's also true that this team is establishing an identity that he didn't fit in with well last year. Great - he steps up or he steps out this year.

What blows my mind is that people almost seem to be rooting for the former.

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07-24-2011, 08:31 PM
  #75
offdacrossbar
with the 10th pick..
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
Go play with your trucks kid.
not sure what that means. im pretty sure im alot older than you and i own no trucks

that, however, does not in any way change the fact that your post was drivel

please look at his career numbers before you post the crap you did. sometimes people should just refrain from posting if they havent a clue.

its painful to watch people look foolish.

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