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2011-12 most complete Habs team in 5 years?

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Old
07-25-2011, 05:07 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Don't know if you wrote it before, didn't go through the whole thread, but who do you feel will either regress or have a similar season as last year?

Sure, Markov might get injured right from the start, but realistically, don't you think there's more chances of improvement as opposed to regression?
No, I expect us to reach 100 points unless ridiculous injuries happen, but I'm also realistic enough to realize not everyone will have a better year, it doesn't work that way, somebody will have an off year that we don't expect, like pleks, or someone else. The 100 points can change too, depends if we miss the minutes eaten by hamrlik, I suspect we might.

I admit I quoted the post and exaggerated a bit, but he answered with basically everyone bouncing back and that will never, ever happen.

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07-25-2011, 05:37 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Tusk View Post
I appreciate your posting BBC, wether I agree with you or not, but this is just grasping at straws to discredit the depth of this team, which you are actively saying is lesser than '09-'10 team. You are right, but it's a pointless point and I feel like you just want to sound right. Teams with 2 great goalies are such a rarity and usually a coincidence, basically only one of them plays when it matters but I
shouldn't have to point that out to you.
I do not feel it is grasping at straws because not only are we clearly less deep at goalie than two years ago, I actually think Peter Budaj is a downgrade from Alex Auld. I realize not everyone feels that way, but I think Budaj is a sieve whose only chance at a starting job came during the worst days of Theo's career, when even a Bantam A goalie could also have wrested the starting job from Theo.

I don't even necessarily seek having two "great" goalies, but having a young and promising backup like Enroth or Cory Schneider for instance provides more depth than we have now, while still being realistic within the CBA. So in a thread touting our depth and completeness, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that our goaltender depth is below NHL average, IMO.

Is that a better way of putting the matter?

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07-25-2011, 08:38 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
I think we need to add a solid top 3 two way dman to replace Hamr's minutes.
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
No I don't, because wiz ate Markov's minutes and he is gone too.
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I would tend to agree if Hamrliks minutes get replaced. If not, we may have taken a step back.
1. Add up the minutes played by Markov, Gorges, Wizniewski and Hamrlik last season.
2. Assume Gorges and Markov will be healthy and each play on average 22 minutes a game this season.

There. Hamrlik's AND the Wiz's minutes from last season just got replaced by Markov and Gorges. Not exactly a downgrade.

I'm not worried about the D this year. I think we'll see Markov and Subban split up, so one of the two will be on the ice for about 45 minutes of each game, with a bit of overlap. That leaves very few minutes with a potentially risky pairing out there.

Markov-Gorges = # 1 pairing, Gorges gets big PK time.
Gill-Subban = # 2 pairing, with Spacek or Yemelin taking a few shifts away from Gill to keep Gill at or below 20 minutes a night. Gill gets big PK time.
(Yemelin or Spacek)-Weber = # 3 pairing, basically 14 minutes a night, some 2nd unit PP time for Weber.

That's pretty darn good if you ask me. The loss of Hamrlik is completely overblown - I would agree he needs to be replaced if we didn't already have Markov and Gorges replacing those minutes.

If Yemelin and Weber aren't working out and Spacek is completely done and Diaz isn't ready at all for the NHL, and we see some injuries, then there's a bundle of cap room to find a replacement part way into the season. No reason to sign a stiff like Hannan now just in case.

It's been years since we had 2 defensemen as good as Markov and Subban in the lineup for any length of time. Think 1993 with Desjardins and Schneider. The impact those two will have on this team is being overlooked by most experts. Any team in the league would kill to have two guys like that on the same blue line.

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07-25-2011, 09:32 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Good point. Furthermore, to the original poster's question of whether this is the most complete team we have had in many years, another area of LESS completeness/depth is goaltending. We used to have TWO good young goalies, now only one.
Welcome Negative Nancy to the thread.

While I agree our goaltending depth has gotten worse, our overall goaltending has gotten better.

An older Carey Price + Alex Auld > Halak + younger Carey Price

Last year without Halak, our goaltenders won 6 more games and allowed 16 fewer goals. I also expect thetotals to be lower next year than they were in 09-10. While it was great depth on paper, the reality is Price really had bad luck that year and didn't play to his potential.

Price is older, more mature, I'll take that everyday over a younger less consistent goalie. Look at Halak last season as well, young goalies are not as consistent.

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07-25-2011, 09:35 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
No, I expect us to reach 100 points unless ridiculous injuries happen, but I'm also realistic enough to realize not everyone will have a better year, it doesn't work that way, somebody will have an off year that we don't expect, like pleks, or someone else. The 100 points can change too, depends if we miss the minutes eaten by hamrlik, I suspect we might.

I admit I quoted the post and exaggerated a bit, but he answered with basically everyone bouncing back and that will never, ever happen.
While I'd tend to agree, I just don't know who I'd peg to have worst seasons. I think Price and PK are the two most likely seeing how they were our best two players last year imo.

Plekanec didn't have a great year, at least not in terms of production. He only put up 57pts. So I don't see how he could possibly do worse, especially with a guy like Cole on his side.
MaxPac played half a year here and had his face crushed in. I don't see how he can be worse either.
Gionta, Cammy, Gomez all had career low years. I don't see that happening again.
Eller is surely set to have a better year.
AK could benefit greatly from playing versus weaker opponents. All in all, I think a similar year is a safe bet.
Markov played 7 games. Can't be worse.
Personally, I think Weber is going to surprise plenty. I don't think he gets enough credit on these boards.
So really, who's left to have worse years? Price and Subban.

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07-25-2011, 09:45 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
I don't even necessarily seek having two "great" goalies, but having a young and promising backup like Enroth or Cory Schneider for instance provides more depth than we have now, while still being realistic within the CBA. So in a thread touting our depth and completeness, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that our goaltender depth is below NHL average, IMO.
lol

Like another poster said, all your doing is trying to find a reason to post to be right.

Schneider and Enroth are great goalies imo and are the 2nd & 3rd best goalie tandems in the league. Yea 2 years ago we had that depth but next year Vancouver won't have that depth and Buffallo will have to make a decision as well, you can't keep that kind of goaltending depth, an upcoming goalie will need to be given the reins or traded.

But you are right, our depth in net is in the bottom third. I can take soltace in the fact that we can expect top 10 goaltending at the end of the year.

Feel free to bash how little points the 4th line will put up while your at it.

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07-25-2011, 09:47 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
1. Add up the minutes played by Markov, Gorges, Wizniewski and Hamrlik last season.
2. Assume Gorges and Markov will be healthy and each play on average 22 minutes a game this season.

There. Hamrlik's AND the Wiz's minutes from last season just got replaced by Markov and Gorges. Not exactly a downgrade.

I'm not worried about the D this year. I think we'll see Markov and Subban split up, so one of the two will be on the ice for about 45 minutes of each game, with a bit of overlap. That leaves very few minutes with a potentially risky pairing out there.

Markov-Gorges = # 1 pairing, Gorges gets big PK time.
Gill-Subban = # 2 pairing, with Spacek or Yemelin taking a few shifts away from Gill to keep Gill at or below 20 minutes a night. Gill gets big PK time.
(Yemelin or Spacek)-Weber = # 3 pairing, basically 14 minutes a night, some 2nd unit PP time for Weber.

That's pretty darn good if you ask me. The loss of Hamrlik is completely overblown - I would agree he needs to be replaced if we didn't already have Markov and Gorges replacing those minutes.

If Yemelin and Weber aren't working out and Spacek is completely done and Diaz isn't ready at all for the NHL, and we see some injuries, then there's a bundle of cap room to find a replacement part way into the season. No reason to sign a stiff like Hannan now just in case.

It's been years since we had 2 defensemen as good as Markov and Subban in the lineup for any length of time. Think 1993 with Desjardins and Schneider. The impact those two will have on this team is being overlooked by most experts. Any team in the league would kill to have two guys like that on the same blue line.
I agree with most of what you said, and I don't believe the D has taken a step back in overall talent, as having Subban and Markov is something very special. But it doesn't mean we can't learn from the past. What happens this year if one of Markov or Subban goes down? There's no Wiz or Hamr to fill in the spot. That's my concern. I still believe we're missing a genuine top 4 D, make that a #3 D actually, but I do believe this team is better than last year's team overall. The problem I see is that we're taking a much higher risk defensively (because of injuries) than the squad we had last season. But we still have money to spend, which is not that bad at all.

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Old
07-25-2011, 09:48 AM
  #83
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Kriss,

I agree with you, I expect Price and PK to regress slightly next year.

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07-25-2011, 09:49 AM
  #84
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I really like our team going into next season, very complete team. But the year after we can first, our team on paper looked nuts.

A.Kost-Pleck-Kovalev
Higgins-Koivu-Tanguay
Latendresse-Lang-S.Kost
Stewart-Lapierre-Laraque
Kostopoulos

Markov-Komisarek
Hamrlik-O'Bryne/Brisebois
Bullion-Gorges
Dandenault

Price
Halak

That line up was good on paper but soft.

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07-25-2011, 09:52 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Welcome Negative Nancy to the thread.

While I agree our goaltending depth has gotten worse, our overall goaltending has gotten better.

An older Carey Price + Alex Auld > Halak + younger Carey Price

Last year without Halak, our goaltenders won 6 more games and allowed 16 fewer goals. I also expect thetotals to be lower next year than they were in 09-10. While it was great depth on paper, the reality is Price really had bad luck that year and didn't play to his potential.

Price is older, more mature, I'll take that everyday over a younger less consistent goalie. Look at Halak last season as well, young goalies are not as consistent.

Mayer might come into his own this season in the AHL. Or maybe Delmas.

Habs are very good at developing goalies anyway, so I'm not too worried, and they certainly can upgrade Budaj's game.

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07-25-2011, 09:55 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Kriss,

I agree with you, I expect Price and PK to regress slightly next year.
I don't think Subban will regress, and he didn't say they would regress, he said that they were the most likely.

Price might take a step back in terms of overall statistics if our D corps gets important injuries.

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07-25-2011, 10:00 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
A.Kost-Pleck-Kovalev
Higgins-Koivu-Tanguay
Latendresse-Lang-S.Kost
Stewart-Lapierre-Laraque
Kostopoulos

Markov-Komisarek
Hamrlik-O'Bryne/Brisebois
Bullion-Gorges
Dandenault

That line up was good on paper but soft.
The difference between that team and this team is that AK is being used on the first line and now we've got enough depth that he is on the 3rd line. Also Higgins in the top 6 isn't a better team than what we have this year.

Factor in what a lousy year O'Byrne had + Brisebois and I still like this team way better.

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07-25-2011, 10:12 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
The difference between that team and this team is that AK is being used on the first line and now we've got enough depth that he is on the 3rd line. Also Higgins in the top 6 isn't a better team than what we have this year.

Factor in what a lousy year O'Byrne had + Brisebois and I still like this team way better.
Also, as I pointed out on the first page, Martin is a better coach than Carbo.

And, regardless of that, if we have as many injuries as we did in 2008-09, when AK46, Markov, Schneider, Tanguay, Higgins, Koivu, Latendresse, Lang all missed a lot of games, we will win nothing.

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07-25-2011, 10:14 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
The difference between that team and this team is that AK is being used on the first line and now we've got enough depth that he is on the 3rd line. Also Higgins in the top 6 isn't a better team than what we have this year.

Factor in what a lousy year O'Byrne had + Brisebois and I still like this team way better.
No doubt I'd rather have this years team, but that year, Higgins was coming off a 27 goal season, we just got Tangy, we had Lang on the 3rd line, and it was the first that we had 3 legit lines that can score. But O'B in the top 4 was a big weakness, we just founded find anyone to play with Hamrlik.

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07-25-2011, 10:23 AM
  #90
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It's basically the same as the last four years. Go into the season with high expectations. On the blueline I'm a firm believer that another legit top 4 is needed to safeguard against injuries. The history of the last three years should show that you cannot lean so heavily on players to fill in those minutes.

I think the contributions of Wiz and Hamr are being undervalued. Wiz was no slouch at all with his offensive contributions. And Hamrlik blocked a ton of shots on the left without a major injury.

If everyone stays relatively healthy and players perform to expectations (Gorges, Weber, Emelin) I think the D can be good even with those players gone. But if injuries hit or players underperform, especially early, I'm not as confident in this group. I see the latter as the more likely scenario.

Offensively the team has been relatively injury free with the exception of Cammalleri. I like the addition of Cole and am anxious to see him drive the net - something the Habs have been lacking. The forward depth seems pretty good on paper but wish the Habs would have found a faceoff winner like they had with Halpern.

Looks like the Habs are counting on Price. In the past the Habs had Price and Halak on the roster.

Overall I don't think it's a team much more complete than in the past. Strengths maybe in different parts of the lineup but weaker parts also.

And I wonder how much Kirk Muller will be missed.

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07-25-2011, 10:45 AM
  #91
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I don't think Subban will regress, and he didn't say they would regress, he said that they were the most likely.

Price might take a step back in terms of overall statistics if our D corps gets important injuries.
Exactly, I don't necessarily expect them to regress. I said if I were to chose some players that are most prone to it, it's them. The simple logic behind that is they actually had great years. I can't possibly expect our top 6 to regress after having such a bad year.

But as it stands, there's no real reason to expect either Price or PK to struggle more. There's always the sophomore jinx, but it's not truly predictable.
If Price plays less, then I don't see why he'd also regress.

I expect us to battle for top of our division next season, which essentially means top3 in East(or 4).

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07-25-2011, 02:01 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Kriss,

I agree with you, I expect Price and PK to regress slightly next year.
lol kriss isnt saying he thinks pk and price should regress this year

hes saying we should be so lucky that the only 2 REAL candidates to "regress" at all this coming year is price and subban by definition, which would suck but is NOT a sure thing

if anything, those 2 may improve even MORE then last year too, we should be so lucky. But i dont think theyll regress at all. (price could of easily won 6-7 more games if it werent for lack of scoring, shattering the habs all time record, and how can subban take a step BACK when all hes done for 3 years is get better in 3 different levels of hockey including 2 years of pro)

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07-25-2011, 02:10 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
I'm not worried about the D this year. I think we'll see Markov and Subban split up, so one of the two will be on the ice for about 45 minutes of each game, with a bit of overlap. That leaves very few minutes with a potentially risky pairing out there.

Markov-Gorges = # 1 pairing, Gorges gets big PK time.
Gill-Subban = # 2 pairing, with Spacek or Yemelin taking a few shifts away from Gill to keep Gill at or below 20 minutes a night. Gill gets big PK time.
(Yemelin or Spacek)-Weber = # 3 pairing, basically 14 minutes a night, some 2nd unit PP time for Weber.
I agree heavily that markov should be paired with gorges, i thought they were deceptivly great together the short time theyve been paired together (komisarek syndrome), and i think its an absolute that subban should be paired with gill strictly for speed purposes so subban can help gill out, id RATHER see subban with yemelin, but that would leave gill with spacek which would kill us

but a 3rd pairing of spacek, with yemelin or weber is not the worst thing that could ever happen to us, people are severly overblowing spacek and severly undervalueing yemelin and weber, (yemelin is not 20 yrs old and fragile, and weber has 3 years of scattered NHL experience and lots of boston playoffs experience and is still only 22), and then theres this diaz guy i keep hearing about

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07-25-2011, 02:13 PM
  #94
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We lack a top 4 dman that could eat minutes and play a good reliable shutdown role. Perhaps one of Emelin, Weber or even Spacek (if he has a good year), ideally he would have been big and physical. Also, we need a good banger that can play hockey hit and fight in our bottom six to help Moen and White. We also need a good faceoff man (that could come from within with a guy like White or Eller that is improving).
I think we can survive until January to deadline without one.

PG knows plenty will be available come January or deadline.

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07-25-2011, 02:20 PM
  #95
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I do not feel it is grasping at straws because not only are we clearly less deep at goalie than two years ago, I actually think Peter Budaj is a downgrade from Alex Auld. I realize not everyone feels that way, but I think Budaj is a sieve whose only chance at a starting job came during the worst days of Theo's career, when even a Bantam A goalie could also have wrested the starting job from Theo.

I don't even necessarily seek having two "great" goalies, but having a young and promising backup like Enroth or Cory Schneider for instance provides more depth than we have now, while still being realistic within the CBA. So in a thread touting our depth and completeness, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that our goaltender depth is below NHL average, IMO.

Is that a better way of putting the matter?
I'm inclined to agree with this. I think Budaj was a bad signing but I also thought Auld was a bad signing. Auld turned out to be great though.

I actually like the management of this team but at times I just wish they'd stick to what they know works. Right now we have about 5 mil in cap space to work with. We could have kept Wiz who we knew was a fit for us, or even just given Auld a salary bump to get him to stay. Auld @ Budaj's salary > Budaj @ Budaj's salary. But I guess time will tell maybe Budaj proves me wrong.

I have a similar opinion of him as you do. Goalies seem to revive their careers here though at times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
1. Add up the minutes played by Markov, Gorges, Wizniewski and Hamrlik last season.
2. Assume Gorges and Markov will be healthy and each play on average 22 minutes a game this season.

There. Hamrlik's AND the Wiz's minutes from last season just got replaced by Markov and Gorges. Not exactly a downgrade.

I'm not worried about the D this year. I think we'll see Markov and Subban split up, so one of the two will be on the ice for about 45 minutes of each game, with a bit of overlap. That leaves very few minutes with a potentially risky pairing out there.

Markov-Gorges = # 1 pairing, Gorges gets big PK time.
Gill-Subban = # 2 pairing, with Spacek or Yemelin taking a few shifts away from Gill to keep Gill at or below 20 minutes a night. Gill gets big PK time.
(Yemelin or Spacek)-Weber = # 3 pairing, basically 14 minutes a night, some 2nd unit PP time for Weber.

That's pretty darn good if you ask me. The loss of Hamrlik is completely overblown - I would agree he needs to be replaced if we didn't already have Markov and Gorges replacing those minutes.

If Yemelin and Weber aren't working out and Spacek is completely done and Diaz isn't ready at all for the NHL, and we see some injuries, then there's a bundle of cap room to find a replacement part way into the season. No reason to sign a stiff like Hannan now just in case.

It's been years since we had 2 defensemen as good as Markov and Subban in the lineup for any length of time. Think 1993 with Desjardins and Schneider. The impact those two will have on this team is being overlooked by most experts. Any team in the league would kill to have two guys like that on the same blue line.
I'm hoping Emelin really surprises us and winds up taking the #3 position on a line with Subban. I know people think Jacques would never do:

Markov-Gorges
Emelin-Subban
Spacek/Gill-Weber

But guess what... it's Spacek's last year here. Give him his natural side before he's gone. I actually want to see what this guy is capable of after a full season on his natural side. Then Markov-Gorges = solid, Emelin-Subban would be legit if Emelin did pan out, and Spacek(or Gill) with Weber would be fine. A vet for the young Weber to work with. More than likely being Gill on most nights but these two guys are the older guys so giving them games off here or there could work in out favor.

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07-25-2011, 02:22 PM
  #96
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The Habs roster is definitely the best looking roster, on paper that we've seen in a while but if we don't stay healthy this year...its not going to matter how balanced our lineup is.

Injuries have been the biggest problem for the Habs the last 2 seasons. If it wasn't for having key players missing from the lineup for long stretches of time, we would have finished higher in the standings and possibly had better playoff showings too. Injuries have also been very helpful to players like Desharnais, Pacioretty, Eller and White. Those players stepping up and helping out in key roles and them gaining the valuable experience in the NHL instead of spending more time in the minors is the best thing that could've happened.

But still....we need all of our top players healthy and playing their best hockey in order to make a serious cup run in the near future. We have the key components for a top 5 hockey team IMO, we just have to see everybody can put it all together for a full 82 games.

I like the players we picked up, I like the players we re-signed and I don't mind the players we let go to free agency. Gaulthier has done a terrific job addressing the need for more size up front. Adding Cole and players like Blunden and Willsie who are all 6'0 and can play a physical game will make more room for players like Gionta, Gomez, Pleks and Cammalleri to be creative and setup scoring chances.

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07-25-2011, 05:18 PM
  #97
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If we sign Hannan with our extra cap space we'll win the division.

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07-25-2011, 05:27 PM
  #98
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If we sign Hannan with our extra cap space we'll win the division.
1) Maybe the Molson brothers are broke.
2) If it's so simple why hasn't Gauthier done it?
3) What would our D look like?

Markov-Emelin
Subban-Hannan
Gill-Gorges

You then have Spacek, Diaz, and Weber not playing. That's a bit much for the first few weeks before injury hits.

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07-25-2011, 05:35 PM
  #99
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I'm inclined to agree with this. I think Budaj was a bad signing but I also thought Auld was a bad signing. Auld turned out to be great though.

I actually like the management of this team but at times I just wish they'd stick to what they know works. Right now we have about 5 mil in cap space to work with. We could have kept Wiz who we knew was a fit for us, or even just given Auld a salary bump to get him to stay. Auld @ Budaj's salary > Budaj @ Budaj's salary. But I guess time will tell maybe Budaj proves me wrong.

I have a similar opinion of him as you do. Goalies seem to revive their careers here though at times.



I'm hoping Emelin really surprises us and winds up taking the #3 position on a line with Subban. I know people think Jacques would never do:

Markov-Gorges
Emelin-Subban
Spacek/Gill-Weber

But guess what... it's Spacek's last year here. Give him his natural side before he's gone. I actually want to see what this guy is capable of after a full season on his natural side. Then Markov-Gorges = solid, Emelin-Subban would be legit if Emelin did pan out, and Spacek(or Gill) with Weber would be fine. A vet for the young Weber to work with. More than likely being Gill on most nights but these two guys are the older guys so giving them games off here or there could work in out favor.
Wrong, Budaj is better AND younger (meaning he can play more games if need be)...

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Old
07-25-2011, 05:35 PM
  #100
EveryDay
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
If we sign Hannan with our extra cap space we'll win the division.

How about Steve Staios?

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