HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

RotoWorld: Markov signing - Worst of the Summer

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-24-2011, 11:31 AM
  #151
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Thing is, this is a hockey board. Like you know my position on this, if we'd solely talk about things we know for sure, there wouldn't be any board or a lot of "we will see". Which, for the purpose of a hockey board, for me, makes no sense. Of course, "fire him" or "he sucks" comments make no sense either. Always the grey area for me, never black or white.
That was not the point I was trying to make. As I've said before too, which you might haven't noticed or forgot, is that I really don't mind people posting the garden variety of opinions, I'm not saying they should shut-up, but since this is freedom of speech, people have to accept that if they make wild assumptions they will always find people like me who also have the right of free speech, to show them the huge gap of logic between the assumption and reality. If the only purpose of a board like this one is to criticize no matter what, then I guess people have a narrow view of what a board like this can provide. Maybe that's your own misconception, as there is so much more than just opinions vs opinions regarding evaluations. There's much more to talk about than that. But in this day and age, rather than sharing povs on details that they want to dissect and intergrating more of the actual reality from others (because that's one way to better learn something), people rather don't leave much space for evolution of thought, some do, but they are few and I do respond in kind (habsjunkie2 is a prime example, he finds me a lot less offending towards him, and for a good reason, he's actually seeing more things than he seem to in the past), but this gets lost to many posters, unfortunetly, and also unfortunetly, there aren't enough of them compared to the mass of people unwilling to come in here to actually learn something from other posters. And you can't deny I do that. I'm actually thankful for every pity scuffle I had, and thankful of all the povs I've read here, because that's part of how I learn. All the most knowledgable posters on this board do that. To me, that's the true purpose of a board like this, sharing knowledge and learning. Not just coming in here to state opinions, no matter how ridicule or good they may be.

Quote:
And I have something also against the "They are professionnals, we should shut up theory".
I never said people should just shut up. You're making a huge generalization here. What you also miss here, is that I was explaining how my own thought process goes.

Quote:
Réjean Houle was once a professional. So was Mike Milbury ( I know, extremes...) but others were that are not so extreme and still ended up being fired within the regular 3 to 5 years that it takes, at least for a coach, to be fired. Something tells me that a lot of posters here succesfully ended up to be fire in 3 years. Yes, I know, a lot would be fire the next day....yet, let's make a difference between being a poster on a hockey board, and actually landing a job for real in that real life you call being a professionnal. Something tells me that people would handle things differently.
So what stops people of trying to see it that way since it would make them see things differently. That's actually the whole point of the "professionals" general argument. It's an appeal for people to try and see the numerous factors that they don't include and that the GM or coach has to deal with. It's an appeal for more realism. Not to shut up. That's your misconception.

Quote:
Being a professionnal does not erase the possibility that you'll make mistakes. And I strongly believe that in some occasions, some in here would take better decisions than those professionnals in some given moments.
That's also what I was saying, but you forgot the most important part, is that in the end, unless you're a genius, on the whole pros will make less mistakes, unless they are total morons (Milbury). It's like that for any professional job. Do anything 10000 time, and you'll become a pro at it. You might not be the best of pros, but will be of better function to this task than someone who doesn't have the same experience. It's basic.

Quote:
But the problem with the misconception you have, is that while you hate to see people judging professionnals while they don't know 95% of what's going on,
That's not what I hate. Don't judge a misconception from your own misconception. What I don't like is when people show disrespect for the complexity and just use highly subjective absolutist conclusions and are unwilling to come in here to share rather than just express their malcontent.

Quote:
you also end up judging posters to which you also might not know a lot of what's going on. Going in a post saying to somebody that they don't know their hockey.....is just as bad, for me, as a poster wanting to fire Martin 'cause he sucks at coaching. You don't know or don't remember all the posts that this or that poster wrote....and in the end, who are you to judge who knows or who doesn't know their hockey?
LMAO. Who are you to judge Martin then? See my point? It's okay for people to judge the pros, but hell no, it's so direspectful to judge posters, right?

Quote:
Just because they agree or don't with you?
So it's okay for people to judge Martin, because they don't agree with him?

It comes back to free speech. If you're free to judge the pros then I'm free to judge you. The misconception is that people find it more offensive getting judged, than their actual judgement of someone who could actually answer your "who are you to judge" question, in this hypothetical case, Martin. That is truly ironic, and just one more sign that we live in the age of the super ego. People find me arrogant, but have no idea how far more arrogant they are with their own judgments. They might not mouth it off as I do, but I deal with them directly, whereas the people they judge, get judged by thousands and even millions and can't even defend their POV which would quite probably be very illuminating to everyone, including you and me, no matter how imperfect that pro may be, they do know better overall.

Quote:
So I guess that this misconception you're talking about is that the way you talk, you appear as to have self-proclaimed yourself as the SUPER POSTER to which it's then being decided who knows their hockey and who doesn't.
So everyone here is the super poster who can decide which GM or coach knows their hockey and who doesn't...

Are you starting to get my point? It's all part of check and balances. Doesn't mean they or I or you are right. I let arguments and facts be the masters of that for the purpose of this board.


Quote:
But it's your style. Nobody will change you and just have to accept it....respond to it....or ignore it. Pretty sure you won't lose sleep over it even though you seems to be all worked up over the idea of analysing people and trying to "brake" them.
I'm rarely ever worked-up. There's a difference between being passionate and being worked-up. I'm passionate about realism and learning, which is central to any subject I fall in love with. I'm not trying to ..break.. anyone either, just trying to put some common sense when and where there doesn't seem to be much. That's part of being passionate about realism.

Quote:
But it surely is another misconception. In all honesty, while I don't agree with you a lot, I respect your views 'cause you're amongst a few guys who have a way of thought and stick with it no matter what.
I don't like the use of "way of thought" Thinking patterns should evolve, not remain static so in itself my only way of thought is assimilate, intergrate and propagate. But I get what you meant, hopefuly.

Quote:
Honestly though, misconceptions are everywhere 'cause it's just a board in the end. This is also a place where people don't know everything about posters and have to make their own idea based on a few posts that they can read. I self-proclaimed myself as a Q biased and lover and yet, everytime there's a draft, my wishlist contains more players outside of the Q than the Q itself. Yes, I'm also more on the negative side than on the positive, yet you read people and I'm always negative which is so not true. But there's also something called selective reading and when posters when to portray you a certain way, they'll forget the good things you'll say and pretend it never happens. So I wouldn't worry about misconceptions. But personnally, I would slow down on the personal attacks and concentrate at bringing information to people. 'Cause this is the sad part. In all the wisdom you and others can bring, it's being forgotten and we concentrate on the personal attacks more than anything else. In the end, in this board, it's people talking to people. You have fun coming in here if the conversations are interesting and insightful....but also fun if the respect exist between each other. Which for me makes it more important than a few bursts of insatisfaction towards guys that will never end up reading this. I know, it shouldn't make people say stupid things just because of it....but I'm able to do the difference between REAL stupid things (fire him, boo him, send him in the ECHL) and things I just don't agree with. Hey call me old fashion...

Just my opinion, for what it's worth....
Just to point out, when was the last time I made a personal attack to you? Yet you said yourself you're negative and that we don't agree on somethings. I don't deal with everyone the same way, and my criticism of some people is mostly consistent vs other people who can actually present a well-thoughtout view like you and others do and yet not being in agreement. There's one thing though, the only true thing that bugs me, and why I react this way to certain people, is that these energies and efforts spent could be better spent on other subjects I'm passionate about and that are far more important than hockey, to which I do spend efforts (more than I do here), but most people don't. I've come to be very much disrepectful of anyone who is direspectful of the complexity of things and live in a sea of intellectual simplicity. I could be as simplistic and say that it is disrepectful to science itself.

But I'm far from being worried from these misconceptions (the one from my previous post). Like I said before, I find them ironic, and they point to something that is very much central to the whole concept of free speech and why I have a whole lot of fun turning the tables on those kinda people. It's all part of check of balances, no matter how wrong or right, you and I and everyone may be.


Anyway... back to Markov, I'm curious to know what you think of the impact of having both him and Subban for the whole season. The difference in the teams make-up.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 07-24-2011 at 11:38 AM.
Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 11:47 AM
  #152
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,755
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Anyway... back to Markov, I'm curious to know what you think of the impact of having both him and Subban for the whole season. The difference in the teams make-up.
Huge impact. I don't see it Subban slowing down and I see Markov making his teamates better. So if everybody stays healthy, having both guys will clearly be a difference between fighting for a playoff spot and fighting for #1 in the division.

I'll come back later to address a few of the points you made....but I have something to attend to....my 2nd child 1st birthday.


Last edited by Whitesnake: 07-24-2011 at 11:52 AM.
Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 11:48 AM
  #153
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Huge impact. I don't see it Subban slowing down and I see Markov making his teamates better. So if everybody stays healthy, having both guys will clearly be a difference between fighting for a playoff spot and fighting for #1 in the division.
See, we agree

Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 11:53 AM
  #154
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,755
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
See, we agree
I know...strange huh?

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 12:10 PM
  #155
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
See, we agree
I'd like your thoughts on filling the void left by Roman Hamrlik. I'm sure I've read that you would be at least slightly concerned if those minutes aren't replaced by another top4. I agreed with you. I still feel to be a very top team, we need to add another top4 dman, has your opinion changed or would you still like to see those minutes filled?

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 12:19 PM
  #156
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I'd like your thoughts on filling the void left by Roman Hamrlik. I'm sure I've read that you would be at least slightly concerned if those minutes aren't replaced by another top4. I agreed with you. I still feel to be a very top team, we need to add another top4 dman, has your opinion changed or would you still like to see those minutes filled?
It hasn't changed, if we'd still have Hamrlik, to me this :

"having both guys will clearly be a difference between fighting for a playoff spot and fighting for #1 in the division"

Would become this "having all three guys will clearly be a difference between fighting for a division title and fighting for #1 in the conference".

We might not see that void filled before somewhen into the season. Pretty confident though that the Habs either see or know something we don't in the present crew or have a plan to upgrade it. Plans don't always work out though, especially in such trade market which is inconsistent and hard to work with because of the cap.

I'm really hoping we can see Subban and Markov play the whole season, and Emelin to be a revelation. Then I do think we will fight not only the division but the conference title.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 07-24-2011 at 12:24 PM.
Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 12:22 PM
  #157
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
It hasn't changed, if we'd still have Hamrlik, to me this :

"having both guys will clearly be a difference between fighting for a playoff spot and fighting for #1 in the division"

Would become this "having all three guys will clearly be a difference between fighting for a division title and fighting for #1 in the conference".
I wasn't questioning you because of your convo with whitesnake. Just curious if you still think there's potential for a pretty big hole left to fill with hammer gone. I think many people are over looking what he brought to this team and missing him, especially without a replacement, could prove costly.

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 12:30 PM
  #158
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I wasn't questioning you because of your convo with whitesnake. Just curious if you still think there's potential for a pretty big hole left to fill with hammer gone. I think many people are over looking what he brought to this team and missing him, especially without a replacement, could prove costly.
Thing is, last season our three-way punch was Subban-Wiz-Hamr.

I have no problem with Subban-Markov and whoever, cuz the first two, make any trio very good from the start, no matter who fills it.

To me, replacing Hamr adequately or re-signing him was to send us over the top defensively and have strong depth in case of injuries.

So since we do not have that depth, the thing I'm worried about is injuries. But like I said before, I'm pretty confident though that the Habs either see or know something we don't in the present crew or have a plan to upgrade it. They aren't foolish and they know a huge window of opportunities are coming not only for the couple seasons ahead, but for a better part of the next decade.

Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 12:50 PM
  #159
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Thing is, last season our three-way punch was Subban-Wiz-Hamr.

I have no problem with Subban-Markov and whoever, cuz the first two, make any trio very good from the start, no matter who fills it.

To me, replacing Hamr adequately or re-signing him was to send us over the top defensively and have strong depth in case of injuries.

So since we do not have that depth, the thing I'm worried about is injuries. But like I said before, I'm pretty confident though that the Habs either see or know something we don't in the present crew or have a plan to upgrade it. They aren't foolish and they know a huge window of opportunities are coming not only for the couple seasons ahead, but for a better part of the next decade.
I agree, perhaps they know more about Yemelin than I do, which is certainly possible, but relying on a guy who's never played a NHL game is a bit concerning, not miss the playoffs concerning or anything, but a missed opportunity to put us over the hump?

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 01:05 PM
  #160
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I agree, perhaps they know more about Yemelin than I do, which is certainly possible, but relying on a guy who's never played a NHL game is a bit concerning, not miss the playoffs concerning or anything, but a missed opportunity to put us over the hump?
I certainly think it is possible. But I'll wait for the results before becoming judge jury and executioner. Also, a missed opportunity would be more concerning if the market had been better. Like I said before, sometimes plans just don't pan out and it's not from a lack of trying.

Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 03:14 PM
  #161
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I certainly think it is possible. But I'll wait for the results before becoming judge jury and executioner. Also, a missed opportunity would be more concerning if the market had been better. Like I said before, sometimes plans just don't pan out and it's not from a lack of trying.
Agreed, but I think if we were serious we could of locked hamrlik up if PG thought it was required. I'm thinking he believes Yemelin can join right in as a number 4. I'm not so confident, but I don't know the player all that well, other than a few highlight packages ect.

Maybe he thinks Subban/Markov is enough to compensate for any deficiencies we might have, but with 5million still to spend and few people to spend it on, I would of been ok with bringing hammer back with the extra year.

Was kinda disappointed when O'Brien signed for little too. Not near the dman hammer is, but brings an element we're lacking.

Nothing worth panicking about, just a bit disappointing.

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 07:47 PM
  #162
Drydenwasthebest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,557
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
???

Lars Eller, 6'1", 192 lbs, 22 years old, 7 goals and 10 assists in 77 games.
Tyler Seguin, 6'1", 186 lbs, 19 years old, 11 goals and 11 assists in 74 games.

Seguin has higher goals per game, higher assists per game, and is 3 years younger.
The word "similar" does not mean "exact same or better". Eller had 17 points in 77 games. Seguin had 22 points in 74 games. Those are "similar" numbers. BAsed on those numbers, the players had a similar season, statistically. Did I clear that misunderstanding up??

Drydenwasthebest is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 07:51 PM
  #163
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
The word "similar" does not mean "exact same or better". Eller had 17 points in 77 games. Seguin had 22 points in 74 games. Those are "similar" numbers. BAsed on those numbers, the players had a similar season, statistically. Did I clear that misunderstanding up??
Your language implied they're on similar trajectories, that's why you didn't make the comparison to Travis Moen, who has 16 points in 79 games.

Seguin is 19 and Eller is 22, so comparing their numbers straight up is like comparing apples to oranges.

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2011, 09:01 PM
  #164
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Your language implied they're on similar trajectories, that's why you didn't make the comparison to Travis Moen, who has 16 points in 79 games.

Seguin is 19 and Eller is 22, so comparing their numbers straight up is like comparing apples to oranges.
both in their first full season.

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2011, 07:43 AM
  #165
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
both in their first full season.
Darche in his first full season had 22 points in 73 games ... and he was 32.

When it comes to rookies, age matters. Seguin is as likely to be a future 1st line center as Eller is to be a future 2nd line center.

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2011, 07:54 AM
  #166
Subban76
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,332
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I agree, perhaps they know more about Yemelin than I do, which is certainly possible, but relying on a guy who's never played a NHL game is a bit concerning, not miss the playoffs concerning or anything, but a missed opportunity to put us over the hump?
Or maybe not. Like you said, Habs know more about Emelin than any of us. They probably hope that he will have adjusted by the end of the season for the playoffs.

If not, you can always trade at the deadline. My wish is for Nashville to suck this year and not make the playoffs so that we can go after Ryan Suter at the deadline since he will be UFA and I'm not sure Nashville has the $$$ to retain him, therefore making him available for a trade. Just imagine that D with Price and a pair of Suter-Subban

Subban76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2011, 08:19 AM
  #167
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,303
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I'd like your thoughts on filling the void left by Roman Hamrlik. I'm sure I've read that you would be at least slightly concerned if those minutes aren't replaced by another top4. I agreed with you. I still feel to be a very top team, we need to add another top4 dman, has your opinion changed or would you still like to see those minutes filled?
Are you taking it for granted that Hamrlik has another two productive seasons left? If so, you're walking on treacherous ground. I'd say he has at most one. The Habs are already stuck with Spacek and an elderly Gill and there are question marks about how Markov and Gorges hold up. Surely you were aware that Subban, Weber, and Gorges are the only holdover Dmen under the age of 30. It doesn't require the foresight of a Moses to realize that it's imperative to rebuild the D before it collapses in a heap. The signings of Emelin and Diaz and the refusal to give Hamrlik two years suggest that Gauthier is aware of it.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2011, 08:21 AM
  #168
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Are you taking it for granted that Hamrlik has another two productive seasons left? If so, you're walking on treacherous ground. I'd say he has at most one. The Habs are already stuck with Spacek and an elderly Gill and there are question marks about how Markov and Gorges hold up. Surely you were aware that Subban, Weber, and Gorges are the only holdover Dmen under the age of 30. It doesn't require the foresight of a Moses to realize that it's imperative to rebuild the D before it collapses in a heap. The signings of Emelin and Diaz and the refusal to give Hamrlik two years suggest that Gauthier is aware of it.
1) Good dmen can play until 40.
2) Regardless of whether or not we lose Hammer to free agency or to age, we still lose him, and we still need to replace him.

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2011, 08:34 AM
  #169
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,303
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
1) Good dmen can play until 40.
2) Regardless of whether or not we lose Hammer to free agency or to age, we still lose him, and we still need to replace him.
Hamrlik's replacement is (Y)Emelin. He may not have Hamrlik's steadiness but the Habs sure could use his skating, shot, physique, and aggressiveness, and he's not close to being 40 (not to mention the savings in salary and cap room).

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2011, 08:59 AM
  #170
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Hamrlik's replacement is (Y)Emelin. He may not have Hamrlik's steadiness but the Habs sure could use his skating, shot, physique, and aggressiveness, and he's not close to being 40 (not to mention the savings in salary and cap room).
Cap Space is gonna make a lot this year, close to 5 mil, I hope he helps the team making so much.

Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2011, 09:04 AM
  #171
swimmer77
Post Oates
 
swimmer77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: in water
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,388
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Cap Space is gonna make a lot this year, close to 5 mil, I hope he helps the team making so much.
It's my understanding that he's a great guy in the dressing room but pretty useless on the ice.

swimmer77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2011, 09:48 AM
  #172
Drydenwasthebest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,557
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Darche in his first full season had 22 points in 73 games ... and he was 32.

When it comes to rookies, age matters. Seguin is as likely to be a future 1st line center as Eller is to be a future 2nd line center.
You really place Eller in the same category as D'Arche and Moen? You really project Seguin to be the next Crosby? What has Seguin done at the NHL level to make you believe he will be tons better than Eller? Eller even played through injury for a chunk of time.

Eller is older and got 5 less points playing 3rd and 4th line minutes. Seguin is younger and got 5 more points playing top 2 line minutes far more often than Eller was given. I know Seguin was a potential #1 overall, but that does not automatically make him Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin. Heck, it doesn't even make him Toews, Stamkos or Tavares. Eller may never be a #1 center, especially if Gomez limits him to 3rd and 4th line minutes, but he sure showed he can play well on our team this past season as a rookie. I'm guessing the Bruins are saying something similar about Seguin. As of the past season, watching skill and compete level, seeing point totals and work related effort, there is nothing wrong with saying Eller had a similar season to Seguin. I hope you are here at the end of this season so we can continue this discussion and comparison, even if Seguin will be given all the top 6 minutes needed to succeed and Eller gets stuck behind Gomez.

Just as a bit of a comparable for you: Toews got 24 goals and 54 points in his rookie season. Is Seguin really equal to him or others like him? Crosby scored 39G and 63A in his rookie season. Malkin was 33G and 52A in his rookie season. Tavares had 24G and 30A in his rookie season. Stamkos got 23 G and 23A in his rookie season. Hall scored 22G and 20 A in 65 games in his rookie season. Those are all first line players who did SIGNIFICANTLY better than Seguin, far better than Seguin did when compared to Eller.

So, I hope you understand now why I said Eller and Seguin had similar seasons and compared the two players in regards to us having a cupboard with good young players/prospects who give me hope for our team.

Drydenwasthebest is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2011, 10:18 AM
  #173
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
You really place Eller in the same category as D'Arche and Moen? You really project Seguin to be the next Crosby? What has Seguin done at the NHL level to make you believe he will be tons better than Eller? Eller even played through injury for a chunk of time.

Eller is older and got 5 less points playing 3rd and 4th line minutes. Seguin is younger and got 5 more points playing top 2 line minutes far more often than Eller was given. I know Seguin was a potential #1 overall, but that does not automatically make him Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin. Heck, it doesn't even make him Toews, Stamkos or Tavares. Eller may never be a #1 center, especially if Gomez limits him to 3rd and 4th line minutes, but he sure showed he can play well on our team this past season as a rookie. I'm guessing the Bruins are saying something similar about Seguin. As of the past season, watching skill and compete level, seeing point totals and work related effort, there is nothing wrong with saying Eller had a similar season to Seguin. I hope you are here at the end of this season so we can continue this discussion and comparison, even if Seguin will be given all the top 6 minutes needed to succeed and Eller gets stuck behind Gomez.

Just as a bit of a comparable for you: Toews got 24 goals and 54 points in his rookie season. Is Seguin really equal to him or others like him? Crosby scored 39G and 63A in his rookie season. Malkin was 33G and 52A in his rookie season. Tavares had 24G and 30A in his rookie season. Stamkos got 23 G and 23A in his rookie season. Hall scored 22G and 20 A in 65 games in his rookie season. Those are all first line players who did SIGNIFICANTLY better than Seguin, far better than Seguin did when compared to Eller.

So, I hope you understand now why I said Eller and Seguin had similar seasons and compared the two players in regards to us having a cupboard with good young players/prospects who give me hope for our team.
Where did I compare Seguin to Crosby?

I said he is a likely future 1st line center. Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin are generational talents, they are as far removed from the next tier as the next tier is removed from players like Gomez.

Your comparison to Toews, Stamkos, Tavares is flawed. Seguin, and Eller for that matter, did not get 1st line minutes and did not get 1st unit PP. They didn't even get 2nd line minutes or 2nd unit PP. I expect Seguin to eventually be on the same level as Toews. Had Seguin been drafted by Toronto (the way Tavares was drafted by NYI and Toews by Chicago) he would have played 22 minutes a game rather than 12, with Kulemin and spare parts as linemates, and 1st unit PP. If you scale his production accordingly for increased ice time and less press boxing, without accounting for linemates and PP time, he would had ~45 points.
(22/74)*82*(22/12) = 44.6936937 points = 45 points.
Add the PP time and the linemates and he would have had a 50-60 point rookie season, just like Toews, Stamkos, and Tavares.

I think Lars Eller has an extremely bright future. I think he'll be a 55-70 point 1B center in his prime, like Plekanec. However Seguin I think will be an 80-90 point 1A center. Yes, they had similar stats, sort of. Seguin had 0.29 ppg and Eller had 0.22 ppg, that's actually a significant difference. But more important, is the fact that Seguin is 3 years younger.

If Chiarelli phoned Gauthier and offered a trade of Seguin for Eller, Gauthier would not take out his calculator. He would say yes as fast as possible, to avoid the risk of the drugs in Chiarelli's system wearing off.

I appreciate your homerism, especially against a hated enemy like the Bruins, but let's be honest. Right now Seguin is on track for a brighter future. Our overall prospect pool might be better than theirs, but the prize in their prospect pool (Seguin) is better than anything we have in ours (Leblanc, Eller, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Emelin, Diaz).

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2011, 03:53 PM
  #174
Team_Spirit
Tinordi-Subban
 
Team_Spirit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 20,681
vCash: 700
Ryan Dadoun looks younger than most guys on your favourite QJMHL or OHL team.

I take a lot of people on this board more seriously.

Team_Spirit is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2011, 02:25 PM
  #175
loadie
Official Beer Taster
 
loadie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: New Brunswick
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,065
vCash: 500
This made me chuckle. "It allows a superstar like Ehrhoff to get his big payday while avoiding a superstar sized cap hit." The guy must be a Sabre or Canucks fan I guess.

loadie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:09 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.