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07-25-2011, 12:57 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'd love to know how he'd handle Ovechkin and Semin. Those two apparently make Richards and Carter look like nuns.
Oddly enough, I don't hear half their fanbase calling for their heads over it. And if they were traded, I doubt the other half would then turn around and try justifying it over ridiculous reasons.

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07-25-2011, 12:59 PM
  #102
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Holmgren had to take the two of them aside for a car ride to talk about their "professionalism".

Team was horribly inconsistent and Steven's gets fired.

Lavi comes in and perhaps sees certain players lifestyles as an issue to the teams success, and institutes a non-drinking club, maybe as a challenge or goal to motivate players in light of being at the bottom of the conference....

so, yes its obvious that the coach is the cause of the locker room divide.
He certainly bears some blame for instituting a policy that was guaranteed to divide the locker room.

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Oddly enough, I don't hear half their fanbase calling for their heads over it. And if they were traded, I doubt the other half would then turn around and try justifying it over ridiculous reasons.
The media here doesn't make a big deal out of it. 106.7 recently had a correspondent from Sovietsky Sports on. They talked a lot about OV and Semin partying, and about how much of a dick Semin is to the media and fans. And then the hosts sort of just said "meh" and moved on.

I can only imagine how the Philly media would have responded.

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07-25-2011, 01:02 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
As I said, if it was such a glaring problem, this was a terrible way to try and fix it. Not only does it not help any problem guys stop drinking (If it truly WAS a problem), but it also instantly divides the room into two groups.

It takes any problem that might exist, and makes it worse.
A couple years ago, long before Lavy was hired, Homer took Carter and Richards for ride in his car to give them a talking to, in the wake of the Olde City Crew articles. Do you remember that? Then he traded Upshall and later Lupul, to reinforce the point.

This has been going on for a long time. Laviolette was hired to change the atmosphere of the room. He failed because he didn't have the Captain onside.

It WAS TRULY a problem, or they would not have FRIGGIN' TRADED THEM.

Laviolette wasn't trying to divide and conquer the room. He was trying to get some entitled young guys to grow up.

So he tried a device to get them to commit to the team in front of the team. They told him to shove it. Six times acc. to the article.

I think it all came down to the whole organization just getting tired of it.

I think we know what Timonen told Homer in the post season interview. Apparently they didn't just have tea.

In the end, they wanted to 'change the culture,' so they replaced two guys. What does that say about how those two guys were perceived by the insiders?


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07-25-2011, 01:09 PM
  #104
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A couple years ago, long before Lavy was hired, Homer took Carter and Richards for ride in his car to give them a talking to, in the wake of the Olde City Crew articles. Do you remember that? Then he traded Upshall and later Lupul, to reinforce the point.

This has been going on for a long time. Laviolette was hired to change the atmosphere of the room. He failed because he didn't have the Captain onside.

It WAS TRULY a problem, or they would not have FRIGGIN' TRADED THEM.

Laviolette wasn't trying to divide and conquer the room. He was trying to get some entitled young guys to grow up.

So he tried a device to get them to commit to the team in front of the team. They told him to shove it. Six times acc. to the article.

I think it all came down to the whole organization just getting tired of it.

I think we know what Timonen told Homer in the post season interview.

In the end, they wanted to 'change the culture,' so they replaced two guys. What does that say about how those two guys were perceived by the insiders?
Yeah, they told him to shove it because it was a pretty damned confrontational way to fix the "problem," which by some accounts (Lappy, Bobrovsky) was largely under control.

BTW, I love how none of this was an issue during the Finals run last year, or in the offseason following it, or while this team was dominant for half the season. Funny how this sort of thing is only a problem when things go poorly.

I doubt Richards and Carter are blameless. But from what I can gather, the organization didn't do such a hot job here either.

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07-25-2011, 01:12 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, they told him to shove it because it was a pretty damned confrontational way to fix the "problem," which by some accounts (Lappy, Bobrovsky) was largely under control.

BTW, I love how none of this was an issue during the Finals run last year, or in the offseason following it, or while this team was dominant for half the season. Funny how this sort of thing is only a problem when things go poorly.

I doubt Richards and Carter are blameless. But from what I can gather, the organization didn't do such a hot job here either.
Looks like an organization partially succumbing to the media to me.

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07-25-2011, 01:14 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
As I said, if it was such a glaring problem, this was a terrible way to try and fix it. Not only does it not help any problem guys stop drinking (If it truly WAS a problem), but it also instantly divides the room into two groups.

It takes any problem that might exist, and makes it worse.
I disagree. This is the kind of policy that should, in theory, unite a team. Not split them.

Naturally, each locker room is already split in two. It's split between coaches and players. The players dont always agree with a coach's decision. That's where the role of a captain comes in.

The captain should be the bridge between the coach and the players. As captain, it is Richards's job to buy into what Laviolette implements and he needs to show his team mates that he is on board. If there were more players than just Carter and Richards who didnt sign, what kind of message do you think it sends to them if they see Carter and Richards pledging to put away the alcohol?

If Richards was serious about his role as captain; if he was really NOT becoming complacent after signing a 10 year deal, then he would have sucked it up and put his name on the board. It's called a sacrifice, and everybody in sports who wears the C needs to do it. It's their job, and if they dont want to be held to that standard, then you need to come to terms with yourself and recognize that you are not cut out to be a captain.

I love Richards as a player, but this shows some pretty bad character. I dont care what the policy was, he wore the C, and that was the time to set an example for his team mates, and he failed to do so. If he really wanted, he could have talked to Lavy behind closed doors on behalf of the entire team, and told him that it may be counter productive, but to not put his name on that board in the first place shows that he was not meant to be the C.


When you have this along with all the other **** that was being rumored, it's no mystery any more why they were traded. It's a shame that it happened, but I'm more inclined to believe that trading Richards and Carter was the result of a long series of bad decisions on their part rather than a spur of the moment thing from Holmgren.


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Old
07-25-2011, 01:21 PM
  #107
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Whoever the two players were I think they should keep their heads down cause Paul sounded angry. I don't think any of the stuff that goes on in the locker room is any of our business and the two players who spoke to the media completely stepped over the line. Let management deal with them as they see fit. Expect some more trades, jk.

oh and by the way i don't think Lavy is the easiest guy to get along with. Lavy seems to single players out for one reason or another. Asham specifically come to mind as does Z (though Z seemed lazy) and don't forget he didn't like brind'amour early on either. Not blaming Lavy in anyway or that this was a reason for a trade cause I don't know but just cause Richards is gone don't expect the relationship between the new flyers captain (i'm assuming it will be Pronger) and Lavy to be great.


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07-25-2011, 01:30 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, they told him to shove it because it was a pretty damned confrontational way to fix the "problem," which by some accounts (Lappy, Bobrovsky) was largely under control.

BTW, I love how none of this was an issue during the Finals run last year, or in the offseason following it, or while this team was dominant for half the season. Funny how this sort of thing is only a problem when things go poorly.

I doubt Richards and Carter are blameless. But from what I can gather, the organization didn't do such a hot job here either.
Yes, I'm sure that the Dry Island Board was the only confrontation that happened in the locker room for the past five years.

You are finally right about one thing, the organization didn't do such a good job of handling it. They should have stripped the C off Richards' chest two years ago, and he might still be a Flyer. They coddled him and Carter too much, hoping they'd finally grow up. They didn't. Buh-bye.

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07-25-2011, 01:31 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I disagree. This is the kind of policy that should, in theory, unite a team. Not split them.

Naturally, each locker room is already split in two. It's split between coaches and players. The players dont always agree with a coach's decision. That's where the role of a captain comes in.

The captain should be the bridge between the coach and the players. As captain, it is Richards's job to buy into what Laviolette implements and he needs to show his team mates that he is on board. If there were more players than just Carter and Richards who didnt sign, what kind of message do you think it sends to them if they see Carter and Richards pledging to put away the alcohol?

If Richards was serious about his role as captain; if he was really NOT becoming complacent after signing a 10 year deal, then he would have sucked it up and put his name on the board. It's called a sacrifice, and everybody in sports who wears the C needs to do it. It's their job, and if they dont want to be held to that standard, then you need to come to terms with yourself and recognize that you are not cut out to be a captain.

I love Richards as a player, but this shows some pretty bad character. I dont care what the policy was, he wore the C, and that was the time to set an example for his team mates, and he failed to do so. If he really wanted, he could have talked to Lavy behind closed doors on behalf of the entire team, and told him that it may be counter productive, but to not put his name on that board in the first place shows that he was not meant to be the C.


When you have this along with all the other **** that was being rumored, it's no mystery any more why they were traded. It's a shame that it happened, but I'm more inclined to believe that trading Richards and Carter was the result of a long series of bad decisions on their part rather than a spur of the moment thing from Holmgren.
I think the only way you could have expected this to unite the team would be if the entire team didn't really go out and drink or party to begin with.

I do agree though. Richards should have probably sacked up as the C and signed up. However, he didn't...likely because of the extreme/divisive nature of the policy. Richards' not signing up would be Example A of why the policy isn't such a hot idea.

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07-25-2011, 01:32 PM
  #110
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Yes, I'm sure that the Dry Island Board was the only confrontation that happened in the locker room for the past five years.

You are finally right about one thing, the organization didn't do such a good job of handling it. They should have stripped the C off Richards' chest two years ago, and he might still be a Flyer. They coddled him and Carter too much, hoping they'd finally grow up. They didn't. Buh-bye.
I forgot that in your eyes, the organization can't do any wrong, and it's always the players' fault.

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07-25-2011, 01:36 PM
  #111
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Whatever has happened in that locker room for the past couple of years there are a few things that needs to be pointed out:

The Flyers gave that long, long contract to Carter in December (I think it was signed in December at least). Somehow I doubt they'd risk to commit themselves to that if the issues at hand were too serious.

The team that traded for Richards has I don't know how many ex-Flyers with good ties to the organization, and a pretty close relationship to Richards in some cases. Again, if there were serious trouble here, I don't think that the Kings would have been the team to trade for him.

Was it more to these trades than "merely" hockey motives? Well, I'm inclined to believe so as well, but I don't think it is so grave as substance abuse.

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07-25-2011, 01:37 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I forgot that in your eyes, the organization can't do any wrong, and it's always the players' fault.
"Write your name on this board, and together we can work to get it on a Stanley Cup."

"No, I like drinking too much."

Not that I don't like Richards and Carter, but that seems a bit childish. This is what you've wanted since you were a kid. This is the Stanley Cup. Other people chatting it up on pathetic message boards have dreams regularly of being where you are now. Even if it's "meaningless" to give up alcohol and it's not effecting your production on the ice, why even fight it? It seems really immature.

It feels like a highschool football coup. So much so in fact, I feel really stupid that it's come to this.

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07-25-2011, 01:38 PM
  #113
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Laviolette is going on the Mike Missenelli show at 3 to talk about the article.

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07-25-2011, 01:39 PM
  #114
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"Write your name on this board, and together we can work to get it on a Stanley Cup."

"No, I like drinking too much."

Not that I don't like Richards and Carter, but that seems a bit childish. This is what you've wanted since you were a kid. This is the Stanley Cup. Other people chatting it up on pathetic message boards have dreams regularly of being where you are now. Even if it's "meaningless" to give up alcohol and it's not effecting your production on the ice, why even fight it? It seems really immature.
That's not it at all.

"Only family, G-rated fun allowed! Don't stay out too late! Or you're off the team!"

is more like it. Lavi took an extreme position. Predictably, players bristled at it. The players are far from blameless, but it doesn't change the fact that the Dry Island policy is stupid.

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07-25-2011, 01:41 PM
  #115
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Laviolette is going on the Mike Missenelli show at 3 to talk about the article.
Thanks for the heads up

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07-25-2011, 01:44 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
That's not it at all.

"Only family, G-rated fun allowed! Don't stay out too late! Or you're off the team!"

is more like it. Lavi took an extreme position. Predictably, players bristled at it. The players are far from blameless, but it doesn't change the fact that the Dry Island policy is stupid.
And likely isn't one Talbot and the Penguins adhered to on their way to the Stanley Cup. People forget we were a game and a goal away from our own cup with these "drunks".

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07-25-2011, 01:47 PM
  #117
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And likely isn't one Talbot and the Penguins adhered to on their way to the Stanley Cup. People forget we were a game and a goal away from our own cup with these "drunks".
Which leads me back full circle:

Was this about drinking?

Or was this about a rift in the locker room?

It can be about both, but it can't "really" be about both.

Beef thinks that the rule about alcohol, not necessarily the drinking itself, caused the rift.

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07-25-2011, 02:01 PM
  #118
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sorry for the double post...

isn't this the story line from Dazed and Confused?
So, is Richards = Jeremy London throwing the balled up contract at Lavy?
Is Pronger = Ben Affleck chasing the rookies around with a paddle?

After Richards and Carter were traded Homer was interviewed and said that two weeks before the trade they brought Richards in for a talk to "try and get him to open up" but that "he never opened up" - paraphasing - and it almost sounded like an intervention. It was on Comcast Sportsnet Philly the day of or after the trade with John Boruk.

I don't think drinking was necessarily the reason for the trade but I do think the lack of professionalism grated mgmt, especially Snider, the wrong way and they decided these two wouldn't be the face of the organization for the next 8-9 yrs.

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07-25-2011, 02:05 PM
  #119
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Let me know how the Lavy interview goes, I'm at work so I can't listen to it.

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07-25-2011, 02:09 PM
  #120
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sorry for the double post...

isn't this the story line from Dazed and Confused?
So, is Richards = Jeremy London throwing the balled up contract at Lavy?
Is Pronger = Ben Affleck chasing the rookies around with a paddle?

After Richards and Carter were traded Homer was interviewed and said that two weeks before the trade they brought Richards in for a talk to "try and get him to open up" but that "he never opened up" - paraphasing - and it almost sounded like an intervention. It was on Comcast Sportsnet Philly the day of or after the trade with John Boruk.

I don't think drinking was necessarily the reason for the trade but I do think the lack of professionalism grated mgmt, especially Snider, the wrong way and they decided these two wouldn't be the face of the organization for the next 8-9 yrs.
And based on the way Holmgren reacted, I wouldn't be shocked if all those years, all those trades of young "core" players that are all gone now, all those trades for veteran leadership, and all those long chats he had with Richards and Carter were not only a push to get this team to win but also a push to straighten out Richards and Carter in some way (whichever way they were screwing up though we will never know the full truth).

At some point Richards and Carter were getting a little too old for the semi-annual car ride with Mr. Holmgren.

I always thought that Holmgren's meetings with Richards and Carter were a little unorthodox, a little excessive, a little bizarre considering it was the first time I'd ever heard of something similar to an intervention in professional sports.

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07-25-2011, 02:10 PM
  #121
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Laviolette is going on the Mike Missenelli show at 3 to talk about the article.
Was he on? I turned it on now and they are yapping about the Eagles.

Edit: Nevermind. It says he will be on in 5 minutes.

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07-25-2011, 02:12 PM
  #122
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Was he on? I turned it on now and they are yapping about the Eagles.

Edit: Nevermind. It says he will be on in 5 minutes.
Any minute, they said he was running late but will still be joining.

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07-25-2011, 02:12 PM
  #123
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IF everything that happened with the Dry Island is true, why couldn't it be looked at as a "bonding" experience and if you are the "leaders" of the team, suck it up for one month and set an example. Teams are always going on those bonding retreats and if you can't make one little sacrifice for the sake of the team, to possibly make the team get better, what does that show the rest of the team? Even go as far as at least putting your number on the stupid board

Hell...maybe if you cut out the drinking one night, you wouldn't need a miracle shootout goal to even make the 09-10 playoffs. If you really look at the big picture, the Flyers were really only a great team for a 5-6 month period over two seasons. So could the partying been a reason for the lackluster play of the team in the beginning of the 09-10 season and end of last year..maybe maybe not.

But it really looks like it caused a rift in the locker room and team and if it didn't cause Richards and Carters play to suffer, it sure made the teams play suffer.

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07-25-2011, 02:13 PM
  #124
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I doubt Lavy will really reveal anything on the radio

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07-25-2011, 02:13 PM
  #125
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I'd love to know how he'd handle Ovechkin and Semin. Those two apparently make Richards and Carter look like nuns.
Huh? I live around some hardcore fans (sadly) and never hear anything like that. I hear they go crazy in the offseason, and everyone is usually worried about his condition at the start of the season, but during the season I have never heard any rumblings of crazy partying. There is an awesome picture of Ovy going around now doing some interview with a huge beer belly, further echoing what I'm saying - he does his insane partying during the offseason. But I dont keep up with gossip of teams other than the flyers, so who knows, haha.

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