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Fixing the Flower Play

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07-25-2011, 05:14 PM
  #1
Top 6 Spaling
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Fixing the Flower Play

What can Trotz and Co. do to fix our powerplay with our current roster?

Just a thought I had, move Ryan Ellis to wing on the PP. Weber-Suter with Ellis-Fisher-Hornqvist and Blum-Josi with SK-O'Reilly-Erat/Bergfors looks like 2 solid units to be. It also condenses the scoring power to mostly our top 5, making it much more likely to score. I dont know if it would help, but I think it could be worth a shot to have Ellis and Weber both on the ice with those slapshots and stil have the passing of Suter.

We could take a page out of Boston's book and use Weber in front of the net, as they did with Chara. While I'm not a huge fan of this idea, our PP can't get a whole lot worse than it is...maybe its worth a pre-season look. Ellis-Suter with SK-Fisher-Weber and Josi-Blum with Hornqvist-O'Reilly-Erat. Horny and Weber being on the same line would be utterly useless since that's all Patric does. Ellis on the 1st PP gives us the big shot to use with Weber's screen. Still not a huge fan, but its an interesting possiblity.

EDIT: I am not endorsing either of these ideas, just throwing them out there for discussion. I am not sure whether they would help or hurt.


Last edited by Top 6 Spaling: 07-25-2011 at 05:23 PM.
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07-25-2011, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gopreds9 View Post
What can Trotz and Co. do to fix our powerplay with our current roster?

Just a thought I had, move Ryan Ellis to wing on the PP. Weber-Suter with Ellis-Fisher-Hornqvist and Blum-Josi with SK-O'Reilly-Erat/Bergfors looks like 2 solid units to be. It also condenses the scoring power to mostly our top 5, making it much more likely to score. I dont know if it would help, but I think it could be worth a shot to have Ellis and Weber both on the ice with those slapshots and stil have the passing of Suter.

We could take a page out of Boston's book and use Weber in front of the net, as they did with Chara. While I'm not a huge fan of this idea, our PP can't get a whole lot worse than it is...maybe its worth a pre-season look. Ellis-Suter with SK-Fisher-Weber and Josi-Blum with Hornqvist-O'Reilly-Erat. Horny and Weber being on the same line would be utterly useless since that's all Patric does. Ellis on the 1st PP gives us the big shot to use with Weber's screen. Still not a huge fan, but its an interesting possiblity.

EDIT: I am not endorsing either of these ideas, just throwing them out there for discussion. I am not sure whether they would help or hurt.
If you remember that Boston abandoned that idea of Chara in front of the net as the series went on. The two things that Chara and Weber have in common is your taking away their powerful shots from the blue line when you do put them in front of the net. That kinda of move is desparation at best. You say that Suter's passing on the pp i think that Suter is not good on the pp that is why I'm hoping that Ellis can come in and be our quarterback that we have been lacking forever.

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07-25-2011, 05:34 PM
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I Will Son
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Trotz has to give Wilson some PP time this year.

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07-25-2011, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by I Will Son View Post
Trotz has to give Wilson some PP time this year.
Only if Trotz thinks Wilson has learned his lesson and follow orders or if he is scoring at high rate. The one thing Trotz knows nothing about is scoring so when Arnott and Sully scored they played and on the pp. Unless he considers you a legit scorer he thinks that a player has to play D

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07-25-2011, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
Only if Trotz thinks Wilson has learned his lesson and follow orders or if he is scoring at high rate. The one thing Trotz knows nothing about is scoring so when Arnott and Sully scored they played and on the pp. Unless he considers you a legit scorer he thinks that a player has to play D
What did we draft Wilson for? Offense. If we dont use Wilson on a scoring line/PP next year then Idk why we have him.. I dont wanna hear about how he needs to mature a lot cause thats BS. We all saw glimpses of what he could do last year and with limited time he was 4th in goals and 2nd in shooting% as a 21 yr old on an offensively troubled team.

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07-25-2011, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by I Will Son View Post
What did we draft Wilson for? Offense. If we dont use Wilson on a scoring line/PP next year then Idk why we have him.
Becuase a better grinder wasn't availible

I agree with both of the above posters. Wilson needs to get PP time, but he has to EARN it. If Trotz tells him "play D and you get to play PP", I think Wilson could actually work this year, at both ends.

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07-25-2011, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gopreds9 View Post
Becuase a better grinder wasn't availible

I agree with both of the above posters. Wilson needs to get PP time, but he has to EARN it. If Trotz tells him "play D and you get to play PP", I think Wilson could actually work this year, at both ends.
Wilson def was one of the weaker forwards at D, but he wasnt exactly a slouch. Im not worried about his defensive play, im worried about the coaching not giving him a chance.

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07-25-2011, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by I Will Son View Post
What did we draft Wilson for? Offense. If we dont use Wilson on a scoring line/PP next year then Idk why we have him.. I dont wanna hear about how he needs to mature a lot cause thats BS. We all saw glimpses of what he could do last year and with limited time he was 4th in goals and 2nd in shooting% as a 21 yr old on an offensively troubled team.
Hold on I'm on your side I'm just stating what Trotz wants. I'm a big fan of Wilson and extremely pissed the way he was treated especially in the Nuck series when he scored 16 goals in the regular season and if we scored even 3 more goals that series it might have been a different ending. Trotz has a double standard because Arnott and Sully didn't play a whole of defense yet they weren't picked on the way Dumont and Wilson was. Sure he made mistakes but what second year player doesn't. With Trotz you have to take the bad with the good. Trotz defense shut down a potent Nuck offense and the only reason we didn't win that series is because SK and Hornqvist and Fisher and Erat didn't score a goal. That too is up to interpetation will any offensive player not score that isn't given free reign to score

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07-25-2011, 08:06 PM
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Get more better offensive players, specifically guys who can put the puck in the net. Our current forwards lack to passing skills and scoring touch to run an effective power play. They also lose the puck battles around the boards and behind the net. Perhaps try something other then Weber blasting shots from the blueline.

Kariya years bolded:

Year - Rank - Percentage
98-99 - 25 - 12.35%
99-00 - 25 - 13.49%
00-01 - 23 - 14.13%
01-02 - 23 - 14.24%
02-03 - 26 - 13.88%
03-04 - 11 - 16.82%
05-06 - 10 - 18.36%
06-07 - 18 - 17.40%

07-08 - 27 - 14.80%
08-09 - 26 - 15.72%
09-10 - 24 - 16.43%
10-11 - 26 - 15.24%

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07-25-2011, 08:12 PM
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Offer to triple the salary of one of the PP coaches who works on teams with the best PPs.

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07-25-2011, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JustAnotherHockeyFan View Post
Offer to triple the salary of one of the PP coaches who works on teams with the best PPs.
I couldn't agree more with the last two post. The other teams when they play the Preds on pp is number one take away Weber's shot. When that happens we look lost. But before you move forward you have to acknowledge that we do have a bad pp when Trotz does not

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07-25-2011, 08:23 PM
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I agree new coaching and better players would help, but its not happening. I am looking for ways we can, with current players/coaches, improve this thing. We need solutions within the organization, as we apparently aren't getting outside help.

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07-25-2011, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
Get more better offensive players, specifically guys who can put the puck in the net. Our current forwards lack to passing skills and scoring touch to run an effective power play. They also lose the puck battles around the boards and behind the net. Perhaps try something other then Weber blasting shots from the blueline.

Kariya years bolded:

Year - Rank - Percentage
98-99 - 25 - 12.35%
99-00 - 25 - 13.49%
00-01 - 23 - 14.13%
01-02 - 23 - 14.24%
02-03 - 26 - 13.88%
03-04 - 11 - 16.82%
05-06 - 10 - 18.36%
06-07 - 18 - 17.40%

07-08 - 27 - 14.80%
08-09 - 26 - 15.72%
09-10 - 24 - 16.43%
10-11 - 26 - 15.24%

The bolded years are also Zidlicky/Timonen seasons. Kariya wasn't the only one who performed on the PP and then was gone.

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07-25-2011, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
The bolded years are also Zidlicky/Timonen seasons. Kariya wasn't the only one who performed on the PP and then was gone.
Just to throw this out there, which I have before... The most PP points Kariya ever got in 1 season was 46 pts... That was in 05 06, his first year with us, he had 14g 32a on the PP.

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07-25-2011, 09:40 PM
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Trotz has said in the past that the PP has to improve. He acknowledges that we aren't very good with the man advantage. Weber's shot being taken away should open up more ice for a forward to sneak into the slot and get open for a pass. Our forwards just don't seem to have the offensive creativity to be successful on the PP.

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07-25-2011, 09:44 PM
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I couldn't agree more with the last two post. The other teams when they play the Preds on pp is number one take away Weber's shot. When that happens we look lost. But before you move forward you have to acknowledge that we do have a bad pp when Trotz does not
Not sure how you can say that Trotz doesn't know we have a poor pp. He's even stated that. I think it's a little unreasonable to assume that the coaches don't know at least as much as we do about the players and the team. I'm sure if it were up to the coaches, we'd have the best power play in the league that scored every time. Unfortunately, you have to play with the players you have. (And that's not a shot at Poile. I'm sure he's trying to get the best players he can within the limitations that he has - resource wise.)

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07-25-2011, 09:59 PM
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I think we need more motion of the players on the power play. If you watch Pittsburgh's PP they are almost constantly in motion once they are in the zone. We stand in the zone and play pass the puck.

We need to be better at moving the puck into the zone and maintaining control.

We can't be afraid to shoot the puck. If there is a reasonable shot take it.

Everything I said is easier said then done.

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07-25-2011, 10:06 PM
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I'm waiting for Glenn to say something before I make a comment since this is "his" topic (and has been since I can remember in 05 or 06 or whenever it was). LoL

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07-26-2011, 12:43 AM
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Not sure how you can say that Trotz doesn't know we have a poor pp. He's even stated that. I think it's a little unreasonable to assume that the coaches don't know at least as much as we do about the players and the team. I'm sure if it were up to the coaches, we'd have the best power play in the league that scored every time. Unfortunately, you have to play with the players you have. (And that's not a shot at Poile. I'm sure he's trying to get the best players he can within the limitations that he has - resource wise.)
I'll have to look it up but i saw a quote on Preds on the Glass or Sbnation and will have to look for the link and heard him on podcast said that he didn't think our pp wa s really that bad we were moving the puck better and in the end of the season press conference he didn't talk much about it and avoided the questions about it and to avoid it when it's been achilles heel for the last two seasons and was a major factor in the Van. series. We rank near or at the bottom of the league the last two season in pp. Nobody scores everytime even the best. But if you can't acknowledge that your pp is bad but he calls out people for defense when if we scored don't think our defense would be that much better if we scored more? Even the best pp it's not really about the best players it the attack or philosphy and adapt to what defense is giving you and we don't

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07-26-2011, 12:48 AM
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Trotz has said in the past that the PP has to improve. He acknowledges that we aren't very good with the man advantage. Weber's shot being taken away should open up more ice for a forward to sneak into the slot and get open for a pass. Our forwards just don't seem to have the offensive creativity to be successful on the PP.
That's it in a nutshell basically. I kept thinking sometimes why not let Smithson and Spaling and Tootoo give it a try they couldn't do any worse. Of course that's extreme but as bad as we look at times most of the time we have difficulty bringing the puck into the zone

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07-26-2011, 01:31 AM
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This is where we would really benefit from picking up an elite playmaker. Having a sniper on the team isn't going to do any good if no one is able to get the puck to him. A good playmaker can make anyone a "sniper"

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07-26-2011, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
I'll have to look it up but i saw a quote on Preds on the Glass or Sbnation and will have to look for the link and heard him on podcast said that he didn't think our pp wa s really that bad we were moving the puck better and in the end of the season press conference he didn't talk much about it and avoided the questions about it and to avoid it when it's been achilles heel for the last two seasons and was a major factor in the Van. series. We rank near or at the bottom of the league the last two season in pp. Nobody scores everytime even the best. But if you can't acknowledge that your pp is bad but he calls out people for defense when if we scored don't think our defense would be that much better if we scored more? Even the best pp it's not really about the best players it the attack or philosphy and adapt to what defense is giving you and we don't
You are correct when you recall Trotz downplaying the ineptitude of the craptastic power play, although I don't remember if it was in a report or in the presser when I saw it. I believe he nuanced it with something like you try to be above 100% when combining the PP and PK percentages. Sure, that's true. But when you're talking about the weak PP and you have revert to a discussion about a strong PK as making up for it, well, that's just madness. For those of you who think that the Braintrust is serious about doing anything about the PP or that Trotz is giving anything more than lip service to "improving" it, just remember that Poile has said he was going to find help either from inside or outside the organization (fail) and Trotz took ownership of the PP (fail), only in the end to live in denial by stating that "it's not that bad". Unfortunately the lack of skilled players, the inability of the players on the roster to operate a higher functioning PP, the inability of the coaching staff to create anything from the current roster, and this organization's inability/unwillingness to address all of the issues means there really is nothing much that can be done at this point. It's really a complete failure from Poile setting the roster to the players not doing their jobs to the coaching staff's ineptitue that has set the Pred's PP ceiling at such a low level.

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07-26-2011, 09:57 AM
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we should just decline and keep playing 5 v 5

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07-26-2011, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by utmfisher19 View Post
I'm waiting for Glenn to say something before I make a comment since this is "his" topic (and has been since I can remember in 05 or 06 or whenever it was). LoL
Well, here you go Fish. LOL

It's not the players but the scheme, always has been, always will be. It's basic geometry when it comes down to it. We play a perimeter game on the PP. I have noticed way too many time that we end up with two guys on the point, one behind the net and one guy on each of the half boards. That basically makes a pentagon. If the defense is smart, and it usually is, they form a square. Now if some of you want to draw this out on a piece of paper go ahead but all I will say is this, there are no passing options because of this. The two guys low on defense can guard the guy behind the net and the half boards, the two high guys can guard the points and the guys on the half boards. It also makes it very hard to make cross ice passes unless they are crisp passes and right to where they need to be or else they get picked off.

Simple solution. Plant one guy in front of the net at all times. Hornqvist can do this. Find another player to do the same thing. Holmstrom and Franzen do it for Detroit. Holmstrom has made a career of it. No reason Hornqvist can't either. The other team is forced to either cover Hornqvist in front of the net or allow him to pester the goalie into submission. If they leave him alone, then all we need to do is get the puck close to the net for garbage rebounds and he should pound them in. If they put a man on him, we know have a 4 on 3 advantage in the offensive zone which is much harder to defend against. Think of geometry again and a triangle inside a square. Much harder to defend the passing lanes. I have failed to understand for years why we don't plant a guy in front of the net at all times during the PP. It works. Also, if you have Hornqvist and a defender in front of the goalie, what does that do, it provides a screen which makes the puck harder to see for the goalie.

For all the people that say, we need better talent I scoff at that because Washington has some of the best skilled players in the NHL and their PP isn't all that great. Even when Sid and Geno area healthy, the Penguins PP isn't that great either. Montreal has been relatively effective over the last bunch of years, even when they've lost a booming shot in Souray and a great playmaker in Streit and then the loss of Markov to injury has not messed with their production all that much.

The other things that kills us are the ability to win the initial faceoff and the ability to enter the zone and retain control of the puck. We rely on dump and chase so much at even strength that we don't know how to carry the puck into the zone without dumping it or carrying it in and making a few quick passes and getting setup. We are too stringent on a system that causes too many guys to think. You have to react and it has to be second nature, if it's not, the defense and the goalie has time to react and by that time, the scoring opportunity is lost.

The reason Kariya was successful as was Sully was their ability to puck handle in tight spaces but also their ability to read a play well. They were also quick players. Guys that take too long to react are no good on the PP. We need guys who are quick/fast and make good decisions. It amazes me that one of our best skaters is usually on the bench during the PP. With speed, a guy can force the D back and we can take the blue line much easier. We have a tendency to stack the blue line and wait for one guy to carry the puck into the zone and if we are stacked, we have no speed going into the offensive zone which makes it impossible to get set up or able to chase for the puck if need be.

Watch good units, they let the puck do the work for them. If you've ever watched Niedermayer and Pronger play together you'll see they're out there the entire 2 minutes sometimes, the reason being they let the puck work for them. They don't tire themselves out moving around a ton or skating for the puck. Watch Detroit and the use the entire ice. Cross ice passes are what they use to effectively, it's usually two passes from their defensive zone into the offensive zone and they're set up. If you watch soccer, the great team use the entire field. Watch bad teams and they only use the middle part of the field.

If we stretch the ice and the d, we have more room to operate. So all that said, keys to a better PP.

1. Plant a guy in front of the net at all times
2. Win faceoffs
3. Be able to enter the zone and keep possession
4. Make crisp passes
5. Don't hesitate
6. Find the right combos of players that work well together and don't stop until you find them
7. Shoot the puck
8. Use geometry as your friend to figure out better schemes
9. Hire me

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07-26-2011, 10:13 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Predatorbill View Post
I think we need more motion of the players on the power play. If you watch Pittsburgh's PP they are almost constantly in motion once they are in the zone. We stand in the zone and play pass the puck.

We need to be better at moving the puck into the zone and maintaining control.

We can't be afraid to shoot the puck. If there is a reasonable shot take it.

Everything I said is easier said then done.
I hope we don't try to improve our PP by watching Pittsburgh's PP. They were in the spot just ahead of us (24) at the end of the season. Their PP% was 15.8 while ours was 15.2

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