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07-25-2011, 07:42 PM
  #76
Seth Lake
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
I saw it this year in playoffs and I didn't see it last year in the playoffs or in the past. That being said you can't instill something to someone who doesn't have it in them he just brought a physical play and a playoff intensity that had been missing on this team in previous seasons and playoffs and everyone picked up on it and the Ducks and even the Nucks weren't going to push us around which was a major factor in us winning the first round and taking the Nucks to six games. Sometimes it take not a major star but a role player that has been in the wars of the playoffs to understand what it takes to take their games to the next level
Weber was battling injuries in the playoffs two seasons ago and we didn't make the playoffs the year prior. Shea has always been known for playing physical and his increased physicality in the playoffs this past season is due to maturity and wanting to lead the team as captain, not because O'Brien was a physical player.

I'd also take Weber's physical style of play over the often mindless and penalty ridden physical play of O'Brien...

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07-25-2011, 08:12 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SLake View Post
Weber was battling injuries in the playoffs two seasons ago and we didn't make the playoffs the year prior. Shea has always been known for playing physical and his increased physicality in the playoffs this past season is due to maturity and wanting to lead the team as captain, not because O'Brien was a physical player.

I'd also take Weber's physical style of play over the often mindless and penalty ridden physical play of O'Brien...
I wasn't comparing the two players I think SOB was a good influence on Weber. I think you made my point for me is that Weber wasn't the one that was being targeted and they concetrated on SOB That's all I said. Where was it that Weber was battling injuries and you have your links right? and he wasn't this year and what player doesn't battle with injuries during playoffs I'm sure it curtailed his overall effectivenes. But this year Weber was at a superstar level in the playoffs. When Weber as you say was hurt Hamhuis was being toyed with by Toews in front of the net and no one else was doing anything but being pushed around by the Hawks forwards. I never said that Weber wasn't a physical player that is why he is one of the coveted defenseman in all of hockey and I'm a huge Weber fan and watching intensly to see how it all turns out.If you have all this inside information on the Preds as you say you do was Sk hurt during the playoffs and I'm sure you do and wouldn't expect anything less from you.

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07-25-2011, 09:05 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
I wasn't comparing the two players I think SOB was a good influence on Weber. I think you made my point for me is that Weber wasn't the one that was being targeted and they concetrated on SOB That's all I said. Where was it that Weber was battling injuries and you have your links right? and he wasn't this year and what player doesn't battle with injuries during playoffs I'm sure it curtailed his overall effectivenes. But this year Weber was at a superstar level in the playoffs. When Weber as you say was hurt Hamhuis was being toyed with by Toews in front of the net and no one else was doing anything but being pushed around by the Hawks forwards. I never said that Weber wasn't a physical player that is why he is one of the coveted defenseman in all of hockey and I'm a huge Weber fan and watching intensly to see how it all turns out.If you have all this inside information on the Preds as you say you do was Sk hurt during the playoffs and I'm sure you do and wouldn't expect anything less from you.
I always struggle to follow along in your block of text...

I have no clue what point you believe I made for you. If you watched the series, the Canucks and Ducks both targeted Weber as much as O'Brien, but for different reasons. Weber they attacked to try to wear him down physically and emotionally. O'Brien they targeted because it was no secret that OB had a hand injury and a short fuse allowing them to goad him into penalties.

As for the Chicago series, it was evident watching the series that Shea was injured and then mentioned publicly by the team during the postseason...

I'm not claiming anything here. As for Kostitsyn, I have no clue what was up with him. We all saw him hurt early in the Anaheim series when he appeared to catch an edge in the corner, then return to the game to get drilled in the head. I'd assume he was hurt and that probably affected his play, but I also believe that it could have also made him a bit gun shy regarding contact the rest of the time too. Who knows?

I'm not claiming any inside info here, and if I did have it, I certainly wouldn't use it to argue here on a public messageboard...

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07-25-2011, 09:33 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
I understand that SOB is not the most gifted defenseman far from it and he played his role and I too was frustrated when he try to be offensive but I think he did it mostly to try to generate some offense on offensive challenged team. During the Duck series it was SOB who standing up for his teamates and clearing the net and taking the brunt of the punishment that the Ducks were trying to push us around. I remember one particular incident when Perry punched Sk and SOB immediately took up for and went after Perry which said your going to pay the price for picking on our soft little forward. Weber this year was nominated for the Norris and I think SOB was an influence and many of times I saw Weber and Suter talking with SOB during timeouts down the stretch and especially in the playoffs. This all being said I understand what I think the Preds are doing is that we can't afford to spend lots of money on role players when Weber is due lots of money and hopefully frees up money to get a top 6 forward. The thinking if it's one area this team can sacrifice where Trotz can excel at teaching young defenseman if you have to make sacrifices in order for other things to happen
I don't think money played much into the decision to let him walk. He only commanded a $1.1m contract from Colorado, and here we sit not even at the cap floor yet. Poile and/or Trotz must have decided what he brought to the team didn't outweigh the areas where he hurt the team. I could be a decision to costs us down the road, but I don't believe it will.

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07-25-2011, 10:25 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by utmfisher19 View Post
Um, who said anything about face-washing? I believe EVERYONE is talking about clearing out the crease when there is a rebound laying there. Right now, we have 5 dmen who would rather poke at the puck to keep possession rather than take the body to clear out the crease. I just don't see Suter, Blum, Josi, Ellis, and Klein punishing people that are hoping to make a run at Pekka.

SOB did that. Boullion did that. Without both of those two, the muscle is lost on our blueline.
I was using hyperbole, his crease clearing "skills' are exactly what I'm talking about. They are overrated.

There's a reason why these types of defensemen have been phased out in the new NHL. You need to have skilled puck movers back there rather than the bruising types. Of course hybrids are welcome, but SOB is not one (he thinks he is though). With all the skill coming up in the pipeline, it doesn't make sense to bring him back, especially not at his salary.

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07-25-2011, 11:24 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
I saw it this year in playoffs and I didn't see it last year in the playoffs or in the past. That being said you can't instill something to someone who doesn't have it in them he just brought a physical play and a playoff intensity that had been missing on this team in previous seasons and playoffs and everyone picked up on it and the Ducks and even the Nucks weren't going to push us around which was a major factor in us winning the first round and taking the Nucks to six games. Sometimes it take not a major star but a role player that has been in the wars of the playoffs to understand what it takes to take their games to the next level
What a joke. Ask Lilja if Shea knew how to play physical before the almight SOB. People can find justification for anything but over valuing SOB because of the way he affected Shea is laughable at best.

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07-26-2011, 12:28 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I don't think money played much into the decision to let him walk. He only commanded a $1.1m contract from Colorado, and here we sit not even at the cap floor yet. Poile and/or Trotz must have decided what he brought to the team didn't outweigh the areas where he hurt the team. I could be a decision to costs us down the road, but I don't believe it will.
But Weber's contract is not done yet and that will effect our cap. No it's not going to hurt unless we dont replace his type of defensman. We need a more physical presence other than Weber and I don't know what kind of defenseman these kids other than Ellis are and I don't project from the minor until I see them. But who is going to stand up for their teamates? SOB for all of his fault and he had many he was 4th line defenseman but he did stand up for his teamates and everyone thinks that doesn't mean much but if you watched Boston they stood up each other. Since since your thinking for Poile are we going to get a scorer or do you think we have enough?

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07-26-2011, 12:31 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
I was using hyperbole, his crease clearing "skills' are exactly what I'm talking about. They are overrated.

There's a reason why these types of defensemen have been phased out in the new NHL. You need to have skilled puck movers back there rather than the bruising types. Of course hybrids are welcome, but SOB is not one (he thinks he is though). With all the skill coming up in the pipeline, it doesn't make sense to bring him back, especially not at his salary.
You didn't watch the Stanley Cup finals did you?

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07-26-2011, 12:37 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
I was using hyperbole, his crease clearing "skills' are exactly what I'm talking about. They are overrated.

There's a reason why these types of defensemen have been phased out in the new NHL. You need to have skilled puck movers back there rather than the bruising types. Of course hybrids are welcome, but SOB is not one (he thinks he is though). With all the skill coming up in the pipeline, it doesn't make sense to bring him back, especially not at his salary.
How can you possibly say "crease clearing" defenseman are being phased out? It's a role every team needs fill. If you're not physical around your own crease, the opponent takes advantage knowing he won't have to pay a price for being there. A skillset that is being unappreciated apparently.

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07-26-2011, 01:25 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Tootoo Train View Post
How can you possibly say "crease clearing" defenseman are being phased out? It's a role every team needs fill. If you're not physical around your own crease, the opponent takes advantage knowing he won't have to pay a price for being there. A skillset that is being unappreciated apparently.
I'm not saying they are currently being phased out, I'm saying they already have. Please note that I'm referring to big, slow, goon defensemen (which is how I view SOB). Go watch games from 10-20 years ago. The way the game is played in front of the net has changed dramatically. Pretty much only "hybrid" types are left.

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07-26-2011, 01:33 AM
  #86
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I don't think money played much into the decision to let him walk. He only commanded a $1.1m contract from Colorado, and here we sit not even at the cap floor yet. Poile and/or Trotz must have decided what he brought to the team didn't outweigh the areas where he hurt the team. I could be a decision to costs us down the road, but I don't believe it will.
I dunno, I kind of do think money played a part. Yeah, he signed with Colorado for $1.1, but that doesn't mean that's what he would take to re-sign with us. Regardless, anything over $1M is too much for a #6 dman.

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07-26-2011, 09:55 AM
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maybe his point was that obie showed weber where the line was and what you had to do to cross it

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07-26-2011, 11:12 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
I'm not saying they are currently being phased out, I'm saying they already have. Please note that I'm referring to big, slow, goon defensemen (which is how I view SOB). Go watch games from 10-20 years ago. The way the game is played in front of the net has changed dramatically. Pretty much only "hybrid" types are left.
Ok, I thought you were saying being physical in the crease itself was being phased out. I will agree that defensemen these days seem to be more well-rounded and more versatile, however teams that don't have many physical forwards like us, need somebody on the back-end to be that guy in the crease and make people accountable.

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07-26-2011, 12:38 PM
  #89
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maybe his point was that obie showed weber where the line was and what you had to do to cross it
That's the reason teams bring in veteran role players to add something/intangables to their core ...exactly I remember a game with the wings where Weber took some Wing to the boards and we won that game and Trotz said the thought Weber needs to play with an edge but not over the edge and the next wing game Weber didn't do that and we lost. These things don't show up in stat sheet but are the intangibles between winning and loosing

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07-26-2011, 01:30 PM
  #90
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A two game sample size doesn't prove a theory. I still don't for a second buy that SOB taught Weber anything about the game of hockey. SOB is no more physical than Weber, in fact he is less physical. SOB is more likely to get mixed up in scrums "protecting" teammates, but if you're Trotz who do you allow to do things like that? Your #6 defenseman or your captain and best skater? I'm going with the #6 defenseman. To your point, so many things go into losing or winning. You're right, there are intangibles that could spell the difference, but one player not throwing as many hits isn't one of those intangibles. Even if the lack of a solid body check results in a goal, what other assignments were blown for that to happen? Who did we play in the next game? What was the score? Who else failed to show up, and in what capacity? Too many turnovers? Over-committing on the physical play and getting out of position? Did someone go down with an injury between the two games? Who was in net for each team? Who was injured for the opposition teams? Simply saying that you saw Weber taking people into the boards during a game we won and not taking people into the boards in a game that we lost isn't evidence of anything other than maybe games between division rivals tend to be more physical than other games.

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07-26-2011, 03:03 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
A two game sample size doesn't prove a theory. I still don't for a second buy that SOB taught Weber anything about the game of hockey. SOB is no more physical than Weber, in fact he is less physical. SOB is more likely to get mixed up in scrums "protecting" teammates, but if you're Trotz who do you allow to do things like that? Your #6 defenseman or your captain and best skater? I'm going with the #6 defenseman. To your point, so many things go into losing or winning. You're right, there are intangibles that could spell the difference, but one player not throwing as many hits isn't one of those intangibles. Even if the lack of a solid body check results in a goal, what other assignments were blown for that to happen? Who did we play in the next game? What was the score? Who else failed to show up, and in what capacity? Too many turnovers? Over-committing on the physical play and getting out of position? Did someone go down with an injury between the two games? Who was in net for each team? Who was injured for the opposition teams? Simply saying that you saw Weber taking people into the boards during a game we won and not taking people into the boards in a game that we lost isn't evidence of anything other than maybe games between division rivals tend to be more physical than other games.
There a hits and then they are hits that change that particular game and that was one of them. So players don't learn anything from other players right they only learn from coaches. I've watching hockey for over 30 years and too numerous where players have said I glad this particular player is on this team because I've learned so much from him. I could see this last season I said this a different type team where when SOB was taking up for his teamates and that started to spread around and you don't think that means anything. I mean the whole point is mute because he's gone and we'll find out if the toughness is missed or not

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07-26-2011, 04:50 PM
  #92
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There a hits and then they are hits that change that particular game and that was one of them. So players don't learn anything from other players right they only learn from coaches. I've watching hockey for over 30 years and too numerous where players have said I glad this particular player is on this team because I've learned so much from him. I could see this last season I said this a different type team where when SOB was taking up for his teamates and that started to spread around and you don't think that means anything. I mean the whole point is mute because he's gone and we'll find out if the toughness is missed or not
It will be.

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07-26-2011, 09:53 PM
  #93
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There a hits and then they are hits that change that particular game and that was one of them. So players don't learn anything from other players right they only learn from coaches. I've watching hockey for over 30 years and too numerous where players have said I glad this particular player is on this team because I've learned so much from him. I could see this last season I said this a different type team where when SOB was taking up for his teamates and that started to spread around and you don't think that means anything. I mean the whole point is mute because he's gone and we'll find out if the toughness is missed or not
Where did he say players can't learn from players? You really undermine your own point when you purposely exaggerate his point in order to argue against it. He merely questioned whether Weber learned from O'Brien, which is a far cry from suggesting that no player can learn from another.

As for toughness and sticking up for your teammates. Personally, I think it's one of those intangibles in hockey that gets way too much value placed on it (along with 'hot' goalie). As long as your team isn't timid (i.e. Ville Peltonen), I don't think it is really that important to be tough. All things being equal, I'd rather have that 'sandpaper' but it just doesn't add significantly to the team.

I'm trying to work out in my head how O'Brien's presence actually changes opponents' desire to charge the net, etc. In the modern NHL where retaliation is limited, how many hockey players are afraid of doing something lest it mean some after the whistle shoving? And how many of those players who are afraid of that are the ones who charge the net?

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07-27-2011, 09:45 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
As for toughness and sticking up for your teammates. Personally, I think it's one of those intangibles in hockey that gets way too much value placed on it (along with 'hot' goalie).
I know I am only picking out one sentence from your (good) post; I wanted to make a point to maybe continue the conversation: Boston and Vancouver were MOST DEFINITELY the most physical/toughest teams in the NHL this past season. Oh and it helped that both teams rode a 'hot' goalie too. lol

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07-27-2011, 09:46 AM
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I thought this thread was about Francis Bouillon?

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07-27-2011, 09:50 AM
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I thought this thread was about Francis Bouillon?
I cant remember the last time a thread stayed on topic.

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07-27-2011, 10:32 AM
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I cant remember the last time a thread stayed on topic.
There was this one thread that was all of one post long. It managed to stay on topic for at least the first paragraph before going off into nowhere crazy land. I was impressed.

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07-27-2011, 10:59 AM
  #98
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There a hits and then they are hits that change that particular game and that was one of them. So players don't learn anything from other players right they only learn from coaches. I've watching hockey for over 30 years and too numerous where players have said I glad this particular player is on this team because I've learned so much from him. I could see this last season I said this a different type team where when SOB was taking up for his teamates and that started to spread around and you don't think that means anything. I mean the whole point is mute because he's gone and we'll find out if the toughness is missed or not
You're sort of putting words in my mouth, or in my post in this case, here. I didn't say or imply that players don't learn anything other players. I simply said I doubt Weber learned anything about the game of hockey from a much less talented, less physical, dumber (hockey wise) player in Shane O'Brien. I'm not really sure why you're saying we'll find out if the toughness is missed. I've said all along I'd like to replace the toughness on the blueline. After thinking about it for a little while and talking about it with people I've changed my mind was "I wish we would've kept SOB" to "it'd be nice to get the toughness back, but with at least smarter player". I have no doubt the toughness will be missed, by fans if not by the team. I do have doubts that it will cost us games. Right now we need to worry more about a lack of offense/PP costing us games than a lack of Shane O'Brien.

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07-27-2011, 11:07 AM
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I thought this thread was about Francis Bouillon?
Who?

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07-27-2011, 08:09 PM
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I know I am only picking out one sentence from your (good) post; I wanted to make a point to maybe continue the conversation: Boston and Vancouver were MOST DEFINITELY the most physical/toughest teams in the NHL this past season. Oh and it helped that both teams rode a 'hot' goalie too. lol
I would certainly agree that was the case this year. The physicality in that series alone was amazing and a treat to watch. However, I'd argue that was anomolous and that the tough guys weren't the reason why Boston won and Vancouver lost. But it's not indicative of a trend over the past 10 or so years. Most teams seem to have non-tough (but not timid) players leading the way.

And don't get me started on a 'hot' goalie. I don't think they exist, at least not like everyone else thinks. Goalies are playing blackjack out there, positioning themselves to maximize success and playing the odds that the shooter can't hit the open spots. Very few saves are actually saves where the goalie's post-shot movement is the reason for the save. It's very often about the pre-shot positioning, with the implication that a goal allowed is, often, mostly bad luck on the goalies part and a combination of good luck/skill on the shooters part.


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