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Official Discussion Thread: Comparing the 2011 Blackhawks with the 2010 team.

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Old
07-22-2011, 07:02 PM
  #51
Illinihockey
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
I think Bickell is a better comparison to Ladd than Morin.

Ladd was more of a grinder than an offensive weapon, Morin knows where to go to score goals and he battles his way to that spot where Ladd kinda couldn't make up his mind if he was a better grinder or a better power forward so he kinda went both ways.

I think Morin is what Beach should be without the edge.
Ladd was the 4th overall pick in the draft! He was a ppg player in the WHL and the AHL (all before he was 21). Bickell is nowhere close to Ladd, their games look nothing alike.

Like I said, if this was 2004 and we drafted Ladd people would be calling him a 1st line winger and a probable 90 point scorer. People are expecting way too much out of our prospects.

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07-22-2011, 08:01 PM
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This team will be tougher to play against...that's for d*mn sure!

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07-22-2011, 10:08 PM
  #53
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A couple other factors to consider when comparing this years team with last years. Additional areas we really hurt were our overall depth (4th line certainly, and to a degree, the third line up until the end of last season and playoffs) and our Penalty Kill.

As I described in the OP, I think the Hawks did a good job of building a 4th line with some real character, grit, and even some offense to help with our depth. Additionally that third line was gold in the playoffs last season, and we do have some serious forward depth this year. Especially when you consider my "assumed" roster doesn't include Ben Smith, who could easily fill in nicely on a third or fourth line, or Jeremy Morin, who could crack the second line potentially at some point this year and play OK. So I think the Hawks did a great job at addressing their depth problem.

As for our penalty kill, a few of the guys we picked up this year can also PK a bit, so I think talent wise, we made some good moves there. This means guys like Toews and Hossa don't have to take such long shifts on every penalty and can get a breather to keep their energy levels up. What I'm not sold on still, is Mike Kitchen as a coach, who usually either captains the PK unit or the Power Play unit. However, we had him last year and we have him this year. He's not a constant compared to last season so it doesn't mean much as far as team being better or worse, but I do think he's a weak link on the coaching staff. He's just one I don't feel will ever be addressed since he is Q's boy.

But overall, we did make moves to improve depth as well as add some other good PK player options to this years team.

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07-22-2011, 10:34 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Ladd was the 4th overall pick in the draft! He was a ppg player in the WHL and the AHL (all before he was 21). Bickell is nowhere close to Ladd, their games look nothing alike.

Like I said, if this was 2004 and we drafted Ladd people would be calling him a 1st line winger and a probable 90 point scorer. People are expecting way too much out of our prospects.
Besides for Ovechkin and Malkin the 2004 draft was extremely weak... Probably one of the weakest ever.

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07-23-2011, 12:53 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
I agree that Leddy worries me more. And remember, it's unlikely that any team will be trading a top 4 dman in the first half of the season.
I think the plan is to give Leddy top 4 minutes up until the deadline unless he really screws up.

Keith-Seabrook
Hjalmarsson-Leddy
Montador-Lepisto/O'Donnel

At the deadline, trade for a 2nd pairing puck mover, not sure who will be available, waive/trade/whatever Lepisto, and move Leddy to the bottom pairing.

Keith-Seabrook
Hjalmarsson-Trade
Montador-Leddy
O'Donnell

That could potentially be better than the D during the cup run.

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07-23-2011, 01:23 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MrSerious View Post
I think the plan is to give Leddy top 4 minutes up until the deadline unless he really screws up.

Keith-Seabrook
Hjalmarsson-Leddy
Montador-Lepisto/O'Donnel

At the deadline, trade for a 2nd pairing puck mover, not sure who will be available, waive/trade/whatever Lepisto, and move Leddy to the bottom pairing.

Keith-Seabrook
Hjalmarsson-Trade
Montador-Leddy
O'Donnell

That could potentially be better than the D during the cup run.
moving Leddy to the bottom pairing is pointless and will stunt his growth..period.

you let Leddy play in the top 4 this year, if he doesnt earn it or continue to play well enough at that spot, I would rather see him sent down getting 20 minutes a night in the AHL then 6-8 minutes a night on our bottom pairing. An offensive minded dman needs all the icetime he can get over a more shutdown player who can still blossom in a bottom pairing role imo.

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07-23-2011, 01:34 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Recoil View Post
A couple other factors to consider when comparing this years team with last years. Additional areas we really hurt were our overall depth (4th line certainly, and to a degree, the third line up until the end of last season and playoffs) and our Penalty Kill.

As I described in the OP, I think the Hawks did a good job of building a 4th line with some real character, grit, and even some offense to help with our depth. Additionally that third line was gold in the playoffs last season, and we do have some serious forward depth this year. Especially when you consider my "assumed" roster doesn't include Ben Smith, who could easily fill in nicely on a third or fourth line, or Jeremy Morin, who could crack the second line potentially at some point this year and play OK. So I think the Hawks did a great job at addressing their depth problem.

As for our penalty kill, a few of the guys we picked up this year can also PK a bit, so I think talent wise, we made some good moves there. This means guys like Toews and Hossa don't have to take such long shifts on every penalty and can get a breather to keep their energy levels up. What I'm not sold on still, is Mike Kitchen as a coach, who usually either captains the PK unit or the Power Play unit. However, we had him last year and we have him this year. He's not a constant compared to last season so it doesn't mean much as far as team being better or worse, but I do think he's a weak link on the coaching staff. He's just one I don't feel will ever be addressed since he is Q's boy.

But overall, we did make moves to improve depth as well as add some other good PK player options to this years team.
perfectly said.

I think this team has some many more positive factors going for it this year then last, that we should be considered a top 3-4 team in the West hands down.

Our core players are fully rested and all should have bounce back years. Our schedule isnt as brutal to start the season as it was last year. We dont have Marty Turco who actually lost us points many nights. Those three factors alone should help put this team in the 98-105 point range. And that isnt even talking about our new additions/rookies.

I agree with what you said above, that this team is much more grittier and tougher all around. The fact that we dont have to look at Jassen Cullimore, Nick Boynton, Jordan Hendry, Jake Dowell, Fernando Pisani, Ryan Johnson, etc anymore is a Godsend.

We are much tougher overall on the defensive side with O'Donnell and Montador bringing a shutdown/physical style of play to this team that was sorely missing last season. Plus you have to imagine Hammer coming back to form (gaining his physical confidence back) and with Seabs we actually have 4 solid and physical dmen that we havent had in 2 years. That fact alone makes me extremely happy. If Lepisto contributes anything at this point this team is going to excel throughout the season.

On the offensive side of things, we got rid of said names above that night in and night out were not physical. Regardless if you like Mayers and Carcillo, it is irrelevant, they are here to do a job that was missing last season. I feel much better having these guys on our roster or at our disposal (if healthy scratched) when needed. Our 4th line is going to be tougher unless Kruger plays there which makes little sense to me.

Finally our youth is starting to knock down the door to the NHL. We can only hold off some of these kids for so long. I have made my feelings known by wanting to see a few more rookies playing serious roles on this team this year, and like many have said I think Ben Smith and Jeremy Morin are going to be bigtime contributers to this team this season.

Plus throw in the likes of Kruger, Jimmy Hayes, Beach, Olsen, Lalonde, etc and we actually have plenty of kids that can come in and fill roles much better then last season.

Plus, dont forgot that cap space that we have. This is the biggest change from last year. the Rockford shuffle is gone, and come trade deadline, any deficincies that we have can be addressed by adding much more then just a Chris Campoli.

Very excited about what this team can do this year, as long as our core group stays healthy, we are a top contender imo.

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07-23-2011, 02:33 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
moving Leddy to the bottom pairing is pointless and will stunt his growth..period.

you let Leddy play in the top 4 this year, if he doesnt earn it or continue to play well enough at that spot, I would rather see him sent down getting 20 minutes a night in the AHL then 6-8 minutes a night on our bottom pairing. An offensive minded dman needs all the icetime he can get over a more shutdown player who can still blossom in a bottom pairing role imo.
What's wrong with giving him top 4 minutes for 60 games, then upgrading at the deadline for another cup run? And Leddy would probably get 15 minutes a night on the bottom pairing. The goal is to ice the best possible team. I don't get how having Leddy play bottom pairing minutes for 20 games plus the playoffs would stunt his growth.

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07-24-2011, 05:34 AM
  #59
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12-15 minutes NHL > 20-22 minutes AHL

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07-25-2011, 10:43 AM
  #60
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I have nowhere else to post this really. Here's Toews talking about the end of the season and the offseason changes.

http://www.csnchicago.com/pages/vide...sdwwVpBRoT9xxB

The best part is his story about watching that final Wild - Stars game.

"I was sitting with my brother sipping on a cold one, and then maybe five minutes left in the game I realized 'Dallas is gonna lose this game.' Put my beer away and started drinking water. Time to get back to work."
Hard not to love this kid. That's awesome.

As for the salary cap stuff, I couldn't agree more that it'd be nice to have some kind of system in place to help aid in retaining your own homegrown talent. I get the idea of the cap and agree with it, the product is definitely better than the pre-cap product was and even though we are fans of a team that would spend, it's nice that teams just can't buy their success. However, it seems off that you essentially kind of get punished for developing homegrown talent because then you can't keep all of it and all your time and development and effort all benefit another team that picks them up. The flip side is you can also pick off other teams players they developed but that all comes back to the cap...you can only spend so much. Be nice if there was some exemption where you could re-sign x-number of homegrown players that don't count against the cap or only count at half their salary or something along those lines. It'll never happen but it'd be nice. I know outsiders or haters from smaller market clubs will cry "well spend better and get smarter contracts and you don't have to worry about it", but even with wise contracts you still are limited to how much you can spend to keep your own guys, especially if you're cranking out a lot of them.

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07-25-2011, 10:53 AM
  #61
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Keep in mind that the Hawks made their salary cap problems more than anything. Everyone knew the cap crunch was coming a year later when Keith, Toews and Kane would have to be resigned, but the Hawks still went out and signed Hossa to that huge contract.

Obviously signing Hossa was a great move. I'm just saying the Hawks weren't victims of the cap that some make them out to be. Now that Soupy's huge contract has been moved, the Hawks shoudln't have any issues re-signing their own free agents when the time comes.

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07-25-2011, 11:00 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
Keep in mind that the Hawks made their salary cap problems more than anything. Everyone knew the cap crunch was coming a year later when Keith, Toews and Kane would have to be resigned, but the Hawks still went out and signed Hossa to that huge contract.

Obviously signing Hossa was a great move. I'm just saying the Hawks weren't victims of the cap that some make them out to be. Now that Soupy's huge contract has been moved, the Hawks shoudln't have any issues re-signing their own free agents when the time comes.
Not just that, but the bonuses that got paid out were about $4M too. It was the perfect storm for cap hell.

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07-25-2011, 11:02 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
Keep in mind that the Hawks made their salary cap problems more than anything. Everyone knew the cap crunch was coming a year later when Keith, Toews and Kane would have to be resigned, but the Hawks still went out and signed Hossa to that huge contract.

Obviously signing Hossa was a great move. I'm just saying the Hawks weren't victims of the cap that some make them out to be. Now that Soupy's huge contract has been moved, the Hawks shoudln't have any issues re-signing their own free agents when the time comes.
I wasn't suggesting they weren't their own worst enemy. I know they created their own mess, I was talking moving forward for all teams. Obviously this would've been rather convenient last summer Which is why I referred to other fan bases chiming in about spending better. They created their own problems, but there are times where even when spending wisely you may have three or four homegrown players up for contract at the same time and you can't keep them all. Even having an exemption of some kind for one player would help, and would also help cap-floor spending teams that can't spend much money but then can keep their one guy and maybe have money left over to get an additional player. Again, I know it'll never happen and the system works pretty well as is, but it's still ok to wish.

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07-25-2011, 11:06 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
I wasn't suggesting they weren't their own worst enemy. I know they created their own mess, I was talking moving forward for all teams. Obviously this would've been rather convenient last summer Which is why I referred to other fan bases chiming in about spending better. They created their own problems, but there are times where even when spending wisely you may have three or four homegrown players up for contract at the same time and you can't keep them all. Even having an exemption of some kind for one player would help, and would also help cap-floor spending teams that can't spend much money but then can keep their one guy and maybe have money left over to get an additional player. Again, I know it'll never happen and the system works pretty well as is, but it's still ok to wish.
Something to keep in mind about all this, is that even as the salary cap goes up, or if there was a change to increase the cap even more, it doesn't mean that it solves the problem you two are discussing. It just means players average salaries will go up as well. The ratios of players salaries will likely remain the same. Top tier talent will just get more money, lower tier talent will get raises as well, but still be comparatively lower than the top tier guys, and all of the together will fit tightly into a team's salary cap.

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07-25-2011, 11:19 AM
  #65
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2009-10: Deeper at Forward (bottom 6 depth was huge)
2011-12: Deeper at Defense (especially the bottom pairing and 7th D-Man)

As great as Crawford was in the playoffs, I hope he matches that production going forward. This team is a Cup contender, but overall we are not as strong as the Cup winning team. That team would have doubled the cap if they were still together.

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07-25-2011, 12:15 PM
  #66
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2009-10: Deeper at Forward (bottom 6 depth was huge)
2011-12: Deeper at Defense (especially the bottom pairing and 7th D-Man)

As great as Crawford was in the playoffs, I hope he matches that production going forward. This team is a Cup contender, but overall we are not as strong as the Cup winning team. That team would have doubled the cap if they were still together.
I agree but some of those guys are a bit overpaid IMO. They really benefited from winning the cup.

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07-25-2011, 02:18 PM
  #67
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just look at Ladd and Buff in ATL. They deserve what they got.

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07-25-2011, 03:39 PM
  #68
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I am so excited to see Carcillo.

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07-25-2011, 03:41 PM
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just look at Ladd and Buff in ATL. They deserve what they got.
I think they are a bit overpaid. Granted, they got their contracts during and after the last season. Seabrook and Toews are quite the steals if you compare deals.

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07-25-2011, 04:07 PM
  #70
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I think they are a bit overpaid. Granted, they got their contracts during and after the last season. Seabrook and Toews are quite the steals if you compare deals.
Buff, maybe. I think he's paid mostly for his playoff performances and strong start to 2010. We'll see how he addresses that disappearing act he did at the end of 2010.

Ladd, with strong play in all three zones, strong leadership, strong hits, nearly 30 goals, and 2 cups could've gotten that contract anywhere.

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07-25-2011, 07:04 PM
  #71
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Buff, maybe. I think he's paid mostly for his playoff performances and strong start to 2010. We'll see how he addresses that disappearing act he did at the end of 2010.

Ladd, with strong play in all three zones, strong leadership, strong hits, nearly 30 goals, and 2 cups could've gotten that contract anywhere.
Right, isn't his cap hit $4.5 mil a season? I'd take that on the Hawks in a second.

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07-26-2011, 02:32 AM
  #72
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both are worth their contracts

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