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Rangers re-sign Ryan Callahan [3 years, $4.275M per]

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Old
07-26-2011, 03:41 PM
  #101
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Andrei Markov - 3 years at 5.75. James Wiz 6 years at 5.5. ... or we can just stick to forwards...

Thomas Fleischmann 4 years at 4.5. Ville Leino 6 years at 4.5. Erik Cole 4 years at 4.5. Brooks Laich 6 years at 4.5. Scottie Upshall 3 years at 3.5.

... Yea, let Callahan go to UFA. Let our future captain who is getting better every year walk for one of these contracts... The guy was - along with Dubi - our best forward last year. Keep nickle and diming and see how you do.

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07-26-2011, 03:43 PM
  #102
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Brooks and others are overestimating Cally's worth. Brooks did the same with his speculation regarding Dubi's contract. 5 million and up was tossed around.

Andrew Ladd just signed for 5 years at a 4.4 cap hit. 1 year away from UFA just like Cally. Already a Captain of the Jets and with a cup ring on his resume. 29 g 59 pts last year. Why is Cally worth more under the same circumstances?

Ryan Kesler signed for 6 years at a 5 million cap hit. He was also 1 year before UFA, but coming off a 25 g 75 pts season. Even if one factors in somewhat of a hometown discount, Cally isn't that close in value to Kesler.

Are Vancouver and Winnipeg so much more desirable to play in than NY? Ladd's contract is market value for Cally, unless he takes a little less like Kesler.

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07-26-2011, 03:50 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
Brooks and others are overestimating Cally's worth. Brooks did the same with his speculation regarding Dubi's contract. 5 million and up was tossed around.

Andrew Ladd just signed for 5 years at a 4.4 cap hit. 1 year away from UFA just like Cally. Already a Captain of the Jets and with a cup ring on his resume. 29 g 59 pts last year. Why is Cally worth more under the same circumstances?

Ryan Kesler signed for 6 years at a 5 million cap hit. He was also 1 year before UFA, but coming off a 25 g 75 pts season. Even if one factors in somewhat of a hometown discount, Cally isn't that close in value to Kesler.

Are Vancouver and Winnipeg so much more desirable to play in than NY? Ladd's contract is market value for Cally, unless he takes a little less like Kesler.
A Ladd-type deal would be very fair IMO... but like I said - if I have to jump a bit, then I do it. I think Sather and co. actually know what they're doing under these circumstances..

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07-26-2011, 04:08 PM
  #104
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Ranger Rants: No reported progress as Rangers, Callahan head to Thursday arbitration hearing http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/rangerr
Gross

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07-26-2011, 04:10 PM
  #105
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Gross
Well based on Bartlett's comments, hopefully the Rangers accept the god damn proposal and move on.

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07-26-2011, 04:14 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post



'Worth' is a subjective term among fans - mainly because there is no concrete general opinion regarding a players' supposed 'worth'. Strictly using facts - or, in other words, 'comparables' - Callahan's cap hit should fall between $4.2M and $4.7M.
Valid points. $4.2 is far from $5 which is what I'm afraid of. $4.5m seems to be market I guess. He's no less on an injury risk than Erik Cole (unfortunately for team USA) I guess I would just hope these guys would take a few hundred K less to help the team compete.

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07-26-2011, 04:20 PM
  #107
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Please sign Cally... Don't go to Arb.

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07-26-2011, 04:23 PM
  #108
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Man, how unexpected would it be if Dubinsky was the one who settled, and Callahan was the one to go to arbitration? I think we all had pretty much guessed the opposite.

I'd still be very surprised if they actually got to arbitration.

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07-26-2011, 04:26 PM
  #109
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A Ladd-type deal would be very fair IMO... but like I said - if I have to jump a bit, then I do it. I think Sather and co. actually know what they're doing under these circumstances..
I think keeping Cally is essential too. Just a question of how high you go before it becomes counterproductive. There are plenty of comparatives.

Even the Brooks Laich (6 years at 4.5M) contract you mentioned. He was scheduled to be a UFA.

23 g - 53 pts, 25 g - 59 pts, 16 g - 48 pts over the last 3 years.

He missed just 4 games in the last 4 years. Bigger, more durable.

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07-26-2011, 06:41 PM
  #110
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Bartlett has made it no secret that he is hellbent on Cally reaching free agency next summer. However, I must admit that I'm a little surprised that no progress has been made, considering that Dubinsky's contract should have helped serve as a framework for Callahan's negotiations. I won't be concerned unless it gets to arbitration.

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07-26-2011, 07:17 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Bartlett has made it no secret that he is hellbent on Cally reaching free agency next summer. However, I must admit that I'm a little surprised that no progress has been made, considering that Dubinsky's contract should have helped serve as a framework for Callahan's negotiations. I won't be concerned unless it gets to arbitration.
Is he really? Would that effect Cally's choice you think?

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07-26-2011, 07:25 PM
  #112
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Ladd & Dubinsky are very good comparisons.

3.75 his RFA year then 4.65 every year after for 4 more years. Same number of years as Ladd, same amounts per year as Dubinsky regarding RFA and UFA.

Total contract amount = 22.35, AAV = 4.47.

Both sides are going to wait it out to see if the other flinches and gives in to a better deal before the final moments.

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07-26-2011, 07:29 PM
  #113
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Is he really? Would that effect Cally's choice you think?
Who knows. What an agent wants may not necessarily be what his client wants. I think a lot of Bartlett's comments had to do with posturing and negotiating through the media anyway (not like Sather would be influenced by that). I'd assume Cally wouldn't want it to get to the point where he could potentially become a free agent next summer, although it would be more lucrative for him.

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07-26-2011, 07:33 PM
  #114
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Personally, I don't see why Callahan and his agent wouldn't be trying to cash in now - given the current inflation in player salary, and the uncertainty of the next CBA. With a new upper limit potentially being put into place for the start of the 12-13 season, I would think that some GMs would be a bit more cautious with their spending next offseason.

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07-26-2011, 07:54 PM
  #115
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Talk about downplaying achievement. Brandon Dubinsky as a 21 yr old rookie beat out two very good players to earn that right.
First of all, Dubinsky didn't beat out anybody. That training camp was just the first of many indications (all of which should have been more than obvious long before July of that year) that signing Drury and Gomez was a monumentally awful decision. Second of all, two very good players? Drury wasn't just a good player - he was a phenomenal player. A phenomenal ROLE player. Gomez? At no point in his career has Gomez ever been a very good player. He's never even been a good player. No player that is a detriment to his club even when scoring 70 or more points a season is a good player.

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Drury had 69 pts one season before coming to NY. Was one of the best players on that Buffalo roster. A former hobey baker winner, Calder winner and Stanley cup winner.
69 pts, scored primarily on the PP, through garbage duty, while spending most time at even strength on the team's THIRD line. He was one of the best players on that team. One of the best defensive players. At no point in his career was Drury an exceptional offensive player. At no point did he ever display any sort of top-end playmaking skills. I don't know what moron ever imagined that he'd make a good center for Jagr, but obviously, he was a horrible fit right from the start.

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Gomez was coming off a 60pt, on a defensive club where he missed 8 games. The season before he had 80 season At the time he was in his 8th year. In that time he won 2 cups, made it to the finals a 3rd time plus he also won a Calder.
Stats almost never tell the whole story. As if Gomez was ever an integral part of any Devils cup win. The Devils were such a well-coached team, such a defensive machine, and so deep and balanced, that they were able to hide Gomez's grotesque play. Gomez was never a key player on any Devils' cup teams. He was, at best, the 8th or 9th most important player on those teams. Brodeur, Stevens, Nieds, Elias, Mogilny, Sykora, Holik were all more important to the success of those teams, especially in the playoffs.

What he was coming off of, by the way, was a season in which he put up one of the most wasteful and inefficient seasons in NHL history. Taking 248 shots, scoring 13 goals, and racking up a shooting percentage of 5.2%. Or, the worst shooting percentage of any of the NHL's top 40 shots on goal leaders that season. That's the same amount of shots that Sidney Crosby and Zach Parise took, for comparison's sake. As mindblowingly horrendous as that season was, he managed to match his astoundingly stupid play the following season (lucky for us), when he took 242 shots and shot 6.6%, third worst among the top 50. That season where he scored 80 points was, of course, 2005-06, when scoring was way up league-wide (and probably around the time that Blomez figured he was something of a goalscorer, since he scored 33, which was the first and only time he's ever scored more than 19 goals in his career. That worked out well for him.)

Mind you, this is just shooting. There aren't any stats that truly give justice to the abhorrent decisionmaking Gomez makes in the offensive zone when he isn't taking predictable, soft shots that generally result in a loss of possession and a waste of an offensive zone opportunity. You have to watch for yourself and see how, more than arguably any other top-6 offensive-minded forward in the league, he consistently makes the wrong pass at the wrong time, establishes his position in the wrong place, or simply runs the wrong play altogether. What other player in a similar or comparable role on their team wastes as many offensive zone opportunities? Among forwards, perhaps only Olli Jokinen (and even then, not as often) can match the buffoonery of Gomez.

Try to name a primarily puckhandling player that Scott Gomez has ever shown good chemistry with. I can think only of one: Patrik Elias, and even then, if you think about their heyday, it was a lot more Elias than it was Gomez, but that's not surprising, because Elias is a much better player. Gomez can't figure out how to play when he's handling the puck, how can he be expected to figure out how to share the puck with another puckhandler? Needless to say, expecting Gomez to be a good center for Jagr was another absurd pipe dream that the good folks at MSG tried to peddle to the fanbase (most of whom bought it hook, like and sinker).

Dubinsky did an admirable job as a rookie centering Jagr, but he didn't win anything. He got the job by default, because there was no other viable candidate for the position.

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Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
Brooks and others are overestimating Cally's worth. Brooks did the same with his speculation regarding Dubi's contract. 5 million and up was tossed around.

Andrew Ladd just signed for 5 years at a 4.4 cap hit. 1 year away from UFA just like Cally. Already a Captain of the Jets and with a cup ring on his resume. 29 g 59 pts last year. Why is Cally worth more under the same circumstances?
Because he's a significantly stronger all-around player than Ladd? They are just about equal offensively (maybe Ladd is a bit better), but away from the puck, Ladd is like Dubinsky or Laich who you mention below. Solid, better than average, but no Callahan. Not even close. Also, captain of a bad team and a cup ring from a squad where he was a player of little consequence.

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Ryan Kesler signed for 6 years at a 5 million cap hit. He was also 1 year before UFA, but coming off a 25 g 75 pts season. Even if one factors in somewhat of a hometown discount, Cally isn't that close in value to Kesler.
Actually, he is. Kesler's greatest asset, like Callahan's, is his play away from the puck. Kesler is one of the best in the league in that regard. Better than Callahan, but Callahan is not far behind. Kesler is a top 5 all-around forward in this league. Callahan is top 15-20.

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Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
I think keeping Cally is essential too. Just a question of how high you go before it becomes counterproductive. There are plenty of comparatives.

Even the Brooks Laich (6 years at 4.5M) contract you mentioned. He was scheduled to be a UFA.

23 g - 53 pts, 25 g - 59 pts, 16 g - 48 pts over the last 3 years.

He missed just 4 games in the last 4 years. Bigger, more durable.
Other than being bigger and more durable, there is nothing about Laich that is more appealing than Callahan. Laich is a solid two-way forward, and a good player. Similar to Callahan, but Callahan is a better player in every aspect of the game, and does just as much offensively despite not being on the same team as Ovechkin/Backstrom/Semin/Green.

There's a couple of reasons Cally's representation wants him to reach the UFA market soon. One of those reasons is that if Callahan ever hit the open market, every single coach in this league would instantly begin pestering their respective GMs to do almost anything to get Callahan signed. No, he's not going to get the same kind of money that elite offensive players get, but he'll definitely get paid, especially because the competition for him would be huge. Players who are as strong in every part of the game and as consistent as Callahan are incredibly rare. There are, at most 20, forwards in this league that are comparable to him in that regard. Probably less. Unfortunately, most fans don't understand the game from a tactical perspective, and they can't appreciate how unbelievable important it is to have a player that makes the right play every shift, every game, and that you can't say that about more than a handful of players.

If Callahan hits the open market next year, he is getting AT LEAST 5.5 mil. But I don't think that's going to happen. They'll get him signed before the hearing.

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07-27-2011, 12:05 AM
  #116
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Man, how unexpected would it be if Dubinsky was the one who settled, and Callahan was the one to go to arbitration? I think we all had pretty much guessed the opposite.

I'd still be very surprised if they actually got to arbitration.
Wouldn't thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat be interesting.

Notice how since that from Gross was posted, there's been, oh, little to no activity in this thread?

Imagine if it were Dubinsky? There'd be 5+ pages since then saying how he needs to be traded and overvalues himself.

I still think it'll get done before arbitration. Dubi and Cally are joined at the hip. They both want to be here. Cally is the next captain.

I don't doubt that his agent wants him to go UFA but at the same time I find it hard to believe Cally lets that happen. If he goes to arb I expect a new deal signed after January.

But it is funny how you can hear the crickets chirping here now that Cally is the one on the clock, with it ticking down, down, down...

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07-27-2011, 12:24 AM
  #117
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If anything the concern from my end is greater about Callahan on the sole fact that he would be UFA eligible after a one year award.

Dubi at least the rights would be retained for a new contract/trade. Callahan could be wearing a Devils/Flyers/Penguins Jersey roughly a year from now.

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07-27-2011, 12:27 AM
  #118
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Bartlett's comment sounded like an agent trying to elicit a response from management, nothing more. After all, it's not like he said "they're lowballing us". He just expressed frustration that there's been no movement since their last proposal.

I'll be very surprised if it goes to arbitration. There are just too many comps to make it obvious, unless one side or the other is being unreasonable.

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07-27-2011, 12:52 AM
  #119
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Actually, he is. Kesler's greatest asset, like Callahan's, is his play away from the puck. Kesler is one of the best in the league in that regard. Better than Callahan, but Callahan is not far behind. Kesler is a top 5 all-around forward in this league. Callahan is top 15-20.
I thought your post was really good, up until this post. I think the notion of an "all around" player is very weird to talk about. I mean, sure, Callahan is a good all around player. But who would you want, Ovechkin or Callahan? Anyone saying Callahan should be sent to the corner right away. But, Callahan, technically speaking, is a better all around player than Ovechkin. What does that tell you about the importance of being an all around player?

And do guys like Chara count as all around players? because then there are quite a few defenseman up there as well, Lidstrom, Chara, Weber, etc

Is Cally a great 2-way player. Sure. But the importance of being an all-around player are vastly overstated. Id rather have a 50/50/100 forward than an "all around" guy who is more 20/30/50

I do understand that Cally is a valuable player. But your post makes him out to be an elite player. and an elite player he is not. As others have said, pay him the same RFA/UFA numbers that Dubi got.

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07-27-2011, 01:02 AM
  #120
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The Rangers will make Callahan sweat until the last minute. It's their style.

Callahan is not going to walk away from the chance to be the captain of an original six team. A one year arbitration award stops that dream cold.

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07-27-2011, 01:25 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
Wouldn't thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat be interesting.

Notice how since that from Gross was posted, there's been, oh, little to no activity in this thread?

Imagine if it were Dubinsky? There'd be 5+ pages since then saying how he needs to be traded and overvalues himself.

I still think it'll get done before arbitration. Dubi and Cally are joined at the hip. They both want to be here. Cally is the next captain.

I don't doubt that his agent wants him to go UFA but at the same time I find it hard to believe Cally lets that happen. If he goes to arb I expect a new deal signed after January.

But it is funny how you can hear the crickets chirping here now that Cally is the one on the clock, with it ticking down, down, down...
OK, seriously, you need to let this go. You sound like a broken record that's been reassembled, glued together, passed through a grinder, incinerated and scattered along the Atlantic coast... then digitally restored again to make sure that your message stays alive.

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07-27-2011, 01:32 AM
  #122
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They have until Thursday to negotiate and will use all that time. It doesn't mean a deal isn't going to be worked out.

So, let's change the subject and not worry about it

Who's Callahan going to hand the cup to first?

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07-27-2011, 01:35 AM
  #123
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If anything the concern from my end is greater about Callahan on the sole fact that he would be UFA eligible after a one year award.

Dubi at least the rights would be retained for a new contract/trade. Callahan could be wearing a Devils/Flyers/Penguins Jersey roughly a year from now.
Buffalo Sabres would be the team most likely to go hard after local product in Cally.

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07-27-2011, 03:24 AM
  #124
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Because he's a significantly stronger all-around player than Ladd? They are just about equal offensively (maybe Ladd is a bit better), but away from the puck, Ladd is like Dubinsky or Laich who you mention below. Solid, better than average, but no Callahan. Not even close. Also, captain of a bad team and a cup ring from a squad where he was a player of little consequence.

Actually, he is. Kesler's greatest asset, like Callahan's, is his play away from the puck. Kesler is one of the best in the league in that regard. Better than Callahan, but Callahan is not far behind. Kesler is a top 5 all-around forward in this league. Callahan is top 15-20.

Other than being bigger and more durable, there is nothing about Laich that is more appealing than Callahan. Laich is a solid two-way forward, and a good player. Similar to Callahan, but Callahan is a better player in every aspect of the game, and does just as much offensively despite not being on the same team as Ovechkin/Backstrom/Semin/Green.

There's a couple of reasons Cally's representation wants him to reach the UFA market soon. One of those reasons is that if Callahan ever hit the open market, every single coach in this league would instantly begin pestering their respective GMs to do almost anything to get Callahan signed. No, he's not going to get the same kind of money that elite offensive players get, but he'll definitely get paid, especially because the competition for him would be huge. Players who are as strong in every part of the game and as consistent as Callahan are incredibly rare. There are, at most 20, forwards in this league that are comparable to him in that regard. Probably less. Unfortunately, most fans don't understand the game from a tactical perspective, and they can't appreciate how unbelievable important it is to have a player that makes the right play every shift, every game, and that you can't say that about more than a handful of players.

If Callahan hits the open market next year, he is getting AT LEAST 5.5 mil. But I don't think that's going to happen. They'll get him signed before the hearing.
Ladd was an integral part of Chicago's 3rd line. No, he wasn't Keith or Kane, but let's not make it sound like he was some spare part, getting 5 minutes a game either. As far as the captaincy goes, I brought it up because a lot is made of (rightfully so) Cally's intangibles. Ladd was given the "C" after a trade, before even playing a game for the Thrashers. That speaks volumes for the high regard he is held in. Bad team or not, there a still only 30 in the league. Does Calgary's poor standing diminish Iginla's status as captain? Cally is an "A" up to this point. He is projected to be named captain of what's been essentially a bubble team. It's not like he's about to take over the leadership role in Detroit or Pittsburgh.

Callahan is significantly better than Ladd away from the puck. Granted. Ladd is a more talented offensive player. What you fail to mention is the difference in physical stature between the two. Ladd's hitting wears down the opposition a lot more than Cally's. He's more likely to come away with the puck from a corner collision. Much harder to contain going to/in front of the net, leading to more/better scoring chances. These are elements Ladd (Kesler and Laich too) will always be superior in to Cally.

You also have to question how long Cally can keep playing this physical style without wearing down. It is certainly something to be concerned with when contemplating a 6 year contract. He can adjust by relying on more stick-checking but that would diminish his value as a spark-plug. When you take everything into consideration, I believe Cally and Ladd are very close in value. Even if you don't, Cally's the riskier long term proposition.

A comparison between Laich and Cally would run along similar lines. Cally has the edge away-from the puck and defensively. Offensively though, Laich is the more established commodity. His numbers are no doubt helped by the rest of Washington's offense, but he's been pretty consistent over the years. The Capitals know what they'll be getting within that particular setting.

Cally had 40 and 37 points over 2 full seasons before hitting 48 in 60 last year. Has he turned the corner or was last year an aberration?

Which brings us to Kesler. You say Cally is close in value to him while admitting that Kesler is the better all-around player. That would mean disregarding the difference in offense provided by the two players. Kesler put up 59, 75, and 73 points over the last 3 years. 26, 25, and a whopping 41 goals.

How are the two even remotely close? Contracts still put a premium on offense. In this case, the much, much better offensive player is also better in every other facet of the game, bigger, more physical, and likely to be more durable over the course of the contract.

If Cally is worth at least 5.5 mil on the open market, how much did Kesler leave on the table to stay in Vancouver for 5M? 2 or 3 million? His agent (btw, the same one who represents Dubi) isn't that clueless.

All-around players don't get payed as much as the ones who put up big offensive numbers. Whether it's forwards or defensemen. When they do, you wind up in the situation this team already had with Drury. Spending more on the same thing the rest of the league is paying less for. Still having to pay the market rate for scoring. That's not a recipe for success in a cap world.

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07-27-2011, 04:26 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
I thought your post was really good, up until this post. I think the notion of an "all around" player is very weird to talk about. I mean, sure, Callahan is a good all around player. But who would you want, Ovechkin or Callahan? Anyone saying Callahan should be sent to the corner right away. But, Callahan, technically speaking, is a better all around player than Ovechkin. What does that tell you about the importance of being an all around player?

And do guys like Chara count as all around players? because then there are quite a few defenseman up there as well, Lidstrom, Chara, Weber, etc
I never said that Callahan was valued as much as an elite offensive player. I mentioned a salary of at least $5-5.5 million. That is not the money that elite offensive players get paid.

Guys like Chara, Pronger, and Weber are all very good all-around defensemen. Near the top. Not as good as Lidstrom (maybe at this age, he's not quite as amazing as he was even 3 years ago and prior) or Suter, for example. I love Weber. He's awesome, but I'll take Suter. He's the better, more important player.

Quote:
Is Cally a great 2-way player. Sure. But the importance of being an all-around player are vastly overstated. Id rather have a 50/50/100 forward than an "all around" guy who is more 20/30/50
I think you're a great poster, so I'm not trying to be a jerk by saying this, but in my opinion, for whatever it's worth, that shows a lack of understanding of one of the most fundamental things about the sport.

Excellent "all-around" players are well above-average, or better, in all aspects of the game, and nearly always qualify as standard bearers in the all-encompassing area of "hockey sense," or hockey IQ or whatever else you want to call it. It means players who consistently play the game at near the highest, or the highest levels every time they take the ice. It means players who are the best in the sport in terms of positioning, timing, anticipation, ability to read plays, vision, execution of plays and the ability to rely as much on their stick as their body, if not more so, when playing defense in order to reduce the chances of injury, expending energy, or taking penalties. It means players who don't make mistakes, players who make big plays, players who almost always make the right play.

The only players in the league that hold more value than this relatively small group of players are the players with elite offensive abilities, in certain cases elite enough that teams disregard their relatively weak "all-around" play or locker room issues, or both. Any other player group is valued less than the best "all-around" players.

You'll notice that in almost every case, the players who are the best of the best in terms of offensive skill/talent are also among the league's best "all-around" players. The league's best all-around player is Pavel Datsyuk. In his prime, I easily take him over Ovechkin. I also take Crosby over Ovechkin, because Crosby is one of the better "all-around" players in the league (he's also blessed with the prototype for what a perfect hockey physique should be). Niklas Lidstrom is the best defenseman of his generation. He's also the best all-around defenseman of his generation.

These, of course, are the cream of the crop. And, in terms of forwards, Ryan Kesler is not far behind Datsyuk. Callahan is not that far behind Kesler.

Quote:
I do understand that Cally is a valuable player. But your post makes him out to be an elite player. and an elite player he is not. As others have said, pay him the same RFA/UFA numbers that Dubi got.
No, it does not. Elite players get paid more than 5.5-6 million dollars, which is what Callahan is probably worth as a UFA, unless we are talking a lifetime-style contract, which is also not something I suggested.

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