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The Brule/Kopitar Myth

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Old
07-22-2011, 08:45 AM
  #51
blahblah
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Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
Maybe they could set up a chat with Donnie Boyd and ask him about the decision making on player selections. Certainly would be entertaining depending on how open he would be. Specifically interested in the picks regarding Pascal, Picard, Zherdev & Brule. The Director of Scouting for 10 years... for that matter did they contemplate moving up or was Rusty there pick all along.
I think Boyd might be too professional to get involved with something like that.

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07-22-2011, 08:47 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Oh good grief. Please don't go there.... I've seen plenty of "I'll put wild speculation in a reasonable sounding way".



Great.... Propagate more speculation to prove your point? Is this leek mind control? Seriously, I've enjoyed your postings over the years and I'm not trying to offend you. But, when someone spins logic and tries to defend it was the most reasonable path, that's when my suspicion level rises.

You've had your say, you admit you can't know for sure what actually happened. You are getting trying to set the record "straight" without any actual proof.

You are trying to lay out a line of your own self imposed logic in an attempt to make you hypothesis to seem to be the most sane and logical, and, therefore, the most likely to be true. You are trying to sound reasonable with your speculation.

We get it. You could be right. You've set up a chain of evidence that suggests that Brule would have been the choice of the scouts anyway. However, it doesn't prove anything and it certainly doesn't end the debate.

This is about as convincing to me as scientists with "Oh we have global cooling! Oh wait, no it's global warming! No, no.... It's climate change! See here's plenty of scientific data to prove it! I mean, the climate changes on a minute by minute basis, you can't actually prove us wrong! It's too cold? Global warming! Too hot? Global warming! Bad weather? Global warming! Good weather? We have a respite until we all die from climate change! No, no... We aren't benefiting financially from this!" or doctors "OMG, don't eat fat - you'll get fat! Oh wait, you've loaded up on carbs and you are still getting fat and having heart attacks? My bad.... What reasonable sounding crap can I throw at you next because I can't admit there are things that I actually don't understand? Eat plenty of whole grains! Wait, ranchers feed grains to cows to fatten them up? Well they aren't humans! Trust us! I mean me, your general practitioner, hasn't actually done any scientific studies myself, but I went to school and the data from the study in 1948 couldn't be wrong!". "I mean, don't we just sound reasonable?!"

For the record, I don't care what Dougie said happened (I think I remember someone commenting that he denied it). We've caught him in a fair number of misrepresentations over the years.
Hey, I'll be among the first to not only agree it was like so many picks of the Jackets- to this day- the wrong pick. Secondly, you can't offend me easily. I just think there is a myth some (Portzline?) invented, and it grows and grows.

We are all so hopeful of Johansen. Was HE the right pick? Should it have been Fowler? Gormley? Are we more sure about Johansen than we were about Filatov? hmmm.... I hope you get my point. Brule was not a reach, maybe even less so than Filatov...

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07-22-2011, 09:21 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
Hey, I'll be among the first to not only agree it was like so many picks of the Jackets- to this day- the wrong pick. Secondly, you can't offend me easily. I just think there is a myth some (Portzline?) invented, and it grows and grows.

We are all so hopeful of Johansen. Was HE the right pick? Should it have been Fowler? Gormley? Are we more sure about Johansen than we were about Filatov? hmmm.... I hope you get my point. Brule was not a reach, maybe even less so than Filatov...
There is little to argue or debate with here. I'm simply stating a few things.

1. If you (by you I mean anyone reading this) fall for some weird "Dispatch mind control" thingy, frankly I don't care. There's really no reason to try and save you from that. I've seen too many people that put a lot of faith in the Dispatch, I've tried to convince them otherwise and it's done no good. It's much like trying to putt out the real information about Hitch and the urban legends. No matter how much information you have to disprove some of the urban legends, they don't want to believe. For some reason, some people around here want to believe the Dispatch. Don't ask me why.

2. The record really isn't set straight, with the information you have it really can't be settled. You've presented your case well, but you can't dispel the key argument.

3. I'm not convinced it's a myth. I'm not convinced it's not a myth. I can easily see Dougie over riding his scouts. I can see the scouts going off the board. Despite the hype, I remember not being thrilled with the draft pick. Not that I faulted management for their pick, just that I thought there were better options on the board. Much like I wasn't impressed with Klesla, LeClaire, Filatov, and Picard. I liked Nash, Jake, Brass, Moore. I was really very neutral with Johansen. I didn't have an opinion on Zherdev.

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07-22-2011, 05:45 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knucklepuck28 View Post
As the Dispatch tells it, our scouts wanted to pick Kopitar over Brule, but they were over ruled by GMDM.
Here is the problem with the Brule thing. That draft, TSN did a special where they followed the Blue Jackets management around for that week. The same thing where the Blues offered Pronger for Picard. I have it recorded somewhere and will post it if I can find it.

What I remember of it, Doug was clear that he wanted Brule. Second, I remember the phone call to the draft table prior to Montreal announcing that they were picking Price. Everyone at the table was shocked. From what they showed, there was not even a thought of taking someone other than Brule.

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07-23-2011, 10:00 PM
  #55
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Maybe..

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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
I think Boyd might be too professional to get involved with something like that.
but he's talked pretty openly about this topic in the past so why would he suddenly say "oops, that's not professional". It's part of Blue Jackets history and would put an end to speculation like this. For example that video on the Blue Jackets behind the scenes drafting of Brassard was very informative. Not everyone has seen it though.

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07-24-2011, 02:21 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by brianhatesu View Post
Here is the problem with the Brule thing. That draft, TSN did a special where they followed the Blue Jackets management around for that week. The same thing where the Blues offered Pronger for Picard. I have it recorded somewhere and will post it if I can find it.

What I remember of it, Doug was clear that he wanted Brule. Second, I remember the phone call to the draft table prior to Montreal announcing that they were picking Price. Everyone at the table was shocked. From what they showed, there was not even a thought of taking someone other than Brule.

You are 100% correct! In fact I remember they showed Doug calling his son after the draft and saying "guess what? We got our guy at 6 we got Brule!"

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07-24-2011, 02:25 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
but he's talked pretty openly about this topic in the past so why would he suddenly say "oops, that's not professional". It's part of Blue Jackets history and would put an end to speculation like this. For example that video on the Blue Jackets behind the scenes drafting of Brassard was very informative. Not everyone has seen it though.
Since I haven't seen it, what exactly was said/done? I do remember watching a "behind the scenes" video of the 2000 draft for the Thrashers in which you see Milbury informing Waddell that they were gonna take DiPietro over Heatley. As soon as Milbury walked off, Waddell turns to the camera man and says "I guess we're not taking Klesla tomorrow at #2, we're gonna take Heatley"

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07-24-2011, 10:15 AM
  #58
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It was the same type stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiabluejacket View Post
Since I haven't seen it, what exactly was said/done? I do remember watching a "behind the scenes" video of the 2000 draft for the Thrashers in which you see Milbury informing Waddell that they were gonna take DiPietro over Heatley. As soon as Milbury walked off, Waddell turns to the camera man and says "I guess we're not taking Klesla tomorrow at #2, we're gonna take Heatley"
2006 draft from the combine on. Brassard setting records for endurance on some of the testing apparatus. Some footage of the interviews, then talking about what they liked about players.. not really being critical.

Boyd has done some rather open interviews about draft pick decisions and why they went one way vs another. I wasn't really suggesting he criticize decisions that were made, only to explain what they considered the factors to be.

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07-27-2011, 09:50 AM
  #59
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In the end, your success as an organization has nothing to do with drafting the guys projected to be stars. Is that fair? The question is moot. When you draft duds and you continue to lose, the fans stay home and revenue plummets.

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07-27-2011, 10:12 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
but he's talked pretty openly about this topic in the past so why would he suddenly say "oops, that's not professional". It's part of Blue Jackets history and would put an end to speculation like this. For example that video on the Blue Jackets behind the scenes drafting of Brassard was very informative. Not everyone has seen it though.
Haven't see it, if you are talking about the process in which they selected a player. Sure. If you are talking about finger pointing and who is responsible for what. Give me examples with links.

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07-27-2011, 03:56 PM
  #61
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Noted in post #58

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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Haven't see it, if you are talking about the process in which they selected a player. Sure. If you are talking about finger pointing and who is responsible for what. Give me examples with links.
I don't really care about "finger pointing", but Boyd's (or anyone in mgmts), insight into why a player was selected is pretty cool. The video I mentioned is a behind the scenes look on Brassards being drafted, and he has done pretty candid interviews before.

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07-28-2011, 07:50 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
I don't really care about "finger pointing", but Boyd's (or anyone in mgmts), insight into why a player was selected is pretty cool. The video I mentioned is a behind the scenes look on Brassards being drafted, and he has done pretty candid interviews before.
Probably didn't completely understand exactly what you were looking for. When you start talking about discussing moving up instead of taking Rusty you start getting into potential criticism of other people.

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07-31-2011, 10:36 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by georgiabluejacket View Post
Since I haven't seen it, what exactly was said/done? I do remember watching a "behind the scenes" video of the 2000 draft for the Thrashers in which you see Milbury informing Waddell that they were gonna take DiPietro over Heatley. As soon as Milbury walked off, Waddell turns to the camera man and says "I guess we're not taking Klesla tomorrow at #2, we're gonna take Heatley"
Let's just say that I'm not the only one who's of the opinion that the events surrounding the 2000 draft were history-changing ones for the future of the NHL. For the sake of arguments, let's take a quick look back.

There was a clear top four for that draft: Dipietro, Klesla, Heatley, and Gaborik. Dipietro was the wild card because goalies always are. Torres and Hartnell were the next level, then a huge cluster of Russians with a few random others thrown in. Regardless, no one in the top four was going to drop down a level to snag someone; they would trade back. By and large, it was regarded as an above-average draft with that clear top level, any one of whom was regarded as a sure-fire star.

The Islanders had no need to draft Dipietro. They'd picked Luongo in 1997 and he was coming along as expected; his future stardom was absolute. Defense was not a pressing need; Kenny Jonsson was there, and they had top prospects in Eric Brewer, Mathieu Biron, and Zdeno Chara (who was still extremely raw). Forwards...they had decent prospects, with high-end ones being Tim Connolly, Olli Jokinen, Josh Green, and Brad Isbister. What they did not have was a real high-end breakaway threat. Gaborik would have been the crown jewel on that.

Atlanta had a decent goaltending situation, so Dipietro was probably out. Their 1999 draft was almost entirely forwards, and the defensemen they had on the roster were largely feeble. Petr Buzek was the best, and he was half titanium at that point in his career anyway. Klesla would have been the pick here without question; had the Islanders taken him (which they wouldn't have done), it would have been Heatley.

Minnesota had a decent goaltending situation as well, having picked up Manny Fernandez in the expansion draft. For a comparable situation, Fernandez was a lot like Cory Schneider; he was a pretty good prospect who showed a lot in spot duty, but was behind a firmly-entrenched starter. They had no need for Dipietro, but could have taken him anyway. With the typical expansion draft roster, Heatley would have been the perfect complement.

So Columbus would be looking at Dipietro (who several teams wanted), the chance to trade back and accumulate picks/prospects/players, or taking one of Hartnell or Torres. There was no need for Dipietro, since Marc Denis had just been picked up. For those who don't remember or want to revise history, Denis was one of the three top goalie prospects in the world, trailing Luongo and roughly tied with Evgeni Nabokov.

But Milbury blew the whole thing up. Several teams had no idea that Luongo was available in the first place, and there were only 28 other teams that would have offered up a lot more than Mark Parrish and Oleg Kvasha to get him (plus Jokinen). It's very likely that, had he been offered, Luongo would have been on his way to Columbus for the 4th overall pick. But that didn't happen, so we're left to wonder what might have been.

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