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Francis Bouillon suffers setback in recovery

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Old
07-27-2011, 10:34 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
Where did he say players can't learn from players? You really undermine your own point when you purposely exaggerate his point in order to argue against it. He merely questioned whether Weber learned from O'Brien, which is a far cry from suggesting that no player can learn from another.

As for toughness and sticking up for your teammates. Personally, I think it's one of those intangibles in hockey that gets way too much value placed on it (along with 'hot' goalie). As long as your team isn't timid (i.e. Ville Peltonen), I don't think it is really that important to be tough. All things being equal, I'd rather have that 'sandpaper' but it just doesn't add significantly to the team.

I'm trying to work out in my head how O'Brien's presence actually changes opponents' desire to charge the net, etc. In the modern NHL where retaliation is limited, how many hockey players are afraid of doing something lest it mean some after the whistle shoving? And how many of those players who are afraid of that are the ones who charge the net?
I agree with all of the hockey points in this post. Obviously toughness is something you want on your team, but like you said, only when all other things are equal does it really play as big of a role as a lot of folks tend to think it does. The fact is people like to watch physical hockey, and they like to see their team win. If you see a game where your team not only outmuscles the other guys, but wins doing so, you'll likely keep that image in your head of how a game "should be played". That's fine. I just don't think losing Shane O'Brien is going to be a big deal, even if we only include his toughness and exclude all of the negatives he brought along with it.

As for keeping players from running our goalie, the players who do that on purpose will continue to do it. Guys like Perry and Cooke will always exist, and no matter who you put on the ice those guys know the worst that can happen is they drop the gloves and get knocked out. More likely they will simply drop to the ice and look like a wimp. They don't care. Shane O'Brien being on the ice didn't make Pekka Rinne look like a more protected goalie than any others in our history. He still got ran every now and then, once in the play offs right before Weber nearly took a murder charge.

edit: haha one of the mods might want to change the name of this thread and merge the two Bouillon posts over to a new thread Sorry for my part in hijacking it


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Old
07-27-2011, 11:10 PM
  #102
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I agree with all of the hockey points in this post. Obviously toughness is something you want on your team, but like you said, only when all other things are equal does it really play as big of a role as a lot of folks tend to think it does. The fact is people like to watch physical hockey, and they like to see their team win. If you see a game where your team not only outmuscles the other guys, but wins doing so, you'll likely keep that image in your head of how a game "should be played". That's fine. I just don't think losing Shane O'Brien is going to be a big deal, even if we only include his toughness and exclude all of the negatives he brought along with it.

As for keeping players from running our goalie, the players who do that on purpose will continue to do it. Guys like Perry and Cooke will always exist, and no matter who you put on the ice those guys know the worst that can happen is they drop the gloves and get knocked out. More likely they will simply drop to the ice and look like a wimp. They don't care. Shane O'Brien being on the ice didn't make Pekka Rinne look like a more protected goalie than any others in our history. He still got ran every now and then, once in the play offs right before Weber nearly took a murder charge.

edit: haha one of the mods might want to change the name of this thread and merge the two Bouillon posts over to a new thread Sorry for my part in hijacking it
We'll find this season if your theory is correct because Ducks and Canucks and Blackhawks and Detroit (which is a misconception because they are tough team along with their skill) and the Sharks will certainly test your theory when we play them. Players like Erat and Sk will be on their own and look for both to beat on because they are soft players and those teams know like teams know that if you muscle the Sedins that they'll fold like a cheap suit and that is what happened in the playoffs and led to the demise of the Canucks. I'm not saying that SOB didn't have lot of weaknesses as a defenseman but his strengths was his toughness and Trotz thought enough of him to play him on the penalty kill and during the playoffs was actually paired with Klein because Blum was a little overwhelmed against the Canucks. Blum will bounce back experience will make him better. The thread went in this direction because with the Cube unable to come back the question come up why didn't we resign SOB? Do you also don't believe in the hot goalie theory?

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07-28-2011, 10:21 AM
  #103
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Goalies do not win you games. I don't care who says "X stole that game for us", a goalie's job is to give his team the best chance to win. It is NOT to actually win the game. It is never a single player or action that wins a game. Ever. Goalies don't even deserve all of the credit for a shut out. Sure they deserve to be recognized, and likely deserve the first star of the game. They don't deserve all of the credit, though.

As for finding out whether or not we will miss one player's toughness when we come across the teams you mentioned, how is missing Shane O'Brien's 14 minutes of ES TOI going to make Erat and SK pay any worse? Usually those guys were on the ice with Weber/Suter or Blum/Klein anyway. Teams were also more likely to go after SOB himself knowing his habit of taking dumb, emotional penalties. Why go after Erat or SK when it might cost your team? Just go after the big dumb ogre instead. Also, comparing Erat and SK to the Sedins in terms of toughness, or lack thereof, is off base. The Sedins go down easily because it's how they've always played. They don't get called on it. Erat and SK, however, try to maintain possession of the puck and keep their ice. They don't bowl over with the first slight breeze.

These assumptions and comparisons are getting more and more out there.

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07-28-2011, 10:37 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Goalies do not win you games. I don't care who says "X stole that game for us", a goalie's job is to give his team the best chance to win. It is NOT to actually win the game. It is never a single player or action that wins a game. Ever. Goalies don't even deserve all of the credit for a shut out. Sure they deserve to be recognized, and likely deserve the first star of the game. They don't deserve all of the credit, though.

As for finding out whether or not we will miss one player's toughness when we come across the teams you mentioned, how is missing Shane O'Brien's 14 minutes of ES TOI going to make Erat and SK pay any worse? Usually those guys were on the ice with Weber/Suter or Blum/Klein anyway. Teams were also more likely to go after SOB himself knowing his habit of taking dumb, emotional penalties. Why go after Erat or SK when it might cost your team? Just go after the big dumb ogre instead. Also, comparing Erat and SK to the Sedins in terms of toughness, or lack thereof, is off base. The Sedins go down easily because it's how they've always played. They don't get called on it. Erat and SK, however, try to maintain possession of the puck and keep their ice. They don't bowl over with the first slight breeze.

These assumptions and comparisons are getting more and more out there.
Like I said we'll see... you don't believe goalies win you games ...ok and you say my assumptions are out there....lol then why does Goalies get pulled or traded . That ok I understand you now...I respect your opinion I don't agree with it but that's your opinion.

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07-28-2011, 10:39 AM
  #105
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I know I'm not a pro-level player, I'm far from it. But a goalie can "win" you a game. It's not even always about stopping everything, but a timely save can change momentum as much or more than a timely goal.

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07-28-2011, 10:47 AM
  #106
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I know I'm not a pro-level player, I'm far from it. But a goalie can "win" you a game. It's not even always about stopping everything, but a timely save can change momentum as much or more than a timely goal.
A change in momentum isn't enough to win a game. Winning a game takes capitalizing on that momentum swing. Winning a game takes outscoring the other team. Often times that also includes playing better defense, and having the better goalie. No one is going to convince me that a goalie can actually win a game... it just doesn't happen.

edit: didn't see rosey's post. Why do goalies get pulled? The same reason forwards get moved to lower lines, or defensemen see their ice time limited. They are playing poorly. How does that, in any way, prove a goalie can win games? Again, a win takes much more than a single position playing spectacularly. Even if a goalie NEVER allows a goal, they still need the support of forwards to score, forecheck, and back check, and they need defensemen who can limit quality chances and clear rebounds. They also need competent coaching who knows which match ups work best. They need a bit of luck for the times they get beat. If goalies can win games, posts can win games. I don't buy it.

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07-28-2011, 10:48 AM
  #107
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I'll give an example of a hot goalie and goalies that win you games. Tuuka Rask was the Boston goalie the season before and played unbelievable in his battle against Ryan Miller and pardon the phrase stole the series because when a minimum of goals are being scored Rask out played Miller the more touted goalie. But he cooled off and he was the goalie when Philly came back from down 3-1 to take the series and go on to the Cup finals against Chicago.

If Rinne didn't steal game 2 in Vancouver in the round two then I don't understand. Even the whole hockey world was atonished by his unbelievable saves and even Vancouver players tipped their hat to the unbelievable performance he performed

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07-28-2011, 10:53 AM
  #108
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How many goals did Rask score? Or Rinne? How many take aways did he have? How many turnovers did each force? What about line changes? How many of those did the two goalies make? I think people are assuming I mean goalies can't be the biggest reason for a win. That is possible. They simply don't 'win games'.

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07-28-2011, 10:57 AM
  #109
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Case in point: our first ever play off road win came after Weber tied the game off of a face off. Later, Jordin Tootoo made a pretty sick pass to set up the OT game winner...

Who won us that game? Was it Rinne for keeping the game close enough to tie it? Was it Fisher for winning the face off back to Franson? Or Franson for making the pass to Weber? Or Weber for scoring the tying goal? Was it Selanne for blowing his defensive coverage giving Franson the time to make the pass? Was it Trotz for realizing that Fisher often times pulls his draws back to his right, so he put Franson (RH) out with Weber rather than Suter (LH) in order to make the play go smoother? Was it Tootoo for making the pass for an easy chip in? Was it Smithson for putting the puck in the net?

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07-28-2011, 11:16 AM
  #110
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The 2 main things a "hot goalie" does, IMO, is:
1) Alter a teams typical play by making an opposing team shoot more fine to the corners, thereby missing the net instead of just putting the puck on net.
And 2) give confidence to your defense that the initial shot will be stopped and they can better relax and play their own game and role and even maybe take a chance on generating an odd-man rush.

These are in addition to the momentum changes of making that huge save.

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07-28-2011, 11:21 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by handtrick View Post
The 2 main things a "hot goalie" does, IMO, is:
1) Alter a teams typical play by making an opposing team shoot more fine to the corners, thereby missing the net instead of just putting the puck on net.
And 2) give confidence to your defense that the initial shot will be stopped and they can better relax and play their own game and role and even maybe take a chance on generating an odd-man rush.

These are in addition to the momentum changes of making that huge save.
good points.

I guess a goalie can't actually "win" a game but they can be the biggest factor in a win.

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07-28-2011, 11:45 AM
  #112
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is this headed for the "Game-Winning Goal" debate from a few seasons ago?

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07-28-2011, 11:48 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Goalies do not win you games. I don't care who says "X stole that game for us", a goalie's job is to give his team the best chance to win. It is NOT to actually win the game. It is never a single player or action that wins a game. Ever. Goalies don't even deserve all of the credit for a shut out. Sure they deserve to be recognized, and likely deserve the first star of the game. They don't deserve all of the credit, though.
Someday we're going to have to have a 0-0 24-round shootout or something similar in which the opposing goaltenders can take shots just to make this seem silly.

(Honestly, I completely agree. But that perverted scenario was what leapt to mind as soon as I read it, so... )

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07-28-2011, 04:03 PM
  #114
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All I can say is Patrick Roy, '93 Stanley Cup playoffs. It was either 11 or 9 straight one goal games he won for Montreal during the playoff run. When I say straight it was any time it was a one goal game, Montreal won it. That is a goalie winning you a Cup. It was probably one of the best goalie performances I've ever seen in the playoffs.

Lots of things add up to a team winning a game. It's like saying Erat cost us the Chicago series last year. He made a bad play but I can drum up a list of things that went wrong in that game/series.

By the way, isn't this thread about the Cube?

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07-28-2011, 06:29 PM
  #115
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By the way, isn't this thread about the Cube?
it is. we are just thinking outside the cube

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07-28-2011, 09:16 PM
  #116
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The Cube isn't coming back to this thread for the foreseeable future due to set backs in his recovery

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07-28-2011, 09:20 PM
  #117
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it is. we are just thinking outside the cube
Haaaaa. Well done.

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07-28-2011, 11:06 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
All I can say is Patrick Roy, '93 Stanley Cup playoffs. It was either 11 or 9 straight one goal games he won for Montreal during the playoff run. When I say straight it was any time it was a one goal game, Montreal won it. That is a goalie winning you a Cup. It was probably one of the best goalie performances I've ever seen in the playoffs.

Lots of things add up to a team winning a game. It's like saying Erat cost us the Chicago series last year. He made a bad play but I can drum up a list of things that went wrong in that game/series.

By the way, isn't this thread about the Cube?
I've enjoyed this discussion on hot goalies, and I guess I stated my position poorly. I think a goalie who is saving everything can win you games, series, Cups. What I should have stated is that I don't think Patrick Roy was "in the zone" and "seeing the puck better than normal" and "reacting sharper" in '93. I don't buy any of that.

Science has shown that there's no such thing as a hot shooter in basketball or a hot goalie in hockey. A basketball player who has made his previous shot is no more likely to make his next shot than normal (he's actually less likely as shooters who have made their previous shot tend to have poorer shot selection thinking they are in the groove). Similarly, a goalie who made the previous save is no more likely to make the next save than normal. If you scientifically break down saves, no amount of consecutive saves makes you any more likely to make the next save. A goalie who saves 30 consecutive shots isn't any more likely to save his 31st than if he had just allowed two goals previously.

What do I take from this? A hot goalie is merely the goalie who rolls sixes multiple times in a row. He's not "in the zone" any more so than a craps player or the guy who catches all the green lights on the way to work. Many shots rely on luck (seeing eye shots from the point) to go in and those goalies avoided those shots during their run. Not by their own doing, necessarily, but not having bad luck hit them. Often, the hot goalie is merely the very good to great goalie that's just getting slightly more breaks than normal (think Hasek in Buffalo's Cup run).

I didn't mean to imply that when he rolls multiple sixes that his team doesn't win games or series or Cups. I'm merely saying that a goalie we perceive as hot is just more fortunate than he normally is and a goalie we perceive as weak is often the opposite. Luongo was killed for his performances against Chicago, for example, yet the vast majority of his allowed goals were virtually unsaveable. He had the misfortune of facing near perfect shots from dangerous positions multiple times a game. Coaches think he needs pulled. I think he just needs a little fortune.

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07-29-2011, 02:46 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
All I can say is Patrick Roy, '93 Stanley Cup playoffs. It was either 11 or 9 straight one goal games he won for Montreal during the playoff run. When I say straight it was any time it was a one goal game, Montreal won it. That is a goalie winning you a Cup. It was probably one of the best goalie performances I've ever seen in the playoffs.

Lots of things add up to a team winning a game. It's like saying Erat cost us the Chicago series last year. He made a bad play but I can drum up a list of things that went wrong in that game/series.

By the way, isn't this thread about the Cube?
That was simply amazing they beat Kings with Gretzky. LA won the first game and Mtl won the next 4. What I remember about that series other than Roy and all 1 goal games was the coach Demeers called for refs to measure Marty McSorley stick for illegal stick and they got a pp and scored on it and won the game. Sorry but I was rooting for Gretzky but impressive nonetheless

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07-29-2011, 08:41 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
I've enjoyed this discussion on hot goalies, and I guess I stated my position poorly. I think a goalie who is saving everything can win you games, series, Cups. What I should have stated is that I don't think Patrick Roy was "in the zone" and "seeing the puck better than normal" and "reacting sharper" in '93. I don't buy any of that.
I'm going to have to disagree with you. It does in fact happen that a goalie will get "into a zone" and "see the puck better". Similarly a skater can get into the same type of zone.

The human brain typically processes what your eyes are seeing at about up to 30 frames per second. But in high intensity situations (such as a car accident or a burning building) the brain kicks into overdrive and can process sight much faster like 60 frames per second or more, this is why you hear stories about people in intense situations who say it seemed like everything was in slow motion.

Now of course a hockey game is an intense setting, but when you're a professional and you do play this game every day it's not enough to speed up brain processing significantly (although it is still faster than your typical person in an everyday situation) But there are still times when a guy will completely get into a zone and take it to the next level.

So in fact the players do "see the puck better than normal".


on a side note, this is why a higher frame rate on a television makes the picture look smoother, because you are only able to see 30 frames per second, if the television was only showing 30fps then you would occasionally miss a frame (not really noticeable), but at 40, 50, 60, 70fps the chance for a missed frame is significantly reduced.

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07-29-2011, 09:58 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
I've enjoyed this discussion on hot goalies, and I guess I stated my position poorly. I think a goalie who is saving everything can win you games, series, Cups. What I should have stated is that I don't think Patrick Roy was "in the zone" and "seeing the puck better than normal" and "reacting sharper" in '93. I don't buy any of that.

Science has shown that there's no such thing as a hot shooter in basketball or a hot goalie in hockey. A basketball player who has made his previous shot is no more likely to make his next shot than normal (he's actually less likely as shooters who have made their previous shot tend to have poorer shot selection thinking they are in the groove). Similarly, a goalie who made the previous save is no more likely to make the next save than normal. If you scientifically break down saves, no amount of consecutive saves makes you any more likely to make the next save. A goalie who saves 30 consecutive shots isn't any more likely to save his 31st than if he had just allowed two goals previously.

What do I take from this? A hot goalie is merely the goalie who rolls sixes multiple times in a row. He's not "in the zone" any more so than a craps player or the guy who catches all the green lights on the way to work. Many shots rely on luck (seeing eye shots from the point) to go in and those goalies avoided those shots during their run. Not by their own doing, necessarily, but not having bad luck hit them. Often, the hot goalie is merely the very good to great goalie that's just getting slightly more breaks than normal (think Hasek in Buffalo's Cup run).

I didn't mean to imply that when he rolls multiple sixes that his team doesn't win games or series or Cups. I'm merely saying that a goalie we perceive as hot is just more fortunate than he normally is and a goalie we perceive as weak is often the opposite. Luongo was killed for his performances against Chicago, for example, yet the vast majority of his allowed goals were virtually unsaveable. He had the misfortune of facing near perfect shots from dangerous positions multiple times a game. Coaches think he needs pulled. I think he just needs a little fortune.
The problem with this theory is that it assumes sports players are 100% consistent and will give exactly the same effort in exactly the same manner 100% of the time.

Athletes are not true random number generators. There's too many variables to be able to reach conclusions like that with confidence.

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07-29-2011, 10:36 AM
  #122
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I would have to agree with legion & visqi and add one more caveat.
Confidence (or "in the zone" as some people are refering to it) totally makes a difference about how the goalie plays the puck. For example, challenging the shooter, moving out of the blue ice to cut down the angles is an obvious one. A rattled goalie frequently plays small in the net whereas a "hot" goalie rarely does.

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07-29-2011, 10:42 AM
  #123
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So would it be fair to replace the term "hot goalie" with "confident goalie"? Confidence is a huge part in how any particular player performs.

I'm still not convinced that any position, even goalie, can actually win a team a game, though.

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07-29-2011, 10:55 AM
  #124
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So would it be fair to replace the term "hot goalie" with "confident goalie"? Confidence is a huge part in how any particular player performs.

I'm still not convinced that any position, even goalie, can actually win a team a game, though.
I would use the term, "In the groove goalie". Many times you hear goalies wanting to play all the time because they find a groove or a rhythm. When Rinne plays a lot, he appears to find his "zone" or whatever you'd like to call it. Confident is a good word or reference too.

As to your last comment, I think it depends on the team and the player you're talking about. A few players I can think about in a few different sports come to mind but it's a crazy discussion and I don't have the mental makeup to get into it right now...lol.

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07-29-2011, 11:05 AM
  #125
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As a goalie, thought I'd weigh in here.

No, a goalie cannot win a game. His job is to keep his team in the game and give his forwards a chance to win it, but he can't win it himself.

As far as confidence goes, I think the idea that consciously challenges more or less because of confidence is overblown. There may be a subconscious shift, but a goalie rarely thinks about challenging more or less based on play. Goalies, like every other positionally player, go on hot and cold streaks. They just happen for whatever reason, and there is no avoiding them. Just because a goalie is playing badly doesn't mean he has no confidence, its just a natural ebb and flow.

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