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Just how much do you value stats?

View Poll Results: How important are stats to you?
I look at stats as the main criteria when assessing a player... 10 18.18%
I look at stats as a way to gauge a player's worth to his team... 28 50.91%
I barely look at stats, but I see patterns in them that set standards... 15 27.27%
Stats don't mean anything as it's a team's sport... 2 3.64%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-28-2011, 01:53 AM
  #1
boomboommax
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I'm all about assessing performances and keeping a general perspective of how players manage year in, year out, but I can't help, but think that stats sometimes lie when looking at the big picture...

And so, when putting together a good team on the ice and judging how well it fairs, I feel like stats don't tell tell the full story...

Yet, I can't help but look at them... It seems only logical that anyone given a salary and a role on a team should chip in accordingly.

With all that being said...

How much do you value stats?


Last edited by boomboommax: 07-28-2011 at 02:07 AM.
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Old
07-28-2011, 02:14 AM
  #2
The Kremelin Wall*
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After last season watching Carey Price I don't care much about stats. He bailed us out way more times(in the regular season) than Tim Thomas did his team and Timmy ended up with record breaking stats. Not to mention Eller getting 17 points but being quite noticeable during the last few months.

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07-28-2011, 02:35 AM
  #3
Ohashi_Jouzu
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For primarily offensive players, it's the main thing I look at. They're paid to produce, not look good or make you believe they'd be awesome in a shinny game or skills comp, or lure you down hypothetical wonderings of "what they're capable of if every possible thing went their way one year"; goals and points are everything. For more defensive oriented players, I don't look at them too much, aside from key ones depending on role. It's the guys that straddle both lines who make it difficult.

For goalies, there really isn't much else to look at. Styles varied from Hasek to Roy have proven incredibly effective, but the one constant is the number of pucks they stop on average compared to other goalies against the same level/pool of competition (i.e. their sv% relative to their peers). While GAA and wins are predominantly team-based stats, some styles don't work as well on some teams as others, and sometimes it's interesting to see if/when a change of scenery results in drastic changes in those stats ('cause sometimes the sv% changes very little comparatively).

Having said all that, the benefit of experience and observation is what allows you to put the stats in better perspective/context than someone who is living in an undersea cave with access to nothing but hockeyreference.com. For example, you can't tell anything about effort or compete level from any of the commonly tracked stats, and those are important attributes for sure.

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Old
07-28-2011, 05:23 AM
  #4
HockeyF3ind
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If you actually peruse all the types of stats accessible on NHL.com you will discover that most roles on any team are measurable in stats.

That being said nothing beats watching the game for review of a player or team.

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Old
07-28-2011, 07:53 AM
  #5
Murky
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Stats are overrated in my opinion. They are good for some things for example goalies and offensive ability to some extend. Stats are good for confirming what you see on the ice and certainly better than hearsay in that regards. There is no comparison to actually seeing the player regularly. The reason for this is that stats do not cover nearly everything and while some things can be seen in the stats they are not apparent unless you know what to look for from seeing the player in action many times.

I recently got into argument in the history section but I retired before it really began. It was about Jari Kurri's value and the way stats are used to undermine his value to the Oilers dynasty is borderline sin towards the great sport. Everyone brings up that he played with Gretzky which is true and fair. But to see him play with Gretzky and Coffey so much just makes that argument so hollow. Kurri owes a lot to Gretzky and Gretzky owes some to Kurri like he has repeatedly said. While Coffey owes as much or more to Kurri for covering him which in turn allowed Gretzky to do even more magical things which benefitted all of them. It is a circle as in all team sports and there is no way to look at stats 25 years later and prove it by saying look at Coffey's stats: this or that percentage of them is Kurri while he didn't even register an assist on that many of Coffey's goals and that much is Gretzky, while Coffey himself with the Oilers was a phenomena. You had to see it a lot, like I did. I assume it is the same with old Habs dynasties as well, but sadly the Oilers peaked when I was around 20 and actually just started understanding what I saw.

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07-28-2011, 08:18 AM
  #6
Stjonnypopo
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Stats are good when they're taken in context. When you take them out of context and use them to prove a point, they're not as good.

For example: Two players score 100 points next season. One of them, his linemates score 90 points each, the other, his linemates score 40-50 points each. Are you going to tell me that both 100 point players are the same calibre?

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Old
07-28-2011, 08:29 AM
  #7
JHabs
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as said above brilliantly.

Stats are good, but as long as you take them into context.

Example:

Kovalchuk-Gomez-Parise

Scott Gomez gets 90 points 70 assists.

okay thats great but

Patches-Gomez-Gionta

Gomez gets 40 points

Stats are only good if you take them with a grain of salt and as mentioned, apply them in the right context. I consider them, but I don't use it as my be all tell all, for Juniors for example, you could not light up any league, stats would be subpar, and develop into a stud.

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Old
07-28-2011, 11:43 AM
  #8
Joe Cole
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Stats - my pet peeve.

When people cannot understand the game on the ice, they fall back on stats.

They are entirely useful, but so easy to use as a generalization and as a way to cover up a lack of understanding of the core fundamentals of the game.

I think certain stats are useful within context.

For example, for a defenseman know as a stopper.... I would like to see the following stats:

- -# and % of board battles won/lost
- pk % effectiveness

For an offensive D, I would like to see....

-# and % of successful breakouts.
-# and % of times he enters the offensive end and controls the puck
-# and % of successful carries through the neutral zone

For a powerforward...

-# and % of puck battles won
-# and % of territory battle wins in the crease


Last edited by Habsfan18: 07-28-2011 at 02:54 PM. Reason: merged posts
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Old
07-28-2011, 11:55 AM
  #9
SouthernHab
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Stats are fun to look at but are not absolute. There are just too many variables that happen on the ice during any given game that can skew the real effectiveness of an individual player.

Team statistics......not a reliable indicator of which team is actually better on the ice. Again, too many variables.

But statistics do lead to interesting conversations.

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Old
07-28-2011, 11:58 AM
  #10
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I value... INTANGIBLES.

Jonathan Toews is Captain Intangibles.

Give me intangibles over a 100 point getter and Rocket Richard winner.

When you have intangibles, the sky is the limit.

Repeat after me.

I-N-T-A-N-G-I-B-L-E-S!
I-N-T-A-N-G-I-B-L-E-S!
I-N-T-A-N-G-I-B-L-E-S!
I-N-T-A-N-G-I-B-L-E-S!

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07-28-2011, 12:01 PM
  #11
LyricalLyricist
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I look at stats as the main criteria when assessing a player...

That being said, they are the basis of a lot of my arguements and discussions but at same time, the stats are not foolproof. I am not afraid to admit the first thing I look at is stats. End of the day, that's what it comes down to, wins, goals, points, whatever. I may miss 100 scoring chances in one game by said individual, but him missing so much also says something about the player.

To clarify, my reasoning isn't entirely stats based, but it's my first and strongest point but there's room for margin of error and flexibility, without proper context and fair analysis stats are rather meaningless.

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07-28-2011, 12:39 PM
  #12
LyleOdelein
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Stats are definitely a useful way to gauge a player's value, as long as the limitations of the specific statistics being used are recognized in the evaluation process.

Production extrapolations based on small sample sizes, plus/minus, GWGs, giveaways, hits and even faceoff percentage to an extent are thrown around without consideration of some of the inherent problems that occur when considering the problems of taking them at face value without considering of quality of competition, bias in recording stats (like hits and giveaways) and other variables.

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07-28-2011, 01:29 PM
  #13
Blind Gardien
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75% of the time, stats give you about 95% of the story. If you use them right.

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07-28-2011, 01:57 PM
  #14
DekeLikeYouMeanIt
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Stats are money, brah!

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07-28-2011, 10:18 PM
  #15
Protest the Hero
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Stats are the first thing I look at when assessing a guy I don't know about, but I'd rather watch them play to properly gauge them.

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07-28-2011, 10:39 PM
  #16
Kriss E
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Depends which Stats and how you manipulate them.

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07-28-2011, 10:54 PM
  #17
Hackett
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in before mathman

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07-28-2011, 10:55 PM
  #18
otto bond
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The greatest player to ever played according to many is Wayne Gretzky. How many points does the Geat One have? 2857 and 894 goals. WTF you guys talking about, it's alll about stats.

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07-28-2011, 10:59 PM
  #19
uiCk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
75% of the time, stats give you about 95% of the story. If you use them right.

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07-29-2011, 03:13 AM
  #20
MasterDecoy
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if the habs taught us anything, it's that stats aren't everything

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07-29-2011, 10:52 AM
  #21
Teufelsdreck
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Stats are secondary to my first hand impressions of players. I guess that stamps me as a romantic rather than a robot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
The greatest player to ever played according to many is Wayne Gretzky. How many points does the Geat One have? 2857 and 894 goals. WTF you guys talking about, it's alll about stats.
There's no denying his numbers. However, if I didn't know them and I were starting a team I might pick Mario Lemieux over him.

By the way, I consider Bobby Orr to be the greatest ever and my all-time hockey hero remains Maurice Richard for sentimental reasons.


Last edited by Mike8: 07-29-2011 at 11:26 AM.
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07-29-2011, 12:13 PM
  #22
otto bond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Stats are secondary to my first hand impressions of players. I guess that stamps me as a romantic rather than a robot.



There's no denying his numbers. However, if I didn't know them and I were starting a team I might pick Mario Lemieux over him.

By the way, I consider Bobby Orr to be the greatest ever and my all-time hockey hero remains Maurice Richard for sentimental reasons.
Ironic, the only defenseman to lead the league in scoring...numbers are everything.
Also, my favorite player of all time is Mario Lemieux. Give him a healty 20 year career and he and Gretzky are closer in points.

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07-29-2011, 12:20 PM
  #23
Gros Bill
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Lies, damned lies and statistics ...

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