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Ranger vs. Islander young forwards

View Poll Results: Who has better young forwards?
Rangers by a lot 13 9.49%
Rangers by a little 19 13.87%
About the same 11 8.03%
Islanders by a little 58 42.34%
Islanders by a lot 36 26.28%
Voters: 137. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-29-2011, 09:07 AM
  #51
Wraparounds
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I think overall, the Islanders have a better potential group of forwards. It's very top-heavy though. Rangers have superior depth, but lack the top-end talent that the Islanders can have.

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07-29-2011, 09:08 AM
  #52
ColonialsHockey10
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The Islanders group, fairy easily. Tavares, Okposo, Neilsen (who is not getting nearly enough credit in this thread), Moulson, Bailey and Grabner is a little better then Dubinsky, Stepan, Callahan, Anisimov. While their forward prospect group isn't as deep as ours, Nino and Strome, especially the latter, have a lot more upside then our group. Prospects are prospects however, let's see how they turn out.

However, our defense and goaltending is far far better, and I think we are in better shape then them for the future. The fact that this is even a thread is sad considering where each team has been in the standings, and I think it shows what a disgrace the Islanders management has been....what a joke.

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07-29-2011, 09:19 AM
  #53
ColonialsHockey10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongIslanders90 View Post
Those to are potential game changers for you guys..

I would say Staal is the best followed by AMAC and Hammer then Sauer...the rest we need to wait and see how they pan out....MDZ is ahead of the prospects though...
Lol, so Hamonic has firmly cemented himself after Staal, while McDonagh is still unproven? I guarantee you, if McDonagh was put in the same position Hamonic was he would have performed just as well. The Islanders had nothing to lose, Hamonic got top pairing minutes as a shutdown defenseman, while averaging 2 minutes of power play time per game. McDonagh was sheltered on the 2nd pair behind an established shutdown pair, and averaged 6 seconds of PP time per game.

Also funny how Girardi just doesn't get put on any list, when he's only 2 years older then MacDonald, much more experienced, and the same age as Callahan and Dubinsky.


Last edited by ColonialsHockey10: 07-29-2011 at 09:46 AM.
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Old
07-29-2011, 09:59 AM
  #54
GAGLine
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First round picks since the lockout:

2011
isles: 5th overall
Rangers: 15th overall

2010
isles: 5th overall
Rangers: 10th overall

2009
isles: 1st overall
isles: 12th overall
Rangers: 19th overall

2008
isles: 9th overall
Rangers: 20th overall

2007
isles: 15th overall, traded for Ryan Smyth
Rangers: 17th overall (Cherepanov)

2006
isles: 7th overall
Rangers: 21st overall

2005
isles: 15th overall
Rangers: 16th overall (traded up to 12th for Staal)


So since the lockout, the islanders have had 5 picks that were higher than any pick we've had in that time, including two 5th overalls and a 1st overall. If islander fans want to pat themselves on the back for sucking for the last 7 years, have fun.


Last edited by GAGLine: 07-29-2011 at 10:17 AM.
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Old
07-29-2011, 10:02 AM
  #55
Nich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 View Post
The Islanders group, fairy easily. Tavares, Okposo, Neilsen (who is not getting nearly enough credit in this thread), Moulson, Bailey and Grabner is a little better then Dubinsky, Stepan, Callahan, Anisimov. While their forward prospect group isn't as deep as ours, Nino and Strome, especially the latter, have a lot more upside then our group. Prospects are prospects however, let's see how they turn out.

However, our defense and goaltending is far far better, and I think we are in better shape then them for the future. The fact that this is even a thread is sad considering where each team has been in the standings, and I think it shows what a disgrace the Islanders management has been....what a joke.
Disagree, I don't think we have a single goalie prospect that projects as a NHL starter.

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07-29-2011, 10:05 AM
  #56
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Disagree, I don't think we have a single goalie prospect that projects as a NHL starter.
Thats because we have lundqvist and hes top 3 in the game. Reason why we win the goalie situation. There will be other goalie prospects that we will draft in the coming years or sign a youngster playing out of his mind from a Euro league

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07-29-2011, 10:10 AM
  #57
ColonialsHockey10
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Originally Posted by Nich View Post
Disagree, I don't think we have a single goalie prospect that projects as a NHL starter.
This isn't just prospects, Lundqvist is astronomically better then anything the Islanders have in their system, and has plenty left in the tank.

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07-29-2011, 10:19 AM
  #58
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can we also not forget that although we dont have the high end talent as prospects, but lets not forget that we have our top end players NOW in Brad Richards and Marian Gaborik. In the next year or two we may very well be able to trade some of our depth for a YOUNG top end player.

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07-29-2011, 10:23 AM
  #59
Nich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 View Post
This isn't just prospects, Lundqvist is astronomically better then anything the Islanders have in their system, and has plenty left in the tank.
you guys notice that the point of this thread is to compare YOUNG players right?

And yes Hank has tons left in the tank, but generally goalies take at least 5 years from being drafted to being ready for prime time. 5 years from now Hank will be 34....

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07-29-2011, 10:32 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Yeah, it's funny reading Isle fans praise the offensive prowess of players who got (significantly) outscored by PAP. I suspect that on a different team, all their players except JT would be scoring 15-20% less just because they would 1) play fewer minutes if they had better teammates; and 2) would be forced to play defense.
i understand your point about playing less, but wouldnt them having better teammates increase their production?

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07-29-2011, 10:34 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Nich View Post
you guys notice that the point of this thread is to compare YOUNG players right?

And yes Hank has tons left in the tank, but generally goalies take at least 5 years from being drafted to being ready for prime time. 5 years from now Hank will be 34....
Honestly if the player is under 30 they're still considered young in my book, but I'll play along and remove him from my list, giving the Isles a decisive edge on goaltending. Lundqvist is far from old though.

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07-29-2011, 10:43 AM
  #62
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This one isnt close.

The Isles have 5 top-10 draft picks who are forwards. Not to mention Grabner and Moulson who are 30-goal scorers.

Okposo
Tavares
Bailey
Nino
Strome

That is a lot of high-end skill right there. We dont have a single prospect who comes close to Tavares or Strome from a skill standpoint.

Basically, the Isles have 3 young players who have already scored 30. Moulson is a young 27 when you consider how little he's played.

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07-29-2011, 11:12 AM
  #63
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Well they SHOULD have better offensive talent considering...

1. They have had top picks

2. They've picked forwards

Whereas the Rangers have had low picks and have gone with defenseman.

I don't really care what the Islanders have.
Here's what I know, the Rangers are ONE more top 6 forward away from being legit cup contenders. imo
Whereas you can't say the same for the Islanders.

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Old
07-29-2011, 11:36 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigmatic View Post
i understand your point about playing less, but wouldnt them having better teammates increase their production?
If they had better inmates, yes. If they had better teammates, no.

Do you see Hamonic getting significant power play time on a contender?

Look at Gartner. He got an opportunity to play and to his credit ran with it, but were he on a worded team last year, he would not get to play as much, at least not early on.

Do you see PAP getting enough ice time on a contender to score 53 points?

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07-29-2011, 11:45 AM
  #65
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If next year we draft a pair of forwards in the first two rounds, as we should, and they will draft a pair of defensemen, as they should, we will have better forwards.

It's a mistake to say both Strome and Nino will ve first liners. Based on past #5 picks, odds say either both are second liners or one is a first liner and one is a bust.

There is a very significant drop off in talent from #2 to #5. At #2, you can rely on getting a quality second liner or better. At #5, it's more hype than reality. Your odds of getting a 60 point per season first liner are no better than 50-50.

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07-29-2011, 11:55 AM
  #66
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Also, the Rangers have a bunch of high risk, high reward guys: Thomas, Fasth, St. Croix and McColgan.

Individually none compare to Strome right now as prospects, but together the odds of one of them turning into a 60+ point scorer are at least as good as Strome's.

I think Strome has 50-50 odds.
St. Croix and McColgan are 5% each.
Fasth 20%.
Thomas 30%.

So I would say there is a 60% chance one of our guys turns into a first liner.

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07-29-2011, 12:01 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Hagelin is better than Anders Lee
I would just like to point out, as a college hockey fan and a close follower of the CCHA (Michigan, to be exact) this is definitely not the case.

To put things in perspective, Anders Lee had a more successful freshman campaign than the Rangers' beloved Kreider. He is definitely on a different level than Carl Hagelin and the only aspect of Hagelin's game that's above Lee's at the same stage of their development is skating. I don't see Hagelin as being more than a speedy checker who is a mainstay on the PK if he gets a full time job in the NHL. Lee on the other hand has a more dangerous offensive arsenal and just as good of an all-around game, if not better due to his puck control along the boards.

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07-29-2011, 12:02 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Yeah, it's funny reading Isle fans praise the offensive prowess of players who got (significantly) outscored by PAP. I suspect that on a different team, all their players except JT would be scoring 15-20% less just because they would 1) play fewer minutes if they had better teammates; and 2) would be forced to play defense.
PAP only scored that much because he was on the 1st line the whole year with JT!!!

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07-29-2011, 12:08 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Well they SHOULD have better offensive talent considering...

1. They have had top picks

2. They've picked forwards

Whereas the Rangers have had low picks and have gone with defenseman.

I don't really care what the Islanders have.
Here's what I know, the Rangers are ONE more top 6 forward away from being legit cup contenders. imo
Whereas you can't say the same for the Islanders.
Having Queen Henrik, Staal, and Gaborik, plus Callahan(who is one of my favoriteplayers) a solid D, and solid fowards makes you a cup contender IMO.....you guys just gotta put it together thats all.....

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07-29-2011, 12:10 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by StrongIslanders90 View Post
PAP only scored that much because he was on the 1st line the whole year with JT!!!
Exactly. That's why I said that on a better team, JT scores more because he still gets top minutes, but with better inmates, while lesser players would all play fewer minutes, often with defensive third line linemates.

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07-29-2011, 12:12 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by StrongIslanders90 View Post
Having Queen Henrik, Staal, and Gaborik, plus Callahan(who is one of my favoriteplayers) a solid D, and solid fowards makes you a cup contender IMO.....you guys just gotta put it together thats all.....

We could definitely use a Moulson type of player. That's the missing piece.

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07-29-2011, 12:42 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Also, the Rangers have a bunch of high risk, high reward guys: Thomas, Fasth, St. Croix and McColgan.
How are they high risk? Thomas was on the only one picked before the 4th round. I think you're confusing high risk with high bust potential. They aren't the same thing. Picking a boom or bust player in the 4th round or later isn't a risk. And even though Thomas was a 2nd rounder, I don't think his bust potential is that high.

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07-29-2011, 12:52 PM
  #73
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How are they high risk? Thomas was on the only one picked before the 4th round. I think you're confusing high risk with high bust potential. They aren't the same thing. Picking a boom or bust player in the 4th round or later isn't a risk. And even though Thomas was a 2nd rounder, I don't think his bust potential is that high.

High risk not in the sense that we gave up a lot for them, but in the sense that there is a high probability of them not making it at all.

Look at Kreider. He can be a first liner. But if all fails, he can still be an NHL player in a Sjostrom role. I would say that he has a 20% chance of being a first liner, 30% of being a second liner, 30% of being a third liner, 10% fourth liner and only 10% to be a bust.

Not so much with Thomas. Thomas has a 40% chance being an outright bust, 30% of being a first liner and 30% of being a second liner. I really don't see how he can be a role player.

So with Thomas, the risk of being an outright bust is 4 times higher than with Kreider, which is what makes him high-risk or boom/bust if you will.

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07-29-2011, 12:57 PM
  #74
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Good point... The Isles rushed Bailey and it looks like he will be no more than 3rd line player. Bailey was in the same draft as Stepan and look at the difference in players. Stepan was developed the right way.

Okposo was rushed also but not as much
The Rangers rushed MDZ... I bet if he did another year in the CHL, then AHL - he would be much more ready for the coming season...

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07-29-2011, 01:04 PM
  #75
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The Rangers rushed MDZ... I bet if he did another year in the CHL, then AHL - he would be much more ready for the coming season...

Nobody wanted to rush MDZ, but he was so good as an 18 year old in preseason that people were waiting for him with baited breath the following preseason when he was even better as a 19 year old. When the regular season started, he had 9 points in the first 9 games that were supposed to be his tryout. How do you send a kid back when he performs like that?

I am not sure spending a year in juniors instead of the Rangers would have been helpful. He would just dominate everyone there. Other than confidence, it would do nothing else for him.

Last year was a step back, but it was a necessary step back. He went down to Hartford and scored 2/3 of a point per game. MDZ may well get more Hartford experience this year, then come back to the Rangers with a vengeance.

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