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Ranger vs. Islander young forwards

View Poll Results: Who has better young forwards?
Rangers by a lot 13 9.49%
Rangers by a little 19 13.87%
About the same 11 8.03%
Islanders by a little 58 42.34%
Islanders by a lot 36 26.28%
Voters: 137. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-30-2011, 05:55 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
I think you have these 3 in the wrong order. Neiderreiter has the highest upside of the 3, Kreider has better upside then Thomas plus the fact he is the safest guy of the 3 to end up a serviceable player if he doesn't reach that upside and Thomas to me is boom or bust
I'd say Kreider has a higher upside than Nino. Thomas is a better goal scorer, too. If he can play in the NHL with his size he'll be better.

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07-30-2011, 06:05 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
I'd say Kreider has a higher upside than Nino. Thomas is a better goal scorer, too. If he can play in the NHL with his size he'll be better.
I am guessing if I went to 30 GMs and gave them the choice of any one of the 3 guys for free nobody would take Thomas, and more would take Nino over Kreider. While Hockey Futures or the Hockey News is not the be all and end all of who will be a better player in the future there is a reason Nino is top 10 while Kreider ranks significantly lower on the lists


Last edited by boredmale: 07-30-2011 at 06:15 AM.
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07-30-2011, 06:09 AM
  #103
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I am guessing if I went to 30 GMs and gave them the choice of any of the 3 guys for free nobody would take Thomas, and more would take Nino over Kreider
They wouldn't because of the same reason Thomas went in the second round. If he can overcome his size, like I said, he has more goal scoring potential.

Kreider has the tools to be a better player, too.

Also Callahan and Dubinsky are much better than Comeau, he shouldn't be anywhere near them.

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07-30-2011, 06:22 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
They wouldn't because of the same reason Thomas went in the second round. If he can overcome his size, like I said, he has more goal scoring potential
Plan and simple Thomas is in a tier below Kreider or Nino in terms of potential in the NHL. Given the choice of Kreider or Thomas, I take Kreider and don't even have to think twice about it

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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Kreider has the tools to be a better player, too
Completely ignoring Tavares, I could make the argument that any player on that list has the tools to be better then any other player. I don't find that the greatest of arguments.

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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Also Callahan and Dubinsky are much better than Comeau, he shouldn't be anywhere near them.
I am not saying Comeau is better then them, I am saying if jack of all trades master of none type players get rated that high then Comeau should have a little more love then being the bottom of the list under alot of fringe boom or bust type prospects since statistically he is roughly at the same level as both, and maybe they slightly better in other trades as well but it's not that big a leap


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07-30-2011, 06:38 AM
  #105
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Considering the Islanders have had a plethora of high draft picks, they should win this and they do. But not by much.

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07-30-2011, 06:44 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
I think you have these 3 in the wrong order. Neiderreiter has the highest upside of the 3, Kreider has better upside then Thomas plus the fact he is the safest guy of the 3 to end up a serviceable player if he doesn't reach that upside and Thomas to me is boom or bust
Neiderreiter is right up there with the likes of Dylan McIlrath and Nazem Kadri as one of the most overrated prospects in the league. Kreider does not have better upside than Thomas. He may be the safer player to become a regular NHLer, but Thomas has by far the highest ceiling of the three. If Thomas makes it in this league, he'll do so scoring a lot of goals. Because I think the chances that Thomas makes it are relatively high, I'll put him over them. Kreider and Nino are both mentally raw players who have spent most of their collegiate/junior careers relying on physical advantages instead of learning to play the game the right way. That's not going to fly in the NHL. They're going to have to make big changes to the way they play. Don't count me among the people that believe they'll be totally successful. Solid, contributing players, probably good second liners, but not likely to be stars.

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I also think you are giving way to much love to borderline Ranger prospects(fasth, Hagelin, MZA, Lindberg) that are somewhat boom or Bust(if jack of all trade, master of none type players like Callahan and Dubinsky are 3 and 4 on your list then jack of all trades, master of none Comeau should be way higher then the Rangers fringe prospects)
Huh? Ryan Callahan is a "master" of almost everything, excluding offensive skills, where he is still significantly above-average. He's one of the best defensive forwards in the league. He's a model of excellence and consistency in every aspect of play away from the puck. Both he and Dubinsky are among the league's best second liners, and are serviceable first line fill-ins, especially if they are playing with two legit 1st liners. Comeau is an above average at best, third liner. There is no comparison between him and Callahan/Dubinsky.

Also, I don't know how you could watch a single shift of either Fasth or Hagelin and call them "fringe" prospects. Hagelin is probably one of the safest prospects in the Rangers pool, and figures to be one of the league's best role players by the time he hits his prime. Probably one of the most mentally well-prepared prospects in the game today. Fasth is probably the most underrated prospect in the Rangers organization. He has 25 goal second liner written all over him.

EDIT- After a second thought, I'd probably put Comeau above MZA, Lindberg, and Nelson on that list.


Last edited by NYR Sting: 07-30-2011 at 06:52 AM.
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Old
07-30-2011, 07:02 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Kreider does not have better upside than Thomas. He may be the safer player to become a regular NHLer, but Thomas has by far the highest ceiling of the three.
Let's be honest here in a perfect world Thomas comes in and becomes a 30 goal 60 point winger during his prime, I see Kreider come in get roughly that amount of point give or take 10 points either way and provide so much more

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07-30-2011, 07:04 AM
  #108
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At least Kadri's put up essentially a PPG in the AHL.

The two most overrated prospects in the NHL are Nino and Schenn.

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07-30-2011, 07:10 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
Let's be honest here in a perfect world Thomas comes in and becomes a 30 goal 60 point winger during his prime, I see Kreider come in get roughly that amount of point give or take 10 points either way and provide so much more
And I see Kreider being a guy that has arguably the greatest set of physical tools to work with that we've ever seen, but never being able to put it all together. Imagine you've been playing the sport that is based so much in instinctual, habitual reactions for your entire life and you never had to think about anything, because you were always a lot faster than every other person you played with, and stronger than nearly all of them, as well. Now, you show up, and all of a sudden, your not quite that much faster than everyone else, and you certainly aren't stronger than everyone else. It's really not that easy to change things like that. That's why so many highly touted power forwards don't work out. They just can't re-learn the game.

Kreider is definitely going to have a successful NHL career. He's too good not to be a very useful player. Hopefully, coaching and teammates will inspire him to evolve his style of play, but I wouldn't be surprised if he never scores 30 goals or hits 60 points. He definitely can, it's just a matter of being able to figure it all out. If he wasn't as raw mentally as he was, he probably would have been a top 5-10 draft pick. That's how great his physical tools are. I really hope I'm wrong, though. If he can figure it out upstairs, he could be a superstar.

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07-30-2011, 07:12 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
At least Kadri's put up essentially a PPG in the AHL.

The two most overrated prospects in the NHL are Nino and Schenn.
He's the next Scott Gomez. Ton of talent, big lack of brains.

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07-30-2011, 07:25 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
At least Kadri's put up essentially a PPG in the AHL.

The two most overrated prospects in the NHL are Nino and Schenn.
would you like to explain yourself? all of your posts seem to repeat themselves. "the islanders prospects are overrated and the rangers prospects are great." we'll see in a few years when nino is a 65-70 point player and kreider is packing bags at shoprite.

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07-30-2011, 08:18 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
At least Kadri's put up essentially a PPG in the AHL.

The two most overrated prospects in the NHL are Nino and Schenn.
Nino has only played 9 NHL games and went back to Portland where he increased his numbers and they would of been greater if he wasnt playing in the World Juniors.

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07-30-2011, 09:06 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Tavares and Strome are head and shoulders ahead of everyone else here in terms of offensive talent, and that does give the Islanders an advantage. We have more depth, however, and they don't really have a counterpart for Callahan, either.

Here's how I would rank both team's forwards (including prospects) in terms of value, taking account current status, future potential, and chances of reaching said potential.

Tavares
Strome
Callahan
Dubinsky
Stepan
Grabner
Moulson
Thomas
Kreider
Neiderreiter
Anisimov
Nielsen
Fasth
Miller
Bailey
Kabanov
Hagelin
MZA
Nelson
Lindberg
Comeau

There's a significant drop at this point, so I'll stop here.
Nice list IMO.

I would make a few minor tweaks though. I would take Kabanov off completely, not a fan. Anders Lee deserves a spot on there over him.

Unless you left him out for some reason you forgot Okposo, I would probably put him in that Grabner/Stepan/Moulson tier. Other than that I would swap Nino, with Kreider, I agree with you that he is overrated but I still think he deserves to be a little higher. And you already said you probably should of put Comeau a few spots higher so no problem there.



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would you like to explain yourself? all of your posts seem to repeat themselves. "the islanders prospects are overrated and the rangers prospects are great." we'll see in a few years when nino is a 65-70 point player and kreider is packing bags at shoprite.
Ranger fans please ignore this guy.

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07-30-2011, 10:21 PM
  #114
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When did I say the Islanders prospects are overrated, besides Nino, Comeau and Bailey? I'm probably one of the biggest "fans" of Tavares here and am miserable you guys have him, he's an absolute stud. Strome is the dynamic player you've been needing for a while now, since you went with JT over the flashier Duchene (which I agree with) and will be an integral part of your top 6 more likely than not.

I think Nino can be a very good second line player, possibly first line tweener in the mold of Dubinsky. But Kreider's tools are absolutely ridiculous and if both he and Nino can play at the NHL and overcome their lack of hockey IQ, Kreider is in position to be the better player. I don't know how you could possibly say Nino is going to dominate the NHL while Kreider won't because Nino's put up gaudy numbers (not even as ridiculous as a smaller guy like CT) in the OHL.

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07-31-2011, 01:00 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
The big advantage the Rangers have over the Islanders is...
The biggest advantage the Rangers have over the Islanders is that the Rangers are not the Islanders.

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07-31-2011, 01:39 AM
  #116
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Nice list IMO.

I would make a few minor tweaks though. I would take Kabanov off completely, not a fan. Anders Lee deserves a spot on there over him.

Unless you left him out for some reason you forgot Okposo, I would probably put him in that Grabner/Stepan/Moulson tier. Other than that I would swap Nino, with Kreider, I agree with you that he is overrated but I still think he deserves to be a little higher. And you already said you probably should of put Comeau a few spots higher so no problem there.
I did forget about Okposo, good call. I don't know, I feel like his actual on ice ability hasn't caught up to the intangibles that he gets a lot of credit for. I think I'd put him above the Thomas/Kreider/Nino grouping.

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07-31-2011, 02:03 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I did forget about Okposo, good call. I don't know, I feel like his actual on ice ability hasn't caught up to the intangibles that he gets a lot of credit for. I think I'd put him above the Thomas/Kreider/Nino grouping.
I like Okposo a lot, I think i'd put him under Dubi and Cally. I think he tops out as basically Dubinsky.


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07-31-2011, 01:33 PM
  #118
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Isles by a mile. Rangers are better than they could be being an also run team that had never tanked it.

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07-31-2011, 02:20 PM
  #119
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The biggest advantage the Rangers have over the Islanders is that the Rangers are not the Islanders.
Ouch

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08-02-2011, 01:14 PM
  #120
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I think Nino can be a very good second line player, possibly first line tweener in the mold of Dubinsky. But Kreider's tools are absolutely ridiculous and if both he and Nino can play at the NHL and overcome their lack of hockey IQ, Kreider is in position to be the better player. I don't know how you could possibly say Nino is going to dominate the NHL while Kreider won't because Nino's put up gaudy numbers (not even as ridiculous as a smaller guy like CT) in the OHL.
When it comes to the Nino vs. Kreider argument, I think there's no question Kreider has more natural talent, however, Niederreiter plays a more adaptable game and also has better on-ice IQ. That said, Islander fans shouldn't expect more than a 60 point all-around forward from what I've seen of Nino. I think Niederreiter's biggest hurdle is going to be his work ethic, which is common with young prospects. Kreider's hurdle is much greater. One can only improve their on-ice IQ so much once they've gotten to this point in development. So far, Kreider's lack of IQ is evident at the college level. It will be magnified even more so once he hits NHL ice. On top of that, he also has to improve his work ethic.

Kreider hasn't even lived up to expectations in college yet, so it's a real stretch to stack him up against other prospects who have at least done what they're supposed to do at the amateur level (as Niederreiter has). I'm still waiting for a PPG season with Boston College, much like I was waiting for one from Blake Wheeler in Minnesota. This will be Kreider's third year, which I believe will be his last (like Blake) and I don't see him putting one up (again, like Blake) barring a revelation on his part. I honestly believe Kreider will end up having a Wheeler-like trajectory and end up playing a similar game in the NHL, as he already has had a similar path in college. At times dominating, but for the most part you wouldn't even know he was on the ice unless he's putting the puck in the net.

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08-02-2011, 02:04 PM
  #121
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When it comes to the Nino vs. Kreider argument, I think there's no question Kreider has more natural talent, however, Niederreiter plays a more adaptable game and also has better on-ice IQ. That said, Islander fans shouldn't expect more than a 60 point all-around forward from what I've seen of Nino. I think Niederreiter's biggest hurdle is going to be his work ethic, which is common with young prospects. Kreider's hurdle is much greater. One can only improve their on-ice IQ so much once they've gotten to this point in development. So far, Kreider's lack of IQ is evident at the college level. It will be magnified even more so once he hits NHL ice. On top of that, he also has to improve his work ethic.

Kreider hasn't even lived up to expectations in college yet, so it's a real stretch to stack him up against other prospects who have at least done what they're supposed to do at the amateur level (as Niederreiter has). I'm still waiting for a PPG season with Boston College, much like I was waiting for one from Blake Wheeler in Minnesota. This will be Kreider's third year, which I believe will be his last (like Blake) and I don't see him putting one up (again, like Blake) barring a revelation on his part. I honestly believe Kreider will end up having a Wheeler-like trajectory and end up playing a similar game in the NHL, as he already has had a similar path in college. At times dominating, but for the most part you wouldn't even know he was on the ice unless he's putting the puck in the net.
not sure i can disagree more with your opinions on Kreider...though i do tend to agree with what you say about Nino...Kreider has actually gotten extremely good at playing both sides of the puck, and being in the right places at the right time, and when i watch BC games he always stands out as one of their best players...and the bigger the games, the better he plays. with Chris it's been about playing time...he just hasnt gotten enough of it, and not enough high leverage time either.

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08-02-2011, 03:24 PM
  #122
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Considering the Islanders have had a plethora of high draft picks, they should win this and they do. But not by much.
This. For as garbage as the Islanders have been for the last decade+, they should have a franchise player for every roster spot.

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08-02-2011, 04:29 PM
  #123
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This. For as garbage as the Islanders have been for the last decade+, they should have a franchise player for every roster spot.
Mike Milbury set that franchise back, wayyyyyy way back.

One bonehead move takes a while to recover from, he made so many I lost count.

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08-02-2011, 05:44 PM
  #124
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not sure i can disagree more with your opinions on Kreider...though i do tend to agree with what you say about Nino...Kreider has actually gotten extremely good at playing both sides of the puck, and being in the right places at the right time, and when i watch BC games he always stands out as one of their best players...and the bigger the games, the better he plays. with Chris it's been about playing time...he just hasnt gotten enough of it, and not enough high leverage time either.
I wanted to say this after reading some of these arguements.. BC didnt give Krieder any 1st or 2nd line time not because he wasnt skilled enough to.. its because BC plays their seniors as their top line players - "getting most important minutes" - Krieder is now a senior and will be getting 1st line minutes and linemates, so we will finally see what kind of numbers he can put up this season. Even tho he hasnt gotten much ice time, but he is noticeable in the game with the time he is given on ice. With that time he has been able to learn how to play two way hockey, which was essential if he was ever going to be anything in the nhl. When he has been put on the ice against other great talents his age and in important games, he has shown up and dominated games.

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08-02-2011, 05:46 PM
  #125
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The biggest advantage the Rangers have over the Islanders is that the Rangers are not the Islanders.
LMFAO, well done sir well done

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