Unless if Quebec/Colorado pick up a big time goaltender, they don't win the cup. Lindros would probably put up similar point totals as he did in Philly, but as others have said, those early 90's Nordiques teams were horrible defensively and had poor goaltending, and without the Lindros trade in 1992, the Nords would probably have been a borderline playoff team (only because the Adams had an expansion Senators and very bad Whalers team in the division), and blown out in the first round.
If the team starts having some playoff success in 93-94, winning a couple of rounds, I think they stay in Quebec for a couple more seasons, however, I don't see them hanging on to their young, highly talented players when teams like the Rangers are willing to throw around $17 million for Sakic. Its hard to say though, prehaps having a huge star like Lindros on the team helps with a new arena being built? If not, they leave Quebec by 1999 at the very latest.
Further potential repercussions that can be thrown into the mix
Nordiques manage to sign not only Valery Kamensky, but also his former CSKA linemates Slava Bykov and Andrei Khomutov in 1991. Sakic, Sundin, Lindros, Bykov, incredible center depth. Lindros doesn't want to play in Québec? Too bad, but with Sakic, Sundin, Bykov the Nordiques are comfortable enough to trade away Lindros in a blockbuster move to acquire defense/goaltending.
Another effect (not as speculative): Before the Red Wings' Russian Five there could have been the Nordiques' Russian Five: Kamensky - Bykov - Khomutov, Gusarov - Tatarinov.
If my timeline is correct I believe Eric makes it to Colorado and spends most of his career there. Quebec had to move regardless of him playing there or not. I think Colorado would have been MORE dominant with a 1-2 punch of Sakic-Lindros than Sakic-Forsberg Plus
At his absolute peak, Lindros was probably a more dominant player than Sakic, and a lot of people think that Sundin would have absolutely torn it up if he wasn't responsible for being a one-man show in Toronto.
Sure, you can disagree with that scenario, and no one's arguing that Lindros-Sundin is a better collection of players, but it's certainly a lot more reasonable than your snarky, useless one-line response.
Assuming they can still get Roy, the Av's would still win at least one cup IMO, but it would be a different makeup. One issue is whether they can still get Roy. The center piece of the deal from a Habs standpoint was Thibault, one of the best prospect goalies of the time, but the pick Quebec used to draft Thibault was acquired in the Lindros trade. Does Quebec have the package that's attractive to the Habs when Roy got dealt, or do the Habs instead go with the rumored Detroit package? Without Thibault, do the Habs instead go for Fiset, but insist on an upgrade on the Rucinski/Kovalenko aspect of the deal, weakening the Av's future top 2 lines? Who knows? Houle was an idiot, so for all be know, he takes Fiset, Kovalenko and Rucinski.
that's a great point, look at all the deadline deals they made (or close to the deadline): Fleury & Selanne come to mind instantly, but im sure there were a few more
Selanne was a free agent signing and Fleury was a total bust in Denver.
At his absolute peak, Lindros was probably a more dominant player than Sakic, and a lot of people think that Sundin would have absolutely torn it up if he wasn't responsible for being a one-man show in Toronto.
If Sundin played wing with a guy like Forsberg or Lindros, I think he would have been a perennial 40+ goal guy. Over the course of his career his linemates weren't as bad as some people say (never as bad as what Kessel played with last year), but he rarely played with guys who could create their own play. Roberts was a beauty, guys like Berezin, Hoglund, Nolan, and Tucker had their moments, etc. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Sundin put up back-to-back top-10 goal finishes in the two seasons he played with Mogilny.
Selanne was a free agent signing and Fleury was a total bust in Denver.
Fleury had 42 points in 33 combined regular season and playoff games with Colorado. I don't remember if he had any off-ice issues in Colorado, but they definitely got their moneys worth out of him for the brief time he was there.
Selanne was a total bust though, if that's what you meant.
Fleury had 42 points in 33 combined regular season and playoff games with Colorado. I don't remember if he had any off-ice issues in Colorado, but they definitely got their moneys worth out of him for the brief time he was there.
He was horrible in both the second and the third round of the playoffs (six points in 12 games and was -4). He also went out and got drunk the night before one of the Conference Finals against Dallas, where he was scratched with "the flu". That was the beginning of the end for Theo Fleury.
That's an interesting one there, and less convoluted than the Lindros scenario. Obviously Claude Lemieux played a part in Colorado's cup win in 1996. But imagine if they kept Sundin instead (keeping in mind that Sundin played RW very successfully early in his career)? Sundin and Forsberg together would have been terrifying stuff.
Lefevre came in that deal too. Lemeuix was traded for rolston who was the principal in the Bourque deal.
Maybe, but by the same token, the Rucinski/Kovalenko aspect of the trade would require an upgrade if that's the case, so chances are it's a different Av's team going forward. Or Houle just goes for a package offered by Detroit and instead insists on their young goalie, Osgood. My understanding is that Houle had no interest in Fiset. But then again, he was an idiot, so who knows what he ends up taking.
If lindros hasn't gone to Philly he would have had a much longer career. I can't see him continually being rushed back from serious injury like he was by the Flyers.
also, not playing Stevens so much would have helped.
Early October 1995, Lacroix wanted 30 year old Roy; Serge Savard wanted 23 year old Owen Nolan. Roy was surprisingly on the outs in Montreal, wrongfully scapegoated for the poor trades of Savard. Lacroix actually phoned Savard five minutes after Savard had been fired and said yes. Savard literally took the call while he was packing up his things in his office. Montreal had already traded for Recchi, Turgeon and Malakhov and Savard thought they were two players away, Nolan being one of them. Savard also wanted a goalie to fill in until Theodore was ready (he wanted Fiset). Avs still get Keane because of the controversy in Montreal that led to his trade.
But if the Avs don't get the depth from the Lindros trade, they aren't just a goalie away, so the Roy trade might not make sense for them. They might have signed him FA if Montreal trades him elsewhere and he then wants to join Lacroix or if Montreal had gone downhill which seems likely after the slew of ridiculous trades by Savard (as has been said here). If the Avs don't do the Nolan-Roy thing, they have to trade someone for depth and it's probably Nolan or Sundin as we know. Since they are full up at center, you have to think Sundin goes and they hang onto Nolan. Maybe Sundin goes to Montreal for Roy? Makes more sense in this scenario. But Montreal's hand was forced, so maybe we see the same deal (Rucinsky/Kovalenko/and probably Fiset for Roy/Keane).
Down the road, they then would have matched Sakic's offer sheet and traded Sundin for some defense/depth in '97. The Clark trade probably doesn't happen because of the desperate need for D, but Clark-Lindros-Nolan would have done serious damage.
If Lindros plays in the West in the 90's, would he have had concussion problems like he did? I don't think so. Especially with Nolan riding shotgun.
No Ricci from the Flyer trade, means they don't get Tanguay. No Krupp either.
Not a bad team, but Detroit wins the Cup 96, 97-over the Rangers instead of the Flyers? (or does a Forsberg-led Flyers win the Cup?), and 98 unless the Avs add something via UFA (which they don't, cuz they had cash problems).
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Another intriguing idea, maybe the Avs trade Lindros like the Nords did, for a big return, and hang onto Sundin. If so, most likely in 1997 with Joe Thornton coming the other way in a package. Because:
"In Behind The Moves, Neil Smith said “When we lost Messier [to Vancouver as a free agent], [my boss] Dave [Checketts] comes in and says to me, ‘We should do an offer sheet on Joe Sakic.’… He said, ‘I’m on the board of governors and the Nuggets and Avalanche are broke and [their parent company CEO] Charlie [Lyons] says they are out of money. We’ll front-load [the offer] and they can’t match because they can’t come up with the cash.’"
But hindsight has shown they did get the cash together.
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Or, they hang onto Lindros, Sundin and Nolan and take the five picks from the Rangers and get Roy (or Belfour) UFA. That puts them in position to contend earliest by 2000. If they have Roy, they still get Bourque.
Giving them the benefit of the doubt with the Ranger first rounders, that means they could have gotten Morrow, and they could have taken Tanguay anyway (just a bit higher):
Lindros wins at least one Cup. Probably more. He also is a lock for the HHOF. Maybe he's in there by now instead of being on the fence and having this polarizing way about him that keeps him out. Without dodging Quebec I get the feeling that no one remembers him as a whiny teenager who didn't want to play hockey in Sault Ste. Marie when he was 16. If he becomes a champion in Quebec he is probably much more loved in Canada than today.
Think about it this way, a championship has a way of making people forgive you. Eli Manning pretty much pulled the same thing Lindros did in 2003 not wanting to play for the Chargers. Two Super Bowls later he is a lock for the Hall of Fame in Canton and he is only half way through his career.
Lindros would have gotten that same love regardless of his personality. You could always say he was a winner. But he can't now and instead went to the mess that was Philly and everyone knows Philly usually finds a way to talk themselves OUT of a championship.
Say what you want, but a Sakic-Lindros-Sundin combo is deadly. That is pretty much unstoppable. All three of them aren't going to be in a slump at the same time and if they are you just mix up the lines because you have that luxury.
Lindros wins at least one Cup. Probably more. He also is a lock for the HHOF. Maybe he's in there by now instead of being on the fence and having this polarizing way about him that keeps him out. Without dodging Quebec I get the feeling that no one remembers him as a whiny teenager who didn't want to play hockey in Sault Ste. Marie when he was 16. If he becomes a champion in Quebec he is probably much more loved in Canada than today.
Think about it this way, a championship has a way of making people forgive you. Eli Manning pretty much pulled the same thing Lindros did in 2003 not wanting to play for the Chargers. Two Super Bowls later he is a lock for the Hall of Fame in Canton and he is only half way through his career.
Lindros would have gotten that same love regardless of his personality. You could always say he was a winner. But he can't now and instead went to the mess that was Philly and everyone knows Philly usually finds a way to talk themselves OUT of a championship.
Say what you want, but a Sakic-Lindros-Sundin combo is deadly. That is pretty much unstoppable. All three of them aren't going to be in a slump at the same time and if they are you just mix up the lines because you have that luxury.
Avs wouldn't have had the cash to keep them together early on. And Sundin was not the player he became later. Someone had to go. Also, they needed D.
Avs wouldn't have had the cash to keep them together early on. And Sundin was not the player he became later. Someone had to go. Also, they needed D.
They could have won a Cup early on like 1994 or so. Sakic was pretty good at that time and Lindros was a year away from a Hart Trophy. Throw in Nolan, Sundin (or whatever you get from him in a trade) and Kamensky and you've got a legitimate contender. Maybe they get a defenseman with a trade. Either way, winning the Cup brings in a lot more money than you would normally get.
They could have won a Cup early on like 1994 or so. Sakic was pretty good at that time and Lindros was a year away from a Hart Trophy. Throw in Nolan, Sundin (or whatever you get from him in a trade) and Kamensky and you've got a legitimate contender. Maybe they get a defenseman with a trade. Either way, winning the Cup brings in a lot more money than you would normally get.
I agree. Watching the 1991 Juniors on TSN recently reminded me what a huge deal the big E was. Really he was amazing. All those years dominating the smaller kids didn't prepare him for the perils of Scott Stevens in the NHL.
If someone like Sakic was his teammate who knows if that might have knocked some sense into him. He was always going full throttle instead of using his head like Sakic did. Also would have got him out of the hard hitting Atlantic.
Lindros wins at least one Cup. Probably more. He also is a lock for the HHOF. Maybe he's in there by now instead of being on the fence and having this polarizing way about him that keeps him out. Without dodging Quebec I get the feeling that no one remembers him as a whiny teenager who didn't want to play hockey in Sault Ste. Marie when he was 16. If he becomes a champion in Quebec he is probably much more loved in Canada than today.
Think about it this way, a championship has a way of making people forgive you. Eli Manning pretty much pulled the same thing Lindros did in 2003 not wanting to play for the Chargers. Two Super Bowls later he is a lock for the Hall of Fame in Canton and he is only half way through his career.
Lindros would have gotten that same love regardless of his personality. You could always say he was a winner. But he can't now and instead went to the mess that was Philly and everyone knows Philly usually finds a way to talk themselves OUT of a championship.
Say what you want, but a Sakic-Lindros-Sundin combo is deadly. That is pretty much unstoppable. All three of them aren't going to be in a slump at the same time and if they are you just mix up the lines because you have that luxury.
^^^^ agree with that.
Lindros was such a talent, but imo, he thought he was above the game, better than everyone else so he didn't have to follow the accepted rules (ways of doing things). He cut his own throat.
And speaking of Manning, when Peyton Manning went to the Colts as the #1 pick, the 2nd pick Ryan Leaf went to SD, and he thought he was above the game. He mocked and alienated teammates and he was out of football in a few years - while Payton Manning is still going. Last I heard Leaf had been in and out of jail and coaching hs football in Montana.
