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MLD 2011 Draft Thread II

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Old
08-01-2011, 01:39 PM
  #351
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Here are the numbers and years I have.
1913 - 5th (22nd)
1915 - 11th (28th)
1916 - 3rd (4th)
1917 - 10th (24th)
1919 - 8th (13th)
1920 - 8th (18th)
Actually, now that I look at it, I seemed to have missed him in 1918..... he was 5th in PCHA goals, which ws good for 9th in consolidation.

1913 - 5th (22nd)
1915 - 11th (28th)
1916 - 3rd (4th)
1917 - 10th (24th)
1918 - 5th (9th)
1919 - 8th (13th)
1920 - 8th (18th)

1916 and 1918 are seriously good seasons. 1919 and 1920 are good and 1913, 1915, and 1917 are decent. That's a pretty damn good resume....

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Old
08-01-2011, 01:40 PM
  #352
BenchBrawl
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The Montreal Bad Habits are proud to select:

Hec Fowler G

&

Mike Knuble F

I have serious doubt about my 4th line and what I want to do with it , the only thing I'm sure is that Langkow is gonna center it.

I have Stan Jonathan , Mike Knuble & Ian Laperriere ( or even Gionta & Bob Kelly ) to work with.

Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You suck Good pick.

The good old original "wood-chopper". Stay out of that man's crease!
I was sold , I like to have a couple of savage on my hockey team.This is no soccer we're playing.


Last edited by seventieslord: 08-01-2011 at 01:55 PM.
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Old
08-01-2011, 01:48 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
Hec Fowler G
You suck Good pick.

The good old original "wood-chopper". Stay out of that man's crease!

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Old
08-01-2011, 02:14 PM
  #354
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eh, he was our top goalie because we were wrongly seduced by his 4th and 5th place finishes in Hart voting. The more I looked at him, the more they looked like "poor goalie has to carry a terrible team" votes.

I found a lot of contemporary articles from the day about how Mowers was already considered one of the all-time great goalies. Nothing like that about Robertson. When Robertson was a second team All Star in 1939, it was over absolutely terrible competition. (The late 30s was hockey's original dark age of goaltending).

He's a very worthy backup, not an "excellent" one in my opinion.

Edit: Also, the reason they had short careers is totally different and really important, IMO. Mowers left to serve in WW2 at the peak of his game, just having been a First Team All Star (over fantastic competition). After missing 3 full years, he came back to the league and couldn't beat out Harry Lumley to get the starting role back. Robertson had those 2 great seasons, then quickly played his way out of the league with poor play (to be fair, his team was so bad, who knows if any goalie could have played well on it).
Whoa there, let's not start acting like there's a big difference here all of a sudden!

First off, about the Hart votes, you did originally think the same thing about Roy Worters and I think that's been debunked by now.

Yes, competition among goalies was weaker when Robertson played. Competition in general, on the other hand, was weaker when Mowers played. I wouldn't say it fully offsets it, but it partially does.

As for their short careers - 1) it's no shame to be worse than Lumley, but couldn't he have found another way back into the league if he was still a top-6 guy? If he wasn't there's not really much shame in that, either, but are you trying to say he was still a worthy NHLer that guy nudged out by a better player? 2) How do you know Robertson played poorly?

I would only say 10 MLD goalies are definitely better (Paton, Nicholson, McLean, Bouchard, Burke, Mowers, Lindbergh, Holmqvist, Winkler, Beaupre), then I'd say five at best are debatable (Roloson, Johnston, Hrudey, Irbe, Cechmanek) so he might be a bargain basement starter.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Actually, now that I look at it, I seemed to have missed him in 1918..... he was 5th in PCHA goals, which ws good for 9th in consolidation.

1913 - 5th (22nd)
1915 - 11th (28th)
1916 - 3rd (4th)
1917 - 10th (24th)
1918 - 5th (9th)
1919 - 8th (13th)
1920 - 8th (18th)

1916 and 1918 are seriously good seasons. 1919 and 1920 are good and 1913, 1915, and 1917 are decent. That's a pretty damn good resume....
1913: I have him 6th. There's also a massive gap between Dunderdale (24 goals) and the rest of the top-10 (10-14 goals)
1915: agree
1916: agree, and yes, this is a VERY fine season. 21 goals, just 2 behind Morris and 1 behind Cyclone.
1917: agree, but there were 4 guys with over 2X as many goals. This year's not that impressive.
1918: agree. Decent year here. Taylor eclipsed everyone (32), but Tobin's 14 goals look good next to Morris and Roberts' 20.
1919: agree, but not that impressive. three guys have over double his 10 goals, then Foyston with 15, then he's in a pack of 7 guys with 8-11 goals.
1920: agree, but also similar to the year before. Dunderdale and Foyston led with 26, then Roberts, Skinner and Harris form another tier, then there's Tobin in a group of 5 guys with 9-11 goals.

The overall placements you came up with make sense; it's just like any year back then where a ranking that looks high might not be that impressive when scrutinized from a percentage standpoint. Still, with percentages of 88, 65, 46, 45, 43 in his five best years (done using the assist methodology I used last ATD when analyzing Oatman, which likely hurts Tobin) I do like his offensive resume compared with most 3rd and 4th-liners here, especially because he was on D 22% of the time.
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
The Montreal Bad Habits are proud to select:

Hec Fowler G

&

Mike Knuble F

I have serious doubt about my 4th line and what I want to do with it , the only thing I'm sure is that Langkow is gonna center it.

I have Stan Jonathan , Mike Knuble & Ian Laperriere ( or even Gionta & Bob Kelly ) to work with.

Any thoughts?

I was sold , I like to have a couple of savage on my hockey team.This is no soccer we're playing.
I think Knuble has made a hefty living being the big "space creator", "net presence", and/or "glue guy" for some star players in his career. Preferably, that's what he should be doing, that's what I'd draft him for. I think he has a 4th line style, but is that what he's made to do? He's just the perfect example of a "complementary scoring line player", to me.

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Old
08-01-2011, 02:17 PM
  #355
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I might use him with Gee and Gionta and put Kelly on the 4th instead of Stan Jonathan.

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Old
08-01-2011, 02:43 PM
  #356
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Whoa there, let's not start acting like there's a big difference here all of a sudden!

First off, about the Hart votes, you did originally think the same thing about Roy Worters and I think that's been debunked by now.
It was debunked because we discovered that Worters was regularly voted the 1st Team All Star in the unofficial GM polls of the late 20s (over Hainsworth!). We already have the All-Star voting for Robertson and it isn't as impressive.

Maybe all the good articles about Robertson are behind paywalls, or maybe I wasn't searching for the right terms, but I found literally nothing on him when people were discussing the great goalies of the day. Believe me, I spent a long time searching for information on him when we were considering him as a starter. I just couldn't find much.

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Yes, competition among goalies was weaker when Robertson played. Competition in general, on the other hand, was weaker when Mowers played. I wouldn't say it fully offsets it, but it partially does.
I have no idea how the competition is offset. The late 30s was a sort of dark age for goaltending that we wouldn't see again until the 1980s.

Mowers competed against prime Brimsek and Broda his entire (short) career. Brimsek and Broda left to fight the war at the exact same time as Mowers (and they returned earlier than him). Unless you want to say that all the 1940s goalies are overrated, I don't see how you can say that the fact that a handful of skaters had already left to fight the war by the time Mowers was in the league is a factor in the competition he faced.

Quote:
As for their short careers - 1) it's no shame to be worse than Lumley, but couldn't he have found another way back into the league if he was still a top-6 guy? If he wasn't there's not really much shame in that, either, but are you trying to say he was still a worthy NHLer that guy nudged out by a better player? 2) How do you know Robertson played poorly?
1) Who knows? From the articles I read, after Mowers failed to beat out Lumley for the job, he basically gave up hockey. Only played 2 games in the minors before retiring, according to hockeydb. IMO, Mowers deserves a bit of "what if" credit for basically having his career ended by WW2. Obviously, you can't assume that he would have been a star the whole time, but it's not a guy who only had a short career because he wasn't good enough.

2 I guess it wasn't necessarily poor play, but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsofHockeyh
But in spite of his success, Roberston was traded to the New York Americans shortly after the confetti from the victory parade had been swept up. The Amerks were a club that had their bright moments, but couldn't seem to get on track to win a championship. During his four seasons with the club, the Americans' fortunes only seemed to sag with time. By 1940-41, Robertson finished the season with a 6-22-8 record.

In 1941-42, his club became known as the Brooklyn Americans, but a change in name could do little to revive Robertson's fading career. He appeared in only 12 games before heading to the minors with the Springfield Indians where he retired at the close of the campaign.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelletier
However Robertson's fine play could only carry the financially troubled Americans so far. The team in front of him was one of the weakest in the league, and by 1940 it really showed in the standings. The team went 15-29-4 and missed the playoffs. That was the beginning of the end for Robertson.

The Americans had a hot young prospect waiting for a chance to play in the net. That prospect was future Hall of Famer Chuck Rayner.

Rayner and Robertson battled it out for the starting job for the Americans, with Robertson playing 36 of 48 games in 1940-41. Rayner played the remaining 12 games but also was fine tuning his game in the minor leagues. By 1941-42, the tables were turned. Rayner played in 36 games while Robertson played in just 12, and played most of the season in the minor leagues.

The Americans folded in the summer of 1942. Robertson retired while Rayner would play with the cross town rivals Rangers after a 3 year stint in the military.
My take on the era is that it was generally pretty tough for an entrenched starter to lose his job.

Mowers never lost his job by play, he lost it to the war, and by the time he returned, Lumley was the entrenched starter and Mowers was the challenger.

Whereas Robertson lost his starting job due to his play. Granted, it was Rayner he lost it to, but still.

Nothing here says that Robertson was a bad pick by the way, just that the more I researched him, the less impressed I was.

Quote:
I would only say 10 MLD goalies are definitely better (Paton, Nicholson, McLean, Bouchard, Burke, Mowers, Lindbergh, Holmqvist, Winkler, Beaupre), then I'd say five at best are debatable (Roloson, Johnston, Hrudey, Irbe, Cechmanek) so he might be a bargain basement starter.
Without checking to see if you left anyone out, I more or less agree with your list, though I apparently like Hrudey more than you do.

Edit: Actually forgot Theodore. I know vecens liked Robertson, but I had a hard time putting him over Theodore to be honest.

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Old
08-01-2011, 02:47 PM
  #357
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1913: I have him 6th. There's also a massive gap between Dunderdale (24 goals) and the rest of the top-10 (10-14 goals)
You're right. I simply mis-counted when looking at my charts. That was a dominant season for Dunderdale.

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Old
08-01-2011, 03:07 PM
  #358
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Assuming Chaos and Billy are skipped, we select Doug Lidster, D and Mikko Koivu, C

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Old
08-01-2011, 03:08 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Without checking to see if you left anyone out, I more or less agree with your list, though I apparently like Hrudey more than you do.
I'm glad somebody said that befoe me.

It's tough to compare goalies from different eras, but I'm surprised to see those modern goalies ahead of him. Of the modern goalies, he has the best Vezina voting record, and he's got by far the best save percentages. He also has one of the better play-off records.


I'd take him ahead of Beaupre and Bouchard easily. Lindbergh's Vezina doesn't outweigh Hrudey's whole career. McLean's one great play-off run was pretty much Conn Smythe worthy, but the rest of his career just doesn't compare.

Sean Burke's NHL record doesn't compare to Hrudey, but that ignore's his extensive international resume. I'd still take Hrudey, but this one is close.

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Old
08-01-2011, 03:25 PM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I'm glad somebody said that befoe me.

It's tough to compare goalies from different eras, but I'm surprised to see those modern goalies ahead of him. Of the modern goalies, he has the best Vezina voting record, and he's got by far the best save percentages. He also has one of the better play-off records.


I'd take him ahead of Beaupre and Bouchard easily. Lindbergh's Vezina doesn't outweigh Hrudey's whole career. McLean's one great play-off run was pretty much Conn Smythe worthy, but the rest of his career just doesn't compare.

Sean Burke's NHL record doesn't compare to Hrudey, but that ignore's his extensive international resume. I'd still take Hrudey, but this one is close.
Hrudey's Vezina record is... interesting. This is what I have:

Vezina finishes = 3rd, 4th, 6th,
also 7th, 11th, 11th, 11th - all with 1 vote

I've said before that the Vezina is the only trophy where I actually count finishes with a single vote because I value the opinion of GMs. But... Hrudey might make me change that. Literally 4 years in a row, he got a single vote for the Vezina - a second place vote when he "finished 7th" and a single third place vote for those "11th place finishes." Seems a single GM (probably his own) remained enamored by Hrudey long after he was worthy of getting consideration.

That said, even if you ignore the seasons where he has a single vote, he still has one of the better records in this.

Going into the draft, Sean Burke was our top choice among post-expansion goalies and Hrudey was our second choice. I think we may have underestimated Kirk McLean, however. You are right though that McLean really did nothing outside of a few year window.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-01-2011 at 03:30 PM.
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Old
08-01-2011, 03:27 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Assuming Chaos and Billy are skipped, we select Doug Lidster, D and Mikko Koivu, C
Koivu is a great pick. He's won a medal in every single tournament he played in. Crazy.

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Old
08-01-2011, 03:41 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Be careful with Hrudey's Vezina record. This is what I have:

Vezina finishes = 3rd, 4th, 6th,
also 7th, 11th, 11th, 11th - all with 1 vote

I've said before that the Vezina is the only trophy where I actually count finishes with a single vote because I value the opinion of GMs. But... Hrudey might make me change that. Literally 4 years in a row, he got a single vote for the Vezina - a second place vote when he "finished 7th" and a single third place vote for those "11th place finishes." Seems a single GM (probably his own) remained enamored by Hrudey long after he was worthy of getting consideration.
That's why I said he had the best, but not the best by far. The votes aren't as suspect as you seem to think though, as Hrudey was among the leaders in save percentage all the way through 1995. 1987 he received 1 vote, but he was named to Team Canada's roster at the Canada Cup, so he was definately a great goalie that year. 1989 he received 1 vote, but he also received multiple All-Stat votes, so he that season was pretty good regardless. 1992 and 1995 he received 1 vote, but those are two seasons that he was among the save percentage leaders, so there seems to be justification there.

Here are the other guys' Vezina votes:
Beaupre - 5th and 6th
Bouchard - 4th and 5th
Burke - 3rd, 6th, 8th
McLean - 2nd, 3rd

Quote:
That said, even if you ignore the seasons where he has a single vote, he still has one of the better records in this.
As shown above.

Quote:
Going into the draft, Sean Burke was our top choice among post-expansion goalies and Hrudey was our second choice. I think we may have underestimated Kirk McLean, however. You are right though that McLean really did nothing outside of a few year window.
The thing that scared me about Burke was his play-off record. Not only does he have a weak record, but his save percentage goes down quite a bit.

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Old
08-01-2011, 03:54 PM
  #363
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post

Here are the other guys' Vezina votes:
Beaupre - 5th and 6th
Bouchard - 4th and 5th
Burke - 3rd, 6th, 8th
McLean - 2nd, 3rd
Beaupre finished 4th in AS voting before the Vezina was voted on, so I'd say his "true" record is 4, 5, 6

Wow, just noticed that Bouchard finished 4th, 5th, 6th 7th, 8th in AS voting before the Vezina was voted on.

That would make Bouchard's "true record" 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th. That's.... pretty outstanding even if you discount the 7th and 8th place finishes as only a handful of votes in the watered down 70s.

I was aware of Beaupre's finish but for some reason completely overlooked Bouchard.

The only reason I can think of that I overlooked Bouchard was because I drafted him before. His playoff record (13-30 with high GAA and poor save % in the last 3 seasons when it was actually recorded) is quite terrible, though in his defense, those weren't exactly strong teams he brought there. But looking at this, I think Bouchard is quite clearly the best regular season goalie in this draft.

Quote:
The thing that scared me about Burke was his play-off record. Not only does he have a weak record, but his save percentage goes down quite a bit.
As a Devils fan, I can't help but think of Burke as a great playoff goalie because of 1988, but I guess that was just one good run as a rookie.

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Old
08-01-2011, 04:04 PM
  #364
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Not before the injury, he wasn't.
As much as I'd like to nitpick back and forth, the point is the whole team fell back, Leeman got hurt in addition, their #1 center and #1 offensive defenseman got traded during the season.

It was a comedy of errors.

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30-goal guy? Sure. They were plentiful at the time. He was a 30-goal guy before the injury as well. But I thought we were talking about his 50-goal season being a fluke, which it still seems it was. His 1989/90 season certainly has one hallmark of a fluke year: a scoring percentage significantly higher than his career mark.
He scored at a 40 goal pace the year before, and as I said, he had really just hit his stride as a forward when the shoulder got blown out and he was never able to reach that level again. Based on going 30, 40, 50 goal pace.. I don't think it was a fluke. He was just improving and then got cut down.

But you stick with your 19 game sample if you like, you're welcome to your opinion.

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Old
08-01-2011, 04:07 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Bouchard is quite clearly the best regular season goalie in this draft.

.
Thanks for the praise of Bouchard. Going into this he was my top choice as a #1 goalie. I think I've built a good enough team for him to win on but we'll see.

Oh and to the pm issue. Don't know if Reen is having the same problems I am but I can't send a pm at all the past week.

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08-01-2011, 04:09 PM
  #366
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It was debunked because we discovered that Worters was regularly voted the 1st Team All Star in the unofficial GM polls of the late 20s (over Hainsworth!). We already have the All-Star voting for Robertson and it isn't as impressive.
2nd and a close(r) 3rd is pretty close to 1st and a 3rd. competition, I know... Hey, I never said he was better to Mowers, just comparable.

Quote:
I have no idea how the competition is offset. The late 30s was a sort of dark age for goaltending that we wouldn't see again until the 1980s.

Mowers competed against prime Brimsek and Broda his entire (short) career. Brimsek and Broda left to fight the war at the exact same time as Mowers (and they returned earlier than him). Unless you want to say that all the 1940s goalies are overrated, I don't see how you can say that the fact that a handful of skaters had already left to fight the war by the time Mowers was in the league is a factor in the competition he faced.
I'm speaking of the strength of the league in general.

Obviously the major dropoff happened in the 1944 season but the impression I get is that it was declining from about 1930 until the war. so Mowers faced an overall lesser quality of league. Like I said, it wouldn't offset the goaltending difference, which is greater.

Quote:
2 I guess it wasn't necessarily poor play, but:

My take on the era is that it was generally pretty tough for an entrenched starter to lose his job.

Mowers never lost his job by play, he lost it to the war, and by the time he returned, Lumley was the entrenched starter and Mowers was the challenger.

Whereas Robertson lost his starting job due to his play. Granted, it was Rayner he lost it to, but still.

Nothing here says that Robertson was a bad pick by the way, just that the more I researched him, the less impressed I was.
Fair enough, we will see what I can gather. By the way, it looks pretty clear Pelletier is just parroting LOH in this case

Quote:
Without checking to see if you left anyone out, I more or less agree with your list, though I apparently like Hrudey more than you do.

Edit: Actually forgot Theodore. I know vecens liked Robertson, but I had a hard time putting him over Theodore to be honest.
Yeah, i guess Theo belongs in that debatable pile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I'm glad somebody said that befoe me.

It's tough to compare goalies from different eras, but I'm surprised to see those modern goalies ahead of him. Of the modern goalies, he has the best Vezina voting record, and he's got by far the best save percentages. He also has one of the better play-off records.

I'd take him ahead of Beaupre and Bouchard easily. Lindbergh's Vezina doesn't outweigh Hrudey's whole career. McLean's one great play-off run was pretty much Conn Smythe worthy, but the rest of his career just doesn't compare.

Sean Burke's NHL record doesn't compare to Hrudey, but that ignore's his extensive international resume. I'd still take Hrudey, but this one is close.
And I thought I was higher on Hrudey than most guys! I just spent a day a few weeks back, defending Hrudey (to a kings fan!)

Beaupre and Bouchard have pretty impressive Vezina/AS records, particularly Bouchard. Beaupre is in Hrudey's range here, but Bouchard eclipses them both:

Beaupre: 4, 5, 6
Hrudey: 3, 4, 5
Bouchard: 4, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8

I realize it doesn't tell us much because these were all years without a ton of voting points and it really just reflects the opinions of a few GMs/writers, but it's something.

Bouchard actually picked up a 7th in Hart voting too.

sv% placements (might contradict HR in a few cases thanks to a different minutes cutoff):

Beaupre: 5, 7, 7, 8, 10
Bouchard: 3, 3, 4, 7, 8, 8
Hrudey: 2, 4, 4, 7, 8, 8

career adjusted sv%:

Beaupre: averaged 1.8 points above average
Bouchard: averaged +6.7
Hrudey: averaged +5.9

career adjusted playoff sv%:

Beaupre: averaged 7.7 points below average
Bouchard: -10.4
Hrudey: -2.5

Based on these elementary factors it's really tough to conclude anything on Beaupre/Hrudey, but Bouchard was clearly better IMO.

You could be right on McLean. His 2nd AST and cup final help his resume, but he averaged below the league sv% throughout his career (+6.9 in the playoffs though)

Lindbergh, on the other hand, averaged 12 points above average in the regular season and 11 above in the playoffs in his short career. Whether that's enough to prove he was better is up to you.

Burke, thanks to longevity, should be considered ahead though. He averaged 3.4 points above average (and -5.2 in the playoffs) despite playing until age 40. His two huge seasons where he got Vezina and Hart consideration are an amazing peak, as well.

I know this is rough and dirty but here's an interesting list: career adj sv% spread, regular season (X2) and playoffs, sum:

Lindbergh: +35.0
Hrudey: +9.3
Bouchard: +3.0
Burke: +1.2
McLean: -3.1
Beaupre: -4.1

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Old
08-01-2011, 04:20 PM
  #367
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
sv% placements (might contradict HR in a few cases thanks to a different minutes cutoff):

Beaupre: 5, 7, 7, 8, 10
Bouchard: 3, 3, 4, 7, 8, 8
Hrudey: 2, 4, 4, 7, 8, 8
Where did you get those? According to HR, Beaupre only has a 5th and 8th. Bouchad has no top-10s.

Hrudey has a 2nd, 5th, 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th

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08-01-2011, 04:23 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Where did you get those? According to HR, Beaupre only has a 5th and 8th. Bouchad has no top-10s.

Hrudey has a 2nd, 5th, 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th
according to reconstruction projects, Bouchard was 3rd, 7th, 10th, 10th.

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08-01-2011, 04:37 PM
  #369
chaosrevolver
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Okay four picks...let's start with my backup goaltender. I need an active player for my squad, and lets hope he likes the weather in Belleville..as we will select:

G - Ilya Bryzgalov

After that..we will look to the forward position and select a physical forward who is known as a power forward with good speed and strength..

RW - Erik Cole

Then I will go to the other wing to get an underrated two-way winger for one of my spares..he's a current stud for the Dallas Stars..

LW - Loui Eriksson

Finally, I will take a look towards another right winger who was considered a very strong defensive forward, great skater and smart checker..some may find this too early, but I think he deserves a spot on my fourth line..or at the very least a spare..

RW - George Ferguson

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08-01-2011, 04:43 PM
  #370
TheDevilMadeMe
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I thought Brzygalov was probably the next best of the still-active goalies after Theodore.

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08-01-2011, 04:54 PM
  #371
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Where did you get those? According to HR, Beaupre only has a 5th and 8th. Bouchad has no top-10s.

Hrudey has a 2nd, 5th, 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
according to reconstruction projects, Bouchard was 3rd, 7th, 10th, 10th.
I'm not surprised we have slightly different results here, because as I said, I was using a different minutes cutoff from hockey-reference. But strangely I made Hrudey look better instead of worse, even though my cutoff would include more goalies than HR.

here's what I have:

Beaupre: 5 (1986), 7 (1981), 7 (1991), 8 (1982), 10 (1983)
Bouchard: 3 (1976), 3 (1974), 4 (1975), 7 (1980), 8 (1973), 8 (1981)
Hrudey: 2 (1986), 4 (1988), 4 (1991), 7 (1985), 8 (1992), 8 (1995)

the sheet I was using may also have gotten confused by ties, or used the next decimal placement. that can probably explain any differential on Hrudey here. But on Bouchard, you're definitely getting some bad intel.

In any case, Bouchard and Hrudey have practically equal peak sv% rankings. Bouchard was just a little better in his non-peak years, hence the better career rating.

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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
Okay four picks...let's start with my backup goaltender. I need an active player for my squad, and lets hope he likes the weather in Belleville..as we will select:

G - Ilya Bryzgalov

After that..we will look to the forward position and select a physical forward who is known as a power forward with good speed and strength..

RW - Erik Cole

Then I will go to the other wing to get an underrated two-way winger for one of my spares..he's a current stud for the Dallas Stars..

LW - Loui Eriksson

Finally, I will take a look towards another right winger who was considered a very strong defensive forward, great skater and smart checker..some may find this too early, but I think he deserves a spot on my fourth line..or at the very least a spare..

RW - George Ferguson
Ferguson is really underrated! Scored 49+ points 4 times and was a good defensive forward who could play all forward positions.

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08-01-2011, 04:56 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought Brzygalov was probably the next best of the still-active goalies after Theodore.
Probably, hey? I don't have a single active goalie in my personal "top-20 goalies remaining"!

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08-01-2011, 04:59 PM
  #373
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Probably, hey? I don't have a single active goalie in my personal "top-20 goalies remaining"!
Heh, good point. I guess I should have said that I think Brzygalov is just slightly worse than Theodore in an all-time sense. I like his selection at lot more this year than I did last year, as Ilya has another very good season under his belt.

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08-01-2011, 05:00 PM
  #374
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LW Rick Dudley



1x WHA 2nd Team All Star
9th in goals in WHA, 75-76
5x 100PIM(4 in WHA, 1 in NHL)
31st in goals in NHL(74-75)
34th in points in NHL(74-75)

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Rick Dudley played with grit, tenacity and determination and it was because of these qualities that he managed to fight his way to the NHL, both literally and figuratively.

Not being drafted after playing his final year with the St. Catharines Blackhawks of the Ontario Hockey League, Dudley set out for the minor leagues. In 1969-70, he joined the Iowa Stars. The following year he split his time between the Flint Generals of the IHL and the Cleveland Barons of the AHL. Unfortunately for Dudley, he was not drawing a whole lot of attention to his game because he managed just two goals in 31 games.

In 1971-72, Dudley clearly decided it was time to re-invent his image. He figured the best way to do that was to rough it up a bit. Dudley racked up 272 minutes in penalties in just 51 games, a stark contrast to the 32 minutes he served the previous year in Cleveland. The move seemed to work. He felt he garnered him a newfound respect and he also noticed he had more room to move around in front of the opposing team's net. That resulted in a 29-point season. But the real effects of Dudley's new nasty persona really took shape in 1972-73 when his production skyrocketed. He had 40 goals and 44 assists for 84 points while still managing to spend a somewhat toned down 159 minutes in the penalty box during his 64 games in the lineup. Dudley's play certainly caught the attention of the NHL's Buffalo Sabres, who were in need of a player like Dudley. He was called up an played six games for them, picking up one assist.

For the 1973-74 season Dudley earned himself a regular spot on the Sabres' roster, starting 67 games. He had 13 goals and 13 assists while restraining himself to just 71 minutes in the box. The following year, he was a member of the Sabres team that advanced all the way to the Stanley Cup finals. He was a major contributor to the team's offensive output that year, scoring 31 goals and 39 assists for 70 points in 78 games. He was also back to his truculent style of play, spending 116 minutes in the penalty box. Dudley, along with virtual every other Sabres player from that team, believes to this day they had the best team but were simply unable to solve Philadelphia's star goaltender, Bernie Parent.

Dudley's stock was never higher following that season, and he decided the best way to cash in from a financial point of view was to jump to the WHA, a league that was spending all kinds of money in an attempt to compete with the NHL. Dudley played the next four years with the rival league's Cincinnati Stingers. In his first two years he topped the 40-goal plateau and reached 30 in the third season.

With the impending demise of the Stingers, and the entire WHA to follow, Dudley rejoined the NHL and the Buffalo Sabres late in the 1978-79 season. He lasted about a year-and-a-half in his second go-around with the club before being sent to the Winnipeg Jets during the 1980-81 season.

For a player never drafted, Dudley carved out an extremely successful professional career for himself.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=12498

Quote:
Rick, a natural athlete who didn't start playing ice hockey until his late teen years, was a later bloomer who had to overcome a serious leg injury early in his career. The Sabres took a chance on the youngster in 1971, and let him recover and develop with their American Hockey League farm team, which was ironically located in Cincinnati. By 1972-73 Rick had not only fully recovered from the injury, but emerged as a top player in the AHL. He scored 40 goals and 84 points, and was well known for his pugnacious style of play.

Rick made the jump to the National Hockey League in 1973-74, where he was spotted through a rookie season which featured 13 goals and 26 points by the left winger. However in his second NHL season Rick emerged as a fan favorite and real key to the Sabres success. With his vigorous skating and energetic checking, it was easy to like the hard working Rick. He added a level of abrasiveness which gave the Sabres a bit of an edge which perhaps they lacked previously on their forward units. He played with great passion, and it rubbed off infectively on his teammates. Rick, a former professional lacrosse star once described as "the world's best lacrosse player, also emerged as a scoring sensation that season, picking up 31 tallies, 27 of which were at even strength. His 70 points was good enough to place him 5th on the Sabres scoring chart.

The Sabres made a great run in the 1975 playoffs, making it all the way to the Stanley Cup finals. The Sabres, one of hockey's top teams by this point, ousted the Chicago Black Hawks in the first round before pulling an upset victory over the powerful Montreal Canadiens in round 2, setting up a Stanley Cup final between the Sabres and the Philadelphia Flyers. The Sabres were impressive on home ice but couldn't win in Philadelphia, and ultimately were shutdown by the great goaltending of Bernie Parent. Dudley was only able to play in 10 of the 17 Sabres games due to injury. One has to wonder if Rick had been perfectly healthy if his exuberance perhaps could have created some timely scoring chances.

Even though the Sabres lost to the Flyers in 6 games, fans of the Sabres were excited about their team. The French Connection - a line consisting of Gilbert Perreault, Rene Robert and Richard Martin - were a top line in the league, while the checking line of Craig Ramsey, Don Luce and Danny Gare were also tremendously effective, while the defense corps was big and mean. Dudley's emergence as a new hero excited fans even more.

Fans were disappointed to learn that Rick would not return to the Sabres in 1976-77 to chase that Stanley Cup. Rick instead signed a large contract with the Cincinnati Stingers of the WHA. Rick, who was already a fan favorite from his minor league days in the city, would be a top player for the Stingers for 3 and 1/2 seasons, twice scoring 40-plus goals and 80-plus points while delivering his aggressive style of take no prisoners play. The Sabres meantime remained as a top NHL team in the regular season, but never could find the magic once again in the playoffs. Perhaps Dudley's energy and enthusiasm could have helped in that regard.

The Stingers, like the rest of the WHA, fell into financial trouble by 1978-79 and were looking to dump Rick's contract. The Sabres re-acquired Rick by agreeing to take over the remainder of the contract. Sabres fans were excited to have one of their favorites back in the lineup.

Rick, who was a health food nut and operated a natural foods store in Cincinnati, returned and played the same style that he always did, although his penalty minutes would be down significantly as he matured as a player. But his offense which had been a big part of his game in the previous half-decade had dried up at the same time. He scored just 5 goals and 11 points in 24 games upon returning to the Sabres for the remainder of 1978-79 season.
http://sabreslegends.blogspot.com/20...ck-dudley.html

Quote:
From Rick Dudley, a veteran star who enjoyed immense popularity here with the now defunct Cincinnati Swords...
http://books.google.com/books?id=Tx0...dudley&f=false

Quote:
For the sixth game, we had two regulars injured - Rick Dudley and Don Luce. Not only their scoring ability was out (Luce thirty three goals, Dudley thirty one) but they were tough checkers, none better.

People called our third line the Kamikaze kids - Lorentz, Rick Dudley, and Brian Spencer - not scoring a lot but creating mayhem with their forechecking.

The reason I don't blame Dudley is simply because he played a tremendous hockey season for me. He never played as well again. Moving to the WHA was a bad move for him. He should have stayed right here where he was and I'm certain he would have been a star in the National Hockey League.
http://books.google.com/books?id=AtD...dudley&f=false

Quote:
That support comes from Rick Dudley and his linemates, who like to dish out punishment in the comers and have their own distinctive nickname, the Kamikazes.
http://www.google.com/search?q=rick+...w=1280&bih=838

Quote:
a genuine wild man in Rick Dudley. They held up their end in fight after fight.
http://www.google.com/search?q=rick+...w=1280&bih=838


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08-01-2011, 05:18 PM
  #375
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I'll also select G Joe Daley, the winnigest goalie in WHA history.



1x WHA 1st Team All Star
1x WHA 2nd Team All Star
4x Top 9 Wins in WHA(1, 2, 5, 9)
4x Top 5 GAA in WHA(2, 2, 2, 5)
4x Top 8 Shutouts in WHA(1, 4, 4, 8)
3x WHA Champion
1st all time in Wins, WHA history

Quote:
Daley finished the 1970-71 season with a record of 12 wins, 16 losses and 8 ties, with one shutout and a 3.70 GAA. His goals against was just slightly higher than Crozier's, and his win-loss record was slightly better. Still, at the end of the season, GM Imlach felt more confident with Crozier and Dryden as his goaltending tandem. On May 25, 1971, Daley was traded to the Detroit Red Wings for defenseman Mike Robitaille and center Don Luce.

In 1972, he was selected by the Winnipeg Jets in the World Hockey Association's General Player Draft. The WHA was a new league, which sought to earn credibility by signing established NHL talent, including a few NHL superstars, to play in their league rather than remain in the NHL. Daley was one of many NHLers to join the new league in the early 1970's. The move to Winnipeg was a homecoming for Daley, who grew up in East Kildonan, Manitoba, a suburb of Winnipeg. He played 6 seasons as a member of the Jets, from their inaugural season of 1972-73 until their last season in the WHA, 1978-79. During that time, Daley became the winningest goaltender in WHA history with 167 wins. He was a part of three consecutive Avco Cup Championship teams between 1976 and 1978. He retired from professional hockey following the 1978-79 season.
http://www.sabreslegends.com/daley_j_bio.html

Quote:
Daley posted a 12-16-8 record for the Sabres, the best among the three netminders that played for them that year. Despite his success for the Buffalo, the Sabres opted to go with Roger Crozier and xxx for the next season and traded him to the Red Wings.

With the Wings Daley played the last games of his NHL career, appearing in 29 contests and posting an 11-10-5 record.

Despite playing 105 games in the NHL, Daley will be best remembered for the second stage of his career which began with the formation of the World Hockey Association in 1972. Daley was selected by his hometown club, the Winnipeg Jets and he would spend the next seven seasons; the duration of the WHA's existence, with them.

Daley served as the Jets back up in 1972-73, but he took the starting reigns the following year and enjoyed great success with them. In 1975-76 Daley won 41 games and backstopped the Jets to their first Avco Cup as league champions. By the time the WHA folded Daley was the winningest goaltender in league history and had three Avco Cup championships on his resume. When the league folded in 1979 and the Jets were absorbed into the NHL, Daley retired from hockey.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=18482


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