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Liar, Liar, Pants on fire!

View Poll Results: Who's lying
Shea Weber 35 44.30%
David Poile 16 20.25%
The Ownership Group 6 7.59%
No one, they're stuck for another reason 22 27.85%
Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-02-2011, 04:59 PM
  #26
triggrman
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Just like Weber's camp would have to prove he is worth $8m. It isn't likely to piss Poile off, but each side should understand that it's business. I really don't think Weber has thin enough skin to think "man, that Poile sure is an ******* for doing his job." Besides, I don't think it's as much about trying to defend your lowball figure as it is trying to not pay the high figure.

The choices are essentially to low ball it, or to try to be more fair so you don't step on anyone's toes but end up having to pay more. If the number we laid out was $5.5m it would still be a bit insulting considering how good Weber is. The middle ground all of the sudden becomes somewhere in the $6.75-$7.25 range rather than it being in the $6.25-$6.75 range. If Weber is getting his feelings hurt either way why not try for the smaller contract?

As Smokey mentioned earlier, one can assume the long, drawn out negotiations process is more likely to sour the two sides than the hearing is. Poile and his crew have already been trying to plead their case, just as Weber, I'm sure, has hinted that he isn't convinced Poile can build a winner.
I'm sure you can say the same thing for most the file for arbitration, the fact remains, 9 out of 10 times, arbitration ends with the player being traded.

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08-02-2011, 05:02 PM
  #27
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The low $ amount doesn't make sense for the Preds. You have SW for at least 2 more yrs. If SW wants to see what the Preds do to make the team better then both sides should have made a deal for the 1 yr. Not go to Arbbitration to decide the 1 yr salary. I don't blame SW at all. Do what NJ and ZP did, sign a 1 yr for around 6m and see what happens. This is all on the Preds (unless SW wants out of Nashville).

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08-02-2011, 05:05 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I'm sure you can say the same thing for most the file for arbitration, the fact remains, 9 out of 10 times, arbitration ends with the player being traded.
and 95% of all statistics quoted on message boards are made up out of thin air

you are going for the record for unsubstantiated assertions today arent you trigg??

Campoli this year, Neimi last year, and Dumont about 5 years ago all ended in walkaways not trades. So for your stats to be correct you need to come up with 27 arbitration cases that ended up with the player traded.

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08-02-2011, 05:07 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
and 95% of all statistics quoted on message boards are made up out of thin air

you are going for the record for unsubstantiated assertions today arent you trigg??

Campoli this year, Neimi last year, and Dumont about 5 years ago all ended in walkaways not trades. So for your stats to be correct you need to come up with 27 arbitration cases that ended up with the player traded.
Sorry 9/10 end up with the player switching teams. Better?

Or how about David Poile has never kept a player he went through arbitration with.

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08-02-2011, 05:10 PM
  #30
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Sorry 9/10 end up with the player switching teams. Better?

Or how about David Poile has never kept a player he went through arbitration with.
and that sample size is what, 2?

Lambert and Koistnen?

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08-02-2011, 05:12 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
and that sample size is what, 2?

Lambert and Koistnen?
You think arbitration was a good move. I think it was a bad move both pr and on the ice.

I've given you my reasons, I don't think I'm alone.

This was Poile's worse move as a Preds GM, his second worse move in his career.

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08-02-2011, 05:28 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
and that sample size is what, 2?

Lambert and Koistnen?
those are all stars or to quote dany heatley ... mother ****ing all stars oh wait, no they're not

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08-02-2011, 05:37 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
You think arbitration was a good move. I think it was a bad move both pr and on the ice.

I've given you my reasons, I don't think I'm alone.

This was Poile's worse move as a Preds GM, his second worse move in his career.
There is no way this can be good I'm trying feverishly to be open minded but letting Weber go through all this is just not good.

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08-02-2011, 05:40 PM
  #34
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It's more likely that Weber has had just as much to do with this reaching arbitration as Poile has than it is simply Poile putting Weber through it. Both sides have to reach an agreement in a negotiation for it to be successful. Weber is sticking by his desire to sign a short term deal. Poile wanted a long term deal, and rightfully so in my opinion.

edit: just so everyone knows, I don't think arbitration is a good thing. I didn't want this to happen at all, but I'm also not convinced that the sky is falling or that Poile is the one to carry the vast majority of the blame.

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08-02-2011, 05:41 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
You think arbitration was a good move. I think it was a bad move both pr and on the ice.

I've given you my reasons, I don't think I'm alone.

This was Poile's worse move as a Preds GM, his second worse move in his career.
you misquote and misunderstand me. I absolutely do not think arbitration was a good move and I suspect Poile would have liked to avoid it if at all possible. Hes not stupid or he'd be at home typing on a message board like the rest of us.

But it appears Weber gave him no choice. We will know more if we ever hear what Weber was asking for.

answer me this, would you have paid weber 10 million for one year just to avoid the negative PR of arbitration? how about 9 million? what is your definition of "unreasonable"?

the fact is you have no idea if this was even poiles move or not. it may have been webers.

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08-02-2011, 05:42 PM
  #36
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But who can blame Weber? Poile is not committed to getting a top tier player, which we need. Not Mike Fisher good, Parise/Ryan/Carter good. Once Poile stops being such a scared wuss and gets someone Weber will see the commitment, but not until then. I dont wanna hear "who would we give up" a deal can be worked out. We have way toooooo many prospects and NHL ready players.

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08-02-2011, 05:47 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by I Will Son View Post
But who can blame Weber? Poile is not committed to getting a top tier player, which we need. Not Mike Fisher good, Parise/Ryan/Carter good. Once Poile stops being such a scared wuss and gets someone Weber will see the commitment, but not until then. I dont wanna hear "who would we give up" a deal can be worked out. We have way toooooo many prospects and NHL ready players.
I agree that we have pieces, but do we have the pieces those teams not only need, but want? Are we the only team? If not, are the other teams willing to overpay? If we have to overpay, does the cost effectively negate the return? What if the forward we want has a NTC or NMC? Does the player want to even come here? Does he fit our system, and if not is he good enough to make up for not fitting the system by creating his own magic? What about injury history? Is the contract able to be insured? We haven't even gotten to money yet. I want see a move as bad as anyone to get a top-end forward, but there are more variables than just "Poile is too scared to take a risk".

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08-02-2011, 05:49 PM
  #38
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you misquote and misunderstand me. I absolutely do not think arbitration was a good move and I suspect Poile would have liked to avoid it if at all possible. Hes not stupid or he'd be at home typing on a message board like the rest of us.

But it appears Weber gave him no choice. We will know more if we ever hear what Weber was asking for.

answer me this, would you have paid weber 10 million for one year just to avoid the negative PR of arbitration? how about 9 million? what is your definition of "unreasonable"?

the fact is you have no idea if this was even poiles move or not. it may have been webers.
a penny more than Nicklas Lidstrom coin (6.2 Million) is ridiculous

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08-02-2011, 05:52 PM
  #39
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I agree that we have pieces, but do we have the pieces those teams not only need, but want? Are we the only team? If not, are the other teams willing to overpay? I want see a move as bad as anyone to get a top-end forward, but there are more variables than just "Poile is too scared to take a risk".
Well sometimes you got to do things you dont want to. This could be the case, we have never been more confident in our team prior to this nonsense. We were riding the wave, Poile should of to and gotten a forward in trade after the season. Even if it meant over payment.

Ellis is where I start for any forward. You can add Watson, Beck, Wilson, Latta, Halischuk, Josi, Ekholm, Lindback, O'reilly, Smith, even SK Erat or Hornqvist could be trade bait if a high caliber player is coming back.

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08-02-2011, 06:18 PM
  #40
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Well sometimes you got to do things you dont want to. This could be the case, we have never been more confident in our team prior to this nonsense. We were riding the wave, Poile should of to and gotten a forward in trade after the season. Even if it meant over payment.

Ellis is where I start for any forward. You can add Watson, Beck, Wilson, Latta, Halischuk, Josi, Ekholm, Lindback, O'reilly, Smith, even SK Erat or Hornqvist could be trade bait if a high caliber player is coming back.
statements like this just make me shake my head.

there are 30 teams and ALL of them would probably like to add a top 6 winger.

exactly ONE player who might be good enough to meet what we assume are Webers demands got traded this offseason.... and so poile is a loser because he didnt get carter??

as I have said many times, blaming a GM for a trade not made is easy to do and impossible to refute but really makes no more sense than blaming a GM for not drafting the diamond in the rough that lasted until the 6th round

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08-02-2011, 06:23 PM
  #41
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statements like this just make me shake my head.

there are 30 teams and ALL of them would probably like to add a top 6 winger.

exactly ONE player who might be good enough to meet what we assume are Webers demands got traded this offseason.... and so poile is a loser because he didnt get carter??

as I have said many times, blaming a GM for a trade not made is easy to do and impossible to refute but really makes no more sense than blaming a GM for not drafting the diamond in the rough that lasted until the 6th round
I never said I blame him for not getting Carter. I said he should of made a move for a Carter esque player. Your sticking up for Poile way to much. He ****ed up. Hes passive, and obviously its not easy but he should have the ability to make something happen in a trade. Otherwise he shouldnt be a GM. Some teams actually need Defense more than Offense. Some have too many forwards. Richards got traded too, so did Setoguchi, so did Havlat, so did Stewart and James Neal end of last season. Poile has missed out on plenty of chances. Other than Forsberg (you could argue Sullivan) Poile has never made a trade for a scorer. Thats not good when you cant draft them either. He waits for the players to come to him. Kariya/Arnott/Dumont. We have never had the Valuable assets we have now. It is/was our chance.

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08-02-2011, 06:28 PM
  #42
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statements like this just make me shake my head.

there are 30 teams and ALL of them would probably like to add a top 6 winger.

exactly ONE player who might be good enough to meet what we assume are Webers demands got traded this offseason.... and so poile is a loser because he didnt get carter??

as I have said many times, blaming a GM for a trade not made is easy to do and impossible to refute but really makes no more sense than blaming a GM for not drafting the diamond in the rough that lasted until the 6th round
dude, honestly we dont even have a forward who is in in the 50 best forwards in the League (maybe even up to the 75-100 range) so i think are needs for a top 6 winger are far greater than most of the other Nhl teams.

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08-02-2011, 06:29 PM
  #43
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dude, honestly we dont even have a forward who is in in the 50 best forwards in the League (maybe even up to the 75-100 range) so i think are needs for a top 6 winger are far greater than most of the other Nhl teams.
Exactly.

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08-02-2011, 06:31 PM
  #44
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I agree that we have pieces, but do we have the pieces those teams not only need, but want? Are we the only team? If not, are the other teams willing to overpay? If we have to overpay, does the cost effectively negate the return? What if the forward we want has a NTC or NMC? Does the player want to even come here? Does he fit our system, and if not is he good enough to make up for not fitting the system by creating his own magic? What about injury history? Is the contract able to be insured? We haven't even gotten to money yet. I want see a move as bad as anyone to get a top-end forward, but there are more variables than just "Poile is too scared to take a risk".
Poile took the risk for Forsberg and it didn't work out. That's sports and trading and life in general and that was under the previous adminstation ...understandable but we are not just talking about just this year. If these pieces are available and we don't know what is offered and not offered and what's on the table. But the scenario you put up I don't know how we ever make a deal talk about the sky falling. Scoring has been this teams achilles heel and never have addressed and the reason it's all risk. Lombardi was a risk that come to frution. Sk was no risk and turned out well. Why do the top teams stay the top teams because their top players are consistant scorers we don't have that. We have a player who scores 30 one year and 20 the next and so on not picking on one player but it's down the board. Buffalo was in our same situation and they lost a bunch of players and then they got new ownership and they started spending. Will it work out I don't know but I feel that their season tickets sales now are better than they were.

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08-02-2011, 09:40 PM
  #45
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LMAO at all the posters who are bagging on a GM nomintaed for best gm in the whole flipping league two years running. If youre gonna throw up webers norris nom then you need to include poiles. However we got to this situation, it is NOT because poile is an incompetent GM

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08-02-2011, 10:32 PM
  #46
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LMAO at all the posters who are bagging on a GM nomintaed for best gm in the whole flipping league two years running. If youre gonna throw up webers norris nom then you need to include poiles. However we got to this situation, it is NOT because poile is an incompetent GM
Hmmm.

Every person has their strengths and weaknesses. Glen Sather was able to GM a team to the Cup. He's also made a lot of incredibly bad deals.

David Poile is a very good GM. He has a history of being able to craft competitive teams on a budget. He also has a history of being patient to the extreme. He's basically perceived as a very good GM that makes the safe decision, generally at the last possible moment. He's also been in this position once before with an elite defenseman in Stevens and made the wrong decision. There's also a perception out there that he doesn't know how to craft a Cup winning team.

While most of those traits are very good for Nashville, there are some side effects that aren't. If you aren't a little more aggressive at addressing team issues, it can foster a perception of standing still- alienating fans and players. If you wait to the last possible moment to sign players you are subject to the financial situation of that time (which always trends upward with the exception of the first year of a new CBA). EDIT: Note that this past off-season only added to the history and perceptions of David Poile as a GM. It's slightly magnified due to it being the most recent, the accomplishments of the team last season, and what needed to be done in signing Weber and laying the groundwork for Suter and Rinne.

Most of that is fact with some perception. Of course, I've learned the hard way that perception is fact too until a new perception takes its place.

Combine that with the feeling that Weber is the first real homegrown superstar and that having him leave is not only a PR black eye (particularly coming off the most successful season in team history), but greatly hurts the chances of retaining Suter and Rinne as well. Not to mention it does nothing good for the perception of your franchise among the players in the League.

The perception was that it was especially important for David Poile to lock up Weber for a reasonable amount of time (4+ yrs), he had a year to do it, and he gave off the perception of approaching the negotiations in the "typical" Poile speed.

Ultimately, Weber and his agent played a significant role in whatever happens. There's no doubt, however, that Poile has significant egg on his face with this disaster due to both the reality and perceptions that his style fosters. The owners also have significant egg on their face.


Last edited by David Singleton: 08-02-2011 at 11:08 PM.
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08-02-2011, 10:54 PM
  #47
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I don't see how people can just claim that DP should have just gone out and gotten a top 6 forward. As if it was some EA sports game and was easy as a couple of button clicks.

Some forwards moved around this year. Not many. And very few that people would have been excited about.

Setoguchi - he cost Brent Burns. It would have taken a Suter/Weber type of offer.
Carter - Again, what assets do we have available that would have topped Voracek and #8? Remember, Philly isn't interested in D-prospects.
Brad Richards - he was destined for NY long before FA even started.

Anyone else?

But i guess it's easier to get on here and bash DP - "geez, I don't see why they don't just go get Ovechkin - Ryan Ellis and a 1st should do it, derp - he must be a cheapskate."

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08-02-2011, 11:18 PM
  #48
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Poile is a very good GM but the amount of blind faith in him is astounding here. For the club to actually make it too Arb with Shea meant there was some sort of fundamental disagreement in negotiations. From all the statements we have heard from ownership money is not likely the issue. Poile wants a longer contract and Shea wants a shorter contract. If neither side would budge it's ridiculous that Poile let it get to Arb. I highly doubt Weber was wanting 8+ million on a one year deal. Poile should have signed him to a 1 year deal before Arb. Now the team had to drag his name through the mud and he's still going to get 6-7 million. Just seems very terribly played from Poile.

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08-02-2011, 11:45 PM
  #49
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If a player says he doesn't want to deal with it during the season, what is poile supposed to do!! And weber had a personal situation last summer. The agent change
threw this under the bus. He
wouldn't return DP calls.
(also look at mirtle Column in globe and mail concerning his agent)
Now, if Poile loses Suter, fire him!

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08-03-2011, 12:35 AM
  #50
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Hmmm.

Every person has their strengths and weaknesses. Glen Sather was able to GM a team to the Cup. He's also made a lot of incredibly bad deals.

David Poile is a very good GM. He has a history of being able to craft competitive teams on a budget. He also has a history of being patient to the extreme. He's basically perceived as a very good GM that makes the safe decision, generally at the last possible moment. He's also been in this position once before with an elite defenseman in Stevens and made the wrong decision. There's also a perception out there that he doesn't know how to craft a Cup winning team.

While most of those traits are very good for Nashville, there are some side effects that aren't. If you aren't a little more aggressive at addressing team issues, it can foster a perception of standing still- alienating fans and players. If you wait to the last possible moment to sign players you are subject to the financial situation of that time (which always trends upward with the exception of the first year of a new CBA). EDIT: Note that this past off-season only added to the history and perceptions of David Poile as a GM. It's slightly magnified due to it being the most recent, the accomplishments of the team last season, and what needed to be done in signing Weber and laying the groundwork for Suter and Rinne.

Most of that is fact with some perception. Of course, I've learned the hard way that perception is fact too until a new perception takes its place.

Combine that with the feeling that Weber is the first real homegrown superstar and that having him leave is not only a PR black eye (particularly coming off the most successful season in team history), but greatly hurts the chances of retaining Suter and Rinne as well. Not to mention it does nothing good for the perception of your franchise among the players in the League.

The perception was that it was especially important for David Poile to lock up Weber for a reasonable amount of time (4+ yrs), he had a year to do it, and he gave off the perception of approaching the negotiations in the "typical" Poile speed.

Ultimately, Weber and his agent played a significant role in whatever happens. There's no doubt, however, that Poile has significant egg on his face with this disaster due to both the reality and perceptions that his style fosters. The owners also have significant egg on their face.
very reasonably stated, unlike a lot of the hyperventilations that have popped up today.

however, the bolded passage underscores the fact that all we are able to have is perception, or more accurately, assumption. we dont know to what extent poile has tried to sign weber over the last year. Contrary to what has been said on here today, Poile has extended players early, on multiple occasions, so I think its disingenious to label him as a ditherer. the problem is Poile doesnt talk to the media about things like this, so we really dont know what has transpired.


Bottom line is, if Weber was determined not to sign, it wouldnt have mattered if Poile had called Webers agent every day, sent flowers, or moved into Webers basement, a deal wasnt going to get done.


is it still a PR disaster, regardless of who is to blame? The answer will lie in the upcoming season. Winning fixes everything, and if the Preds have another solid season, and especially if they have more playoff success, nobody is going to remember these heated days in July and August...

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