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So Shea wants a short term deal ?

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Old
08-02-2011, 06:32 PM
  #726
AEM6729
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
There isn't much of a difference between a one year deal from an arbiter and a one year deal from a GM by the time next summer rolls around. Either way, Weber cannot be taken to team elected arbitration. He can file for arbitration himself, and in that case he either gets a one year deal that takes him to free agency or the team walks and he becomes a UFA one year early. Either way, Weber is going to be open to offer sheets if he chooses to not seek arbitration. The threat is very real even if the likelihood is low that one comes in. Either way, Weber isn't committed to the team, and gets to see what moves, if any, are made. He also gets to see how the new CBA negotiations are going. Simply put, the last thing Poile could do was stand his ground and potentially get the same length at a lower cost.
There's a huge difference between a one year deal from an arbiter and one from a GM, IMO. Instead of signing a one-year deal after good-faith negotiations between both sides where everybody respects what the other side wants, we're dragging our home-grown superstar and captain through an ugly process where we point out why he isn't worth what he thinks he is. In one scenario, maybe Weber comes out feeling pretty good about the team and respected by them. In the other, he may come out with a really bad taste in his mouth and absolutely no desire to negotiate in good faith next summer. He could just refuse to sign anything, then wait for offer sheets or a trade. To say a 1-year deal is the same no matter who it comes from is just wrong. It's why Parise was signed to a 1-year deal by his GM instead of going through with arbitration.

And speaking of Parise, why the hell would he want to come here, and if he did, why would he want to stay here? Whatever the circumstances, the relationship between the team and our most important player is damaged. If I'm Parise and I'm watching all this crap unfold, there's no way I'm coming to Nashville so the owners/GM/whoever can nickel and dime me to death and I can play on a cap-floor team. Noooo thanks. If I was forced to come here via trade I'd peace out as a UFA during the summer for sure.

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08-02-2011, 06:39 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by AEM6729 View Post
There's a huge difference between a one year deal from an arbiter and one from a GM, IMO. Instead of signing a one-year deal after good-faith negotiations between both sides where everybody respects what the other side wants, we're dragging our home-grown superstar and captain through an ugly process where we point out why he isn't worth what he thinks he is. In one scenario, maybe Weber comes out feeling pretty good about the team and respected by them. In the other, he may come out with a really bad taste in his mouth and absolutely no desire to negotiate in good faith next summer. He could just refuse to sign anything, then wait for offer sheets or a trade. To say a 1-year deal is the same no matter who it comes from is just wrong. It's why Parise was signed to a 1-year deal by his GM instead of going through with arbitration.

And speaking of Parise, why the hell would he want to come here, and if he did, why would he want to stay here? Whatever the circumstances, the relationship between the team and our most important player is damaged. If I'm Parise and I'm watching all this crap unfold, there's no way I'm coming to Nashville so the owners/GM/whoever can nickel and dime me to death and I can play on a cap-floor team. Noooo thanks. If I was forced to come here via trade I'd peace out as a UFA during the summer for sure.
When these players like Parise and Weber know they can get their money and have greater chance at a cup. The bottom line is that the players is always going want more money I don't care who it is but he plays the sport and wants to win for himself and the team and bottom of it is the city and the fans. But if the team and the player aren't committed to the same things then discontent sets in and soon they are parted and a discontented player won't bring as much in trade as otherwise

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08-02-2011, 06:52 PM
  #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEM6729 View Post
There's a huge difference between a one year deal from an arbiter and one from a GM, IMO. Instead of signing a one-year deal after good-faith negotiations between both sides where everybody respects what the other side wants, we're dragging our home-grown superstar and captain through an ugly process where we point out why he isn't worth what he thinks he is.
You've clearly had more palatable negotiating experience than I have. I can't speak specifically for NHL-style arbitration and how nasty it is, but negotiations that directly affect people's paychecks (i.e. sales of wholly-owned businesses where the owner is retiring) are often unpleasant and all of the evidence submitted to an arbiter for a decision would have/should have been brought to the opposing negotiator over the course of the negotiations.

The same case you make to the arbiter should basically be a condensed (either by virtue of the arbiters' role or by other limitations in the process) version of your stance to the opposing negotiator. It's not like new facts are being submitted. In fact, it's really the opposite as certain comparables and financial factors that both sides might use are off the table. If Poile thinks Weber is worth a certain amount, he's already told Weber's representation his reasoning or he's a bad negotiator.

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08-02-2011, 07:01 PM
  #729
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I wish I could find an article I read recently about an NHL GM (Lombardi I think?) saying how terrible arbitration is and how you always want to avoid it. Someone else mentioned it around here as well, but I can't find it.

Arbitration is bad. There's a reason why nobody but f-ing Chris Campoli has actually gone to a hearing this year.

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08-02-2011, 07:21 PM
  #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEM6729 View Post
I wish I could find an article I read recently about an NHL GM (Lombardi I think?) saying how terrible arbitration is and how you always want to avoid it. Someone else mentioned it around here as well, but I can't find it.

Arbitration is bad. There's a reason why nobody but f-ing Chris Campoli has actually gone to a hearing this year.
I've read Howson say he doesn't like it. I agree that it is probably more unpleasant than normal because the player is typically there (to my understanding) and all of the points made during negotiations are condensed into a brief discussion of the player. I think the unpleasantness is overstated because of how tense actual negotiations would likely be leading up to arbitration. To me, the difference isn't huge, as you had implied.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the primary reason behind avoiding arbitration is to avoid the unknown decision that hangs out there. That and most teams/players would prefer a longer term deal than that handed out by arbiters.

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08-02-2011, 08:24 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by AEM6729 View Post
I wish I could find an article I read recently about an NHL GM (Lombardi I think?) saying how terrible arbitration is and how you always want to avoid it. Someone else mentioned it around here as well, but I can't find it.

Arbitration is bad. There's a reason why nobody but f-ing Chris Campoli has actually gone to a hearing this year.
Yeah, Lombardi pretty much beat the snot out of Cammalleri's side in their arbitration hearing with the Kings. Cammalleri was traded in the following off season.

No way Cammalleri was worth the $6M he was asking for though, then or now.

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08-02-2011, 08:33 PM
  #732
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So the Predators low-balled in arbitration with $4.7 or whatever million. Yes I understand the pawn stars concept. And that we will likely meet in the middle.

But the Predators had to spend 90 minutes explaining to the arbitrator why Shea Weber was worth that low ball offer. You think that doesn't the player just a little bit? Give me a break.

People will tout that arbitration was worth it in case we save a bit of money since perhaps a stop gap 1 year deal was going to be signed anyway. I still suggest that that money isn't worth straining a relationship with a Norris candidate all-star defensemen who happens to be your captain and face of the franchise. Not to mention the message it sends to the rest of the players and league. I'm sure Suter and Rinne are running up to sign now. They will likely need to be overpaid in order to be convinced to stay.

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08-02-2011, 08:37 PM
  #733
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We have to be able to at least keep 1 out of the 3 right?....I mean,....right? The doomsday scenario of losing all 3 could be happening.

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08-02-2011, 09:05 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
So the Predators low-balled in arbitration with $4.7 or whatever million. Yes I understand the pawn stars concept. And that we will likely meet in the middle.

But the Predators had to spend 90 minutes explaining to the arbitrator why Shea Weber was worth that low ball offer. You think that doesn't the player just a little bit? Give me a break.

People will tout that arbitration was worth it in case we save a bit of money since perhaps a stop gap 1 year deal was going to be signed anyway. I still suggest that that money isn't worth straining a relationship with a Norris candidate all-star defensemen who happens to be your captain and face of the franchise. Not to mention the message it sends to the rest of the players and league. I'm sure Suter and Rinne are running up to sign now. They will likely need to be overpaid in order to be convinced to stay.
The team has as many as 90 minutes to plead their case...they don't HAVE to spend 90 minutes doing it. What if Poile just says "We want to lock Shea up long term and money isn't an issue but if he is set on a 1 year contract then all we are prepared to give him is 4.75 mil. He is an RFA after all." Why would that be so bad?

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08-02-2011, 09:11 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by nine_inch_fang View Post
The team has as many as 90 minutes to plead their case...they don't HAVE to spend 90 minutes doing it. What if Poile just says "We want to lock Shea up long term and money isn't an issue but if he is set on a 1 year contract then all we are prepared to give him is 4.75 mil. He is an RFA after all." Why would that be so bad?
Sure anything is possible. I don't see it.

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08-02-2011, 09:23 PM
  #736
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Sure anything is possible. I don't see it.
This just feels like it's coming down to Poile not being willing to offer a 1 year contract. I just don't understand why you'd try to create bad feelings

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08-02-2011, 09:25 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by nine_inch_fang View Post
This just feels like it's coming down to Poile not being willing to offer a 1 year contract. I just don't understand why you'd try to create bad feelings
I agree. Sign the one year deal and avoid the bad feelings. Not to mention if truly wants out, its probably easier to trade him after coming to a deal rather than arbitration.

(Not directed at you fang: ) If going to arbitration was such a good idea, why did the Devils avoid going to it with Parise?

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08-02-2011, 09:28 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
I agree. Sign the one year deal and avoid the bad feelings. Not to mention if truly wants out, its probably easier to trade him after coming to a deal rather than arbitration.

(Not directed at you fang: ) If going to arbitration was such a good idea, why did the Devils avoid going to it with Parise?
You're right it's probably not. my point is you can minimize the damage though.


Last edited by nine_inch_fang: 08-02-2011 at 09:36 PM.
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08-02-2011, 10:03 PM
  #739
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You're right it's probably not. my point is you can minimize the damage though.
I see your point and I can only hope the team did this.

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08-02-2011, 10:04 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
I agree. Sign the one year deal and avoid the bad feelings. Not to mention if truly wants out, its probably easier to trade him after coming to a deal rather than arbitration.

(Not directed at you fang: ) If going to arbitration was such a good idea, why did the Devils avoid going to it with Parise?
Good article about arbitration and how much it sucks:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/ellio...ith-weber.html

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08-03-2011, 12:52 AM
  #741
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Good article about arbitration and how much it sucks:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/ellio...ith-weber.html
great find. appears to confirm that the Preds did offer 4.75 which is of course unreasonable and Weber asked for 8.5 which is also unreasonable.

the key fact to note is that the arbiter doesnt have to choose one number or the other, he can choose any amount he thinks is reasonable, presumably something between the two figures.

I suspect the arguments werent very heated, at least not from Poile.

I cant imagine Poile actually argued for an award of 4.75, so basically the low ball offer from poile was a way of saying "8.5 is unreasonable, you wont come down to a reasonable figure, so I will just let the arbiter decide and pocket whatever savings I can get below 8.5.

to me this article certainl seems to indicate that Weber is the problem not Poile

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08-03-2011, 12:59 AM
  #742
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Reports keep mentioning how the Preds arb offer would make Shea the 26th highest paid defenseman ... the issue not mentioned is that many of those above him were paid those numbers on UFA deals which aren't comparable for arbitration (at least not supposed to be used for comparison).

Just an observation, but everything seemed to have gone to hell once Shea changed agents.

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08-03-2011, 01:34 AM
  #743
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Reports keep mentioning how the Preds arb offer would make Shea the 26th highest paid defenseman ... the issue not mentioned is that many of those above him were paid those numbers on UFA deals which aren't comparable for arbitration (at least not supposed to be used for comparison).

Just an observation, but everything seemed to have gone to hell once Shea changed agents.
Though you're correct, I think those reports are simply pointing out how absurd that offer is (if it's indeed true), and not really concerning themselves with whether or not those contracts can be used as comps at a hearing.

There are maybe 2 players you could even make an argument are more valuable defensive assets than Weber, so to even try to play the game that the comparable contracts (RFA deals for talented defenseman) puts Weber at 4.7 is quite frankly a silly exercise by Poile, even more silly than Weber's agent asking for 8+. If that's the way the arbitration game is played, then it's just a dumb process.

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08-03-2011, 01:38 AM
  #744
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Though you're correct, I think those reports are simply pointing out how absurd that offer is (if it's indeed true), and not really concerning themselves with whether or not those contracts can be used as comps at a hearing.

There are maybe 2 players you could even make an argument are more valuable defensive assets than Weber, so to even try to play the game that the comparable contracts (RFA deals for talented defenseman) puts Weber at 4.7 is quite frankly a silly exercise by Poile, even more silly than Weber's agent asking for 8+. If that's the way the arbitration game is played, then it's just a dumb process.
It should have never gotten to this point the deal should have been made before this for the good or the bad

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08-03-2011, 04:40 AM
  #745
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Originally Posted by gopreds19 View Post
Though you're correct, I think those reports are simply pointing out how absurd that offer is (if it's indeed true), and not really concerning themselves with whether or not those contracts can be used as comps at a hearing.

There are maybe 2 players you could even make an argument are more valuable defensive assets than Weber, so to even try to play the game that the comparable contracts (RFA deals for talented defenseman) puts Weber at 4.7 is quite frankly a silly exercise by Poile, even more silly than Weber's agent asking for 8+. If that's the way the arbitration game is played, then it's just a dumb process.
Saying he's worth more than Chara is just as flawed. One side submitted numbers that were overinflated, the other side lowballed excessively. I'm more interested in what the numbers were during negotiations, not the arbitration posturing numbers.

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08-03-2011, 04:59 AM
  #746
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Reports keep mentioning how the Preds arb offer would make Shea the 26th highest paid defenseman ... the issue not mentioned is that many of those above him were paid those numbers on UFA deals which aren't comparable for arbitration (at least not supposed to be used for comparison).

Just an observation, but everything seemed to have gone to hell once Shea changed agents.
Good article about the agent switch: http://www.foxsportstennessee.com/08...96&feedID=3732


Source for these is Josh Cooper's Twitter. He puts some interesting stuff out there.

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08-03-2011, 08:16 AM
  #747
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Here are a few articles worth reading:

http://www.foxsportstennessee.com/08...96&feedID=3732

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...medium=twitter

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/ellio...ith-weber.html

http://www.examiner.com/nashville-pr...-s-arbitration



Multiple things appear to be at play here [as many of us opinied]
-weber angered poile elected arbitration to block offer sheets
-poile's lack of commitment to winning by doing anything in off season to help offense
-change in agents and agents trying to make a name for themselves
-Predators yearly budget constraints and how that will keep them from truly competing for a stanley cup
-weber wanting to be the highest paid defenseman in the NHL
-Poile's cautious nature


Last edited by handtrick: 08-03-2011 at 08:26 AM.
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08-03-2011, 08:29 AM
  #748
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Originally Posted by handtrick View Post
Here are a few articles worth reading:

http://www.foxsportstennessee.com/08...96&feedID=3732

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...medium=twitter

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/ellio...ith-weber.html

http://www.examiner.com/nashville-pr...-s-arbitration



Multiple things appear to be at play here [as many of us opinied]
-weber angered poile elected arbitration to block offer sheets
-poile's lack of commitment to winning by doing anything in off season to help offense
-change in agents and agents trying to make a name for themselves
-Predators yearly budget constraints and how that will keep them from truly competing for a stanley cup
-weber wanting to be the highest paid defenseman in the NHL
-Poile's cautious nature
Spot on.

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08-03-2011, 08:42 AM
  #749
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Originally Posted by handtrick View Post
Here are a few articles worth reading:

http://www.foxsportstennessee.com/08...96&feedID=3732

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...medium=twitter

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/ellio...ith-weber.html

http://www.examiner.com/nashville-pr...-s-arbitration



Multiple things appear to be at play here [as many of us opinied]
-weber angered poile elected arbitration to block offer sheets
-poile's lack of commitment to winning by doing anything in off season to help offense
-change in agents and agents trying to make a name for themselves
-Predators yearly budget constraints and how that will keep them from truly competing for a stanley cup
-weber wanting to be the highest paid defenseman in the NHL
-Poile's cautious nature
definitely.

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08-03-2011, 08:47 AM
  #750
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