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Jagr expectations?

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08-02-2011, 05:06 PM
  #201
Jester
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Nothing screams "well thought out argument" like latching onto a complete outlier (Selanne) and expecting Jagr to follow that path.

I expect Jagr to have good production, but your low end expectation is delusional fanboy stuff.

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08-02-2011, 05:25 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Nothing screams "well thought out argument" like latching onto a complete outlier (Selanne) and expecting Jagr to follow that path.

I expect Jagr to have good production, but your low end expectation is delusional fanboy stuff.
How is Selanne an outlier?

More and more the NHL is moving towards training regimens and fitness.

New generation players benefit from training and dieting more so than even players did 15 years ago.

Outside of 1992-93, Jagr has outscored Selanne in terms of PPG in every season. What makes you think he won't do it again?

I'm a big Jagr fan, maybe some will call me obsessed but instead of criticizing my opinion, why don't you try criticizing my arguments.

The first thing that usually goes as you grow older as a hockey player are the legs. Jagr though was never known for his speed. He's massive and he's got legs built like tree trunks. He was considered by many to be slow even in 2005-06 when he scored 54 goals and 123 Pts, in fact that season he didn't score a single breakaway goal.

In 2007-08 he looked even slower and gassed out until the playoffs where he was the most dominant player of that playoffs through 2 rounds.

Quote:
Q: Can you compare the level of play in the KHL to the NHL?
“I’ve always said that the league is a totally different game on the big ice. That’s why there’s so many great players who play on the small ice that when they come on the big ice, they can’t play. It’s a totally different game. It’s tough to compare. If you had asked me three years ago, I would have told you I love to play on the small ice. I played there for 17 years. I felt a lot stronger than anybody, and I can play on the boards. It was a lot easier for me to play hockey on the small ice. But when I get to the big ice, I had to get used to it. I couldn’t play the same style. I had to change, had skate a lot more. You cannot stand. You have to skate a lot more. I think I’m better than I was, but you have to skate all the time. If you stand there, you don’t have a chance to play on the big ice.
What's in bold is in Jagr's own words. He himself says he's a better skater now than he was 3 years ago. All those who think Jagr can't score PPG are the ones who think he's too slow now and he can't keep up with this apparently "new, faster NHL".

When you age though, the vision, the playmaking don't go as fast as the legs and you know the saying, you can't teach size. Jagr still has elite size and strength, vision, playmaking and hands and with this added speed and refocus on conditioning and skating, I don't see how he won't be a PPG player.

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08-02-2011, 05:36 PM
  #203
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How is Selanne an outlier? Is that a serious question? How many 40 y.o PPG players have you watched the last few years?

Selanne just completed the 3rd best offensive season for a player his age in the history of the NHL. Lidstroms had the 5th best ever (tough to compare D) at 62 pts, and then there is Recchi at 61.

Only 4 players have had PPG seasons at 39, the last one being in 1980.

And I have been criticizing your arguments. They are the delusional ramblings of a fanboy. If Jagr gets to 83 pts that will be the best season in the history of the NHL for his age. A BAD year by your standards (70 pts) would be the 6th best season ever.

Is it possible? Sure. Should it be EXPECTED? Not at all.


Last edited by Jester: 08-02-2011 at 05:44 PM.
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08-02-2011, 07:26 PM
  #204
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They do, and they're about 13 dollars.
They need to change them to 68 dollars.









...........or .68 cents

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08-02-2011, 08:02 PM
  #205
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Let me ask the question then....for the Flyers masses (at least those on HFBoards) how would you feel if you see a fellow Flyers fan wearing a Flyers Jagr jersey? Is it acceptable? Personally I feel as long as you support the team it's okay,(gotta remember like him/hate him Jagr is an alltime player-who's now a Flyer), but I'm interested in what other people think?

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08-02-2011, 08:11 PM
  #206
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I don't really see anybody disputing it. I'd take Jagr over Ville "The Hip" Leino. I'm willing to bet his production drops now that he isn't on the HBL line.
i was suggesting more the lack of acknowledgment that Homer did very well for us...

and yea, i think the buffalo fans are going to HATE Leino by november haha. Hes making WAY too much for WAAAY too long.

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08-02-2011, 08:21 PM
  #207
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i was suggesting more the lack of acknowledgment that Homer did very well for us...

and yea, i think the buffalo fans are going to HATE Leino by november haha. Hes making WAY too much for WAAAY too long.
They think he is an upgrade to Tim "constantly injured" Connolly. Or at least that is what I've heard one fan say. I think Leino will produce for them, but he won't be worth 4.5M.

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08-02-2011, 08:35 PM
  #208
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They need to change them to 68 dollars.
With the way concessions are going up, just wait a few years.

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08-02-2011, 08:53 PM
  #209
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How is Selanne an outlier? Is that a serious question? How many 40 y.o PPG players have you watched the last few years?

Selanne just completed the 3rd best offensive season for a player his age in the history of the NHL. Lidstroms had the 5th best ever (tough to compare D) at 62 pts, and then there is Recchi at 61.

Only 4 players have had PPG seasons at 39, the last one being in 1980.

And I have been criticizing your arguments. They are the delusional ramblings of a fanboy. If Jagr gets to 83 pts that will be the best season in the history of the NHL for his age. A BAD year by your standards (70 pts) would be the 6th best season ever.

Is it possible? Sure. Should it be EXPECTED? Not at all.
If anyone can be in the record books for the most points ever by a 39-40 year then it sure is Jagr.

How many players have won 5 Art Ross trophies or more? I'm sure 3 of the 5 are considered top 4 all-time.

Lidstrom scored 62 Pts as a defenseman at age 40 and that to me is comparable to Jagr potentially scoring PPG at age 40 as a forward. Lidstrom also won a Norris at age 41. Jagr is much closer to Lidstrom's level in terms of talent and all-time standing than anyone in the NHL right now. In fact Jagr is among the 3 best European trained players to ever play in the NHL, the other 2 being Hasek and no other than Lidstrom,.

Don't you think Jagr hasn't looked at what Lidstrom and Selanne have accomplished at their age and thought to himself "If they can do it then I can do it as well"?

Hockey has a long history and tradition but you need to just look at other sports in which players in their late 30's and early 40's have remained elite to see what I'm trying to say.

In the NFL guys like Warner and Favre continued to be elite and actually were in the Superbowl and were the starting Quarterbacks.

In the NBA John Stockton, Jabbar and ever Jordan were still elite players and were making the All-Star game at age 40. (Jordan btw was out of shape while Jagr right now is in shape).

At age 40 Randy Johnson threw the most dominant Perfect game in the history of the MLB with 13 strikeouts en route to a NL leading 290 strikeouts and ERA and finished 2nd in Cy Young voting to another 40 + year old player in Clemens. In fact a lot of players in their late 30's are dominant in MLB in a league that plays 162 games.

Randy Couture in UFC was the best fighter in the world at age 40 (MMA is a very tough sport and is even more taxing on the body than the NHL is).

Nolan Ryan was still throwing no hitters and striking out batters like no tomorrow well into his 40's.

George Forman won the Heavyweight title at age 46 and he was complete out of shape compared to his glory days.

We all know how good Gordie Howe was even in his 40's.

Do you know what these guys all have in common? They are among the very best ever in their respective sports. Do you know what Jagr has in common with them? He's among the very best ever at his sport as well.

You keep saying how my arguments are ridiculous except everything I say comes with strong arguments and it's me not talking out of my a**. I can sit here and get experts to support my arguments and you still won't appreciate them until Jagr actually goes out and scores at the elite level I think he will score at.

I know the World Championships were just a tournament but the way Jagr played, he showed he can still be a world elite force. I didn't see guys like Kovalchuk, Ovechkin do what Jagr did at the Worlds (Ovechkin and Kovalchuk are among the game's top 15 best players).

Other than a very few players in most professional sports who were great at age 40 in 70's or before, most of this group of elite elder men has continued to rise since the 80's. Coincidence? I think not. I think this has to do with the growing emphasis on training and dieting.

Heck had Gretzky not had the bad back he would have continued to be impressive even passed the age of 40 and I don't think he would have retired as early.

Lemieux' health problems are well documented and even with those problems he had 91 Pts in 68 games at age 38 (just a year younger than Jagr and was in a much worse state of health than Jagr finds himself in now).

The NHL is a very taxing league and can really wear down a player as he ages. Jagr though went to the KHL at age 36 and right now his body is not the body of a 39 year old in terms of fitness, wear and health. If we can actually measure a player's wear and tear, Jagr would be placed in the age group of 34-36 as opposed to 39 +.

How many 39 or 40 year old players look like this?



Or like this?



Or even like this?



BTW the last pic was after the World Championships.

If a player is in great shape and has no health issues and has no wear on his body and is already an all-time great, has the hands, the size, the strength, the vision, the playmaking and the shot, then why couldn't he be elite? Is it only because of his age?

Question to you. When was the last time there were 4 players who were all 40 or older still playing at an elite level and all of them at the same time like we had in 2010-11? Roloson, Selanne, Recchi and Lidstrom were all playing at every high levels. Doesn't this indicate something to you? Maybe, just maybe seeing players who are 40 and still paying at a very high level, even levels close to their prime years is becoming more normal?

This goes back to the argument that athletes are putting more emphasis on training and keeping fit and thus prolonging their careers as long as they can remain healthy. Jagr, barring any freak accident will be entering the 2011-12 season 100% healthy and in great shape. People say Lidstrom has continued to be elite because he's in such great shape and some call him a freak of nature in terms of fitness, well Jagr is similar in that sense.

To me it seems like you have no real argument other than the age.


It doesn't matter though how much proof or research I come forth with, you're convinced that Jagr can't be elite or PPG and nothing will change your mind.


Last edited by livewell68: 08-02-2011 at 09:31 PM.
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Old
08-02-2011, 08:58 PM
  #210
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tl;dr

If Jagr gets more than a PPG, that will be above what anyone should expect from him.

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08-02-2011, 10:05 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
If anyone can be in the record books for the most points ever by a 39-40 year then it sure is Jagr.

How many players have won 5 Art Ross trophies or more? I'm sure 3 of the 5 are considered top 4 all-time.

Lidstrom scored 62 Pts as a defenseman at age 40 and that to me is comparable to Jagr potentially scoring PPG at age 40 as a forward. Lidstrom also won a Norris at age 41. Jagr is much closer to Lidstrom's level in terms of talent and all-time standing than anyone in the NHL right now. In fact Jagr is among the 3 best European trained players to ever play in the NHL, the other 2 being Hasek and no other than Lidstrom,.

Don't you think Jagr hasn't looked at what Lidstrom and Selanne have accomplished at their age and thought to himself "If they can do it then I can do it as well"?

Hockey has a long history and tradition but you need to just look at other sports in which players in their late 30's and early 40's have remained elite to see what I'm trying to say.

In the NFL guys like Warner and Favre continued to be elite and actually were in the Superbowl and were the starting Quarterbacks.

In the NBA John Stockton, Jabbar and ever Jordan were still elite players and were making the All-Star game at age 40. (Jordan btw was out of shape while Jagr right now is in shape).

At age 40 Randy Johnson threw the most dominant Perfect game in the history of the MLB with 13 strikeouts en route to a NL leading 290 strikeouts and ERA and finished 2nd in Cy Young voting to another 40 + year old player in Clemens. In fact a lot of players in their late 30's are dominant in MLB in a league that plays 162 games.

Randy Couture in UFC was the best fighter in the world at age 40 (MMA is a very tough sport and is even more taxing on the body than the NHL is).

Nolan Ryan was still throwing no hitters and striking out batters like no tomorrow well into his 40's.

George Forman won the Heavyweight title at age 46 and he was complete out of shape compared to his glory days.

We all know how good Gordie Howe was even in his 40's.

Do you know what these guys all have in common? They are among the very best ever in their respective sports. Do you know what Jagr has in common with them? He's among the very best ever at his sport as well.

You keep saying how my arguments are ridiculous except everything I say comes with strong arguments and it's me not talking out of my a**. I can sit here and get experts to support my arguments and you still won't appreciate them until Jagr actually goes out and scores at the elite level I think he will score at.

I know the World Championships were just a tournament but the way Jagr played, he showed he can still be a world elite force. I didn't see guys like Kovalchuk, Ovechkin do what Jagr did at the Worlds (Ovechkin and Kovalchuk are among the game's top 15 best players).

Other than a very few players in most professional sports who were great at age 40 in 70's or before, most of this group of elite elder men has continued to rise since the 80's. Coincidence? I think not. I think this has to do with the growing emphasis on training and dieting.

Heck had Gretzky not had the bad back he would have continued to be impressive even passed the age of 40 and I don't think he would have retired as early.

Lemieux' health problems are well documented and even with those problems he had 91 Pts in 68 games at age 38 (just a year younger than Jagr and was in a much worse state of health than Jagr finds himself in now).

The NHL is a very taxing league and can really wear down a player as he ages. Jagr though went to the KHL at age 36 and right now his body is not the body of a 39 year old in terms of fitness, wear and health. If we can actually measure a player's wear and tear, Jagr would be placed in the age group of 34-36 as opposed to 39 +.

How many 39 or 40 year old players look like this?



Or like this?



Or even like this?



BTW the last pic was after the World Championships.

If a player is in great shape and has no health issues and has no wear on his body and is already an all-time great, has the hands, the size, the strength, the vision, the playmaking and the shot, then why couldn't he be elite? Is it only because of his age?

To me it seems like you have no real argument other than the age.


It doesn't matter though how much proof or research I come forth with, you're convinced that Jagr can't be elite or PPG and nothing will change your mind.
Here's one...



he put up very respectable numbers for a guy his age too... but he wasn't a PPG player. Retired at 40 years of age... you might know him.

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08-02-2011, 10:28 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
Here's one...



he put up very respectable numbers for a guy his age too... but he wasn't a PPG player. Retired at 40 years of age... you might know him.
Brind'amour though for what he brought to the table was very elite. He was a two-way player and to expect him to be PPG at age 40 is not fair.

Jagr has always been pure offense and so for him to be considered elite, it would mean PPG at age 40.

A 41 year old Lidstrom had 62 Pts and won the Norris, that's elite for his age and his position.

Brind'amour although a great player was/is nowhere near the player Jagr was/is offensively. Brind'amour's career high was 97 Pts.

Jagr has surpassed that number 6 times in his career and to compare him to Brind'amour offensively is not fair for Brind'amour.

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08-02-2011, 11:41 PM
  #213
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I hope Jagr is as good as you think, I know that much haha.

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08-03-2011, 12:29 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Brind'amour though for what he brought to the table was very elite. He was a two-way player and to expect him to be PPG at age 40 is not fair.

Jagr has always been pure offense and so for him to be considered elite, it would mean PPG at age 40.

A 41 year old Lidstrom had 62 Pts and won the Norris, that's elite for his age and his position.

Brind'amour although a great player was/is nowhere near the player Jagr was/is offensively. Brind'amour's career high was 97 Pts.

Jagr has surpassed that number 6 times in his career and to compare him to Brind'amour offensively is not fair for Brind'amour.
Not comparing the player... only the body type. Jagr looks puny in comparison.

Jagr couldn't even score a PPG in the KHL: where he played fewer games than he would in the NHL and was pitted against sub par competition (AHL level).

Hey, whatever... we're all entitled to our opinions.

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08-03-2011, 12:45 AM
  #215
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Well, he's cetainly learned something new in Russia:

http://goo.gl/IZghb

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08-03-2011, 01:21 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
It doesn't matter though how much proof or research I come forth with, you're convinced that Jagr can't be elite or PPG and nothing will change your mind.
Your deep feelings for the poster on the wall are not research. Actual research based on empirical data of players going back and forth btwn the NHL and KHL says that Jagr is a 70 pt player... Not a guy about to threaten 100 pts.

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08-03-2011, 04:18 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
tl;dr

If Jagr gets more than a PPG, that will be above what anyone should expect from him.
Nothing like a well thought our argument though eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
Not comparing the player... only the body type. Jagr looks puny in comparison.

Jagr couldn't even score a PPG in the KHL: where he played fewer games than he would in the NHL and was pitted against sub par competition (AHL level).

Hey, whatever... we're all entitled to our opinions.
The KHL is not only a different league, but a different game. It's almost impossible to compare between the two.

Robert Esche is an all-star level goaltender in the KHL, patrick thoreson is a goalscoring god. It's a different game.

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08-03-2011, 04:24 AM
  #218
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Jaromir is one of my favourite Czech players all time - if not the favourite - despite his playing on two teams I despise (three now if you count Philly ). Anyway, I expect him to play extremely well. If Recchi can play, and contribute at 43 years old, it is not out of the realm of possibility for Jagr to pot 40+ points.

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08-03-2011, 09:15 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
Not comparing the player... only the body type. Jagr looks puny in comparison.

Jagr couldn't even score a PPG in the KHL: where he played fewer games than he would in the NHL and was pitted against sub par competition (AHL level).

Hey, whatever... we're all entitled to our opinions.
Puny? Jagr has lost weight and is still 225 lbs and 6'3. Brind'amour is 6'0 and was 205lbs in that pic. It seems to me Brind'amour is puny compared to Jagr.

As for the PPG argument in the KHL, he was above PPG this past season, the season before that he started off on fire only to see a good friend and fellow young player die right in front of his eyes. How do you expect him to focus on hockey after that?

The KHL is notorious for being very low scoring. The same KHL/ RSL who had guys like Datsyuk, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin all be under PPG in 2004-05 while guys like Sushinsky and Morozov were completely outscoring them.

The KHL is a different type of game and it benefits smaller players. Jagr's size and strength is more suited for the NHL.


Last edited by livewell68: 08-03-2011 at 09:21 AM.
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08-03-2011, 11:11 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Nothing like a well thought our argument though eh?
Helps when one understands the difference between an argument and a statement, eh?

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08-03-2011, 11:13 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by EddardStark View Post
Jaromir is one of my favourite Czech players all time - if not the favourite - despite his playing on two teams I despise (three now if you count Philly ). Anyway, I expect him to play extremely well. If Recchi can play, and contribute at 43 years old, it is not out of the realm of possibility for Jagr to pot 40+ points.
If Jagr doesn't pot 40+ points I'd be shocked. Given our roster he should get 20 out of the PP alone.

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08-03-2011, 11:37 AM
  #222
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Helps when one understands the difference between an argument and a statement, eh?
If i'm really honest, I don't particularly care. Just find it funny you get owned so you respond with tl;dr

Keep fighting the "i'm better than everyone fight though"

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08-03-2011, 11:40 AM
  #223
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Jagrs ready for a ppg season

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08-03-2011, 12:08 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
If i'm really honest, I don't particularly care. Just find it funny you get owned so you respond with tl;dr

Keep fighting the "i'm better than everyone fight though"
I got owned? That post was pure drivel. He posted pictures and blathered about how he's in great shape (as if late 30s folks that work out don't routinely look good, pro athlete or not). If you think I got owned by that post you have a lower bar than I think you do. Then he started talking about completely different sports as if they matter. I mean, my god, gimme a break. I guess I'll get ready for a 95 pt season because Randy Johnson pitched well at 40.

Keep fighting the snarky smart ass routine and sounding like an idiot, though.

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08-03-2011, 12:20 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
If i'm really honest, I don't particularly care. Just find it funny you get owned so you respond with tl;dr

Keep fighting the "i'm better than everyone fight though"
It's ok, my well thought arguments are wrong and his biased opinions are right.

There is no way he'll score over PPG.

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