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Old
08-03-2011, 05:29 PM
  #176
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They got lucky, basically. Like Montreal in 2009-2010, except Boston was a good team and Montreal was terrible that year. They, and especially their goalie, had the season of their lives. They're not a bad team, but they're a good team that rode good fortune and performance highs. They are not a strong team in the sense that it will lead to consistent, continued success, the way a team like Detroit has. For that, you need to control the puck and outplay your opponents consistently, and that's not what Boston does.
I think you calling them lucky is unfair, against Montreal overall Boston had the better of the play, 5 on 5 Boston dominated Montreal, only because your PP got red hot was it a series, and as we all know PP's blow hot and cold. Sure we won all 3 OT games, but let's be honest, if it wasn't for Price playing great and Thomas really struggling early in games and putting Boston behind the eight ball, Boston wins this series going away. As for the next series we wiped out Philly, only TB might have deserved a better fate, they were tough, but in game 7 we dominated the game just not the score. As for the final, we blew them out in all 4 of our wins and easily could have won the 3 that we lost. We clearly were the much better team then the so called mighty Canucks. You can keep on kidding yourself that you think Boston will fade into oblivion, but I hate to break it to you, but this team is going to be a strong Cup contender for years, we are young, talented, not cap strung like some teams, and now have the confidence.

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08-03-2011, 05:34 PM
  #177
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The "experts" generally make their predictions on hype rather than analysis, so they're generally laughable. But in this case, it was not a hard prediction to make. Ottawa was a giant question mark, Buffalo was riding goaltending, Montreal even more (they were two goalies away from being Edmonton in 2009-2010), and Toronto was Toronto, which was and still is crap. It was not a difficult prediction, but it was not due to Boston being a Cup Contender (which, IMO, they weren't), it was due to playing in a crap division.

On that note, did anyone predict the Bruins would go from the lowest-scoring team in the league to the 5th-highest? No, and it was a swing done almost entirely by riding shooting percentage. Meanwhile Montreal unexpectedly turned their game 180 degrees, but fell afoul to the same "lack-of-opportunism" malady that the Bruins did last year.



They have not. They've been fortunate that their shots have gone in (which, again, they didn't all year last year) and their goalies stood on their head. Otherwise, Boston was a pedestrian puck-possession team at even-strength.

Their playoff progression was about as unimpressive as you can get while winning the Cup -- they needed three game 7s to make it, so it's not like they were dominant, hmm? They were outplayed and outscored by Montreal, and escaped on 3 OT wins out of 4 in a 7-game series. They escaped Tampa in 7 games, desptie Tampa being clearly superior everywhere but the crease; had gotten even AHL-level goaltending from Roloson for the entire series, then Tampa would have won handily. And they faced two goaltending meltdowns in Philly and Luongo (though Luongo's was an odd on-and-off).

They got lucky, basically. Like Montreal in 2009-2010, except Boston was a good team and Montreal was terrible that year. They, and especially their goalie, had the season of their lives. They're not a bad team, but they're a good team that rode good fortune and performance highs. They are not a strong team in the sense that it will lead to consistent, continued success, the way a team like Detroit has. For that, you need to control the puck and outplay your opponents consistently, and that's not what Boston does.
I find you put a little too much emphasis on some of these stats in general, for example shot differential ect. They have the big boys who win battles and score goals in the dirty areas. Call it opportunism, call it what you like. Other than that I generally agree with the content of your post.

I could see the Bruins struggle to make the playoffs this coming year as much I do them winning the division.

Timmy played great, there is no denying that, but I can't help but think the team made thomas, with Halak it was much more apparent the team itself was outmatched.

Lots of teams in the east improved, including divisional rivals, it's gonna be tough for a lot of teams this year.

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08-03-2011, 05:37 PM
  #178
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I think you calling them lucky is unfair, against Montreal overall Boston had the better of the play, 5 on 5 Boston dominated Montreal, only because your PP got red hot was it a series, and as we all know PP's blow hot and cold. Sure we won all 3 OT games, but let's be honest, if it wasn't for Price playing great and Thomas really struggling early in games and putting Boston behind the eight ball, Boston wins this series going away. As for the next series we wiped out Philly, only TB might have deserved a better fate, they were tough, but in game 7 we dominated the game just not the score. As for the final, we blew them out in all 4 of our wins and easily could have won the 3 that we lost. We clearly were the much better team then the so called mighty Canucks. You can keep on kidding yourself that you think Boston will fade into oblivion, but I hate to break it to you, but this team is going to be a strong Cup contender for years, we are young, talented, not cap strung like some teams, and now have the confidence.
Bruins have a good team, let's face it, but for some reason, I am thinking a Cup hangover is gonna happen...drop the puck boys!!!

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08-03-2011, 05:43 PM
  #179
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Just to add to that, I can see the habs scoring more goals just from adding Coles net presence even without necessarily increasing the number of shots/opportunities.

The quality of players matters, I know you argue that shooting % tends to regress to the mean, I'm sure you're in a better position than me to defend this as I haven't really looked at the numbers all that closely.

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08-03-2011, 05:47 PM
  #180
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Bruins have a good team, let's face it, but for some reason, I am thinking a Cup hangover is gonna happen...drop the puck boys!!!
I agree, TT will come down to reality ever so slightly and probably post a more than respectable .925ish sv% and Rask will likely be in the same range, I see him hungrier next year after he has the summer to think about how TT had a bad season, then worked even harder to come back and be rewarded with a cup.

But I think the Bruins lose a step next year but they are still a pretty damn good team.

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08-03-2011, 05:48 PM
  #181
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Bruins have a good team, let's face it, but for some reason, I am thinking a Cup hangover is gonna happen...drop the puck boys!!!
It's quite possible, all I'm saying is that over the next 3-4 years Boston will or should be a serious Cup contender, it is unlikely that they will repeat this year, I do agree with that, but you never know.

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08-03-2011, 06:32 PM
  #182
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thomas is so over-rated it is hilarious. Never seen so many players diving into the net behind him and collapsing into the crease to save him. I wouldn't trade him 1 for 1 for any of those goalies.

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08-03-2011, 06:38 PM
  #183
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I'm not a Habs fan... So I don't have homer glasses or a favorite in player. In fact, I dislike them all equally as much.
As a Bruins fan, I can say when we think Habs game-changer, we don't think PK Subban. We think Price. I watch every Bruins game, so I've seen the two of them play quite a few times, and Price is the guy we think is going to swing a a game in the Habs favor. From what I've seen, Habs fans view Chara as the guy on the Bruins they don't like to see on the other team. Bruins fans dont like to see Price in net. Subban, from what I've seen, is an offensive threat with very little toughness. Offensive defensemen are all well and good, but to be a top 5 in the league type of guy he's got a long way to go imo. Carey Price is there already.
Sigh, how many games of Subban have you seen... around 13 I guess. Here's a game changer for you. Game 7 Habs-Bruins, end of the third, who sends the game to overtime....

If you would have watched Subban against Crosby and Malkin in the 2010 playoffs, you wouldn't call him an offensive dman (shows how little you know about him). BTW, among Dmen with 20+ min per game, Subban finished 4th for GAA on the penalty kill (that's 101 dmen who played at least 34 games and over 20 minutes)... You might say that was because of Price, yet, Subban was had the best PK GAA on the Habs, well in front of Gill and Gorges who are commonly referred to as our best PKers by Habs fans, while essentially playing just a little less than they did on average over the season, normalized stats, but if you look at the last 40 games of the season, Subban was both great defensively and offensively and played the most minutes on the PK with Gill, went against the top lines at ES, played between 25-30 minutes for most of his last 40 games.

And saying Subban has little toughness, again shows how little you know about him.

That last bolded part is just ridiculous. Price has 4 seasons under his belt, Subban has one. That should be kinda obvious. 4 seasons ago, I saw Price going towards where he is now. I was right about him, and I doubt I'll be wrong about PK.

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And that nonsense about 50 goalies vs 200 defensemen is exactly that. That's like trying to say the twentieth best defenseman, if he were around Price's age, would be a straight swap. Not a chance. Price is going to be the player the Bruins fans hate to face for a long time. Subban will just be the guy they hate.
I never talked about a swap, put on your reading glasses, I was talking of worth to our team, and complete Dman are the key to success in today's NHL. BTW, I am not inventing this. Bowman said this, but you probably know better than he does...

Come back to post here in 2-3 years from now... we'll see who was right.

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08-03-2011, 06:40 PM
  #184
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thomas is so over-rated it is hilarious. Never seen so many players diving into the net behind him and collapsing into the crease to save him. I wouldn't trade him 1 for 1 for any of those goalies.
The dude won the Conn Smythe and Vezina.

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08-03-2011, 06:46 PM
  #185
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The dude won the Conn Smythe and Vezina.
Big deal, Carey and Theodore won a vezina too. Hence him being over-rated, the guy lost the starting position to rask last year and looks like a buffoon everytime we play him. If bostons defense wasn't in a state of constant crease collapse I wonder how well they would have done.

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08-03-2011, 06:53 PM
  #186
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Sigh, how many games of Subban have you seen... around 13 I guess. Here's a game changer for you. Game 7 Habs-Bruins, end of the third, who sends the game to overtime....

If you would have watched Subban against Crosby and Malkin in the 2010 playoffs, you wouldn't call him an offensive dman (shows how little you know about him). BTW, among Dmen with 20+ min per game, Subban finished 4th for GAA on the penalty kill (that's 101 dmen who played at least 34 games and over 20 minutes)... You might say that was because of Price, yet, Subban was had the best PK GAA on the Habs, well in front of Gill and Gorges who are commonly referred to as our best PKers by Habs fans, while essentially playing just a little less than they did on average over the season, normalized stats, but if you look at the last 40 games of the season, Subban was both great defensively and offensively and played the most minutes on the PK with Gill, went against the top lines at ES, played between 25-30 minutes for most of his last 40 games.

And saying Subban has little toughness, again shows how little you know about him.

That last bolded part is just ridiculous. Price has 4 seasons under his belt, Subban has one.



I never talked about a swap, put on your reading glasses, I was talking of worth to our team, and complete Dman are the key to success in today's NHL. BTW, I am not inventing this. Bowman said this, but you probably know better than he does...

Come back to post here in 2-3 years from now... we'll see who was right.
Living in Montreal I watch more Habs games than Bruins games actually I watch them all except for friday and Saturday games as I work those nights and I'm not Interseted enough to record them unless the Bruins are involved of course,Subban has no toughness what so ever,quite the coward IMHO,for a player who played close to 30 min. in several games the stats are good but not amazing either.If you think of it ,he played about the equivalent of 110 games ice time wise .With that in mind and pro rated to 82 games he would have registed about 29 points ,which again is good but not amazing for a dman who's defence is fair at best ,

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08-03-2011, 07:04 PM
  #187
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Living in Montreal I watch more Habs games than Bruins games actually I watch them all except for friday and Saturday games as I work those nights and I'm not Interseted enough to record them unless the Bruins are involved of course,Subban has no toughness what so ever,quite the coward IMHO,for a player who played close to 30 min. in several games the stats are good but not amazing either.If you think of it ,he played about the equivalent of 110 games ice time wise .With that in mind and pro rated to 82 games he would have registed about 29 points ,which again is good but not amazing for a dman who's defence is fair at best ,
He averaged just over 22 minutes per game in 2010-11.

There is an old saying that goes like this:

"It is better to be quiet and thought a fool than to speak and remove any doubt."

Goes for the internet, too.

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08-03-2011, 07:10 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by JOKER 192 View Post
Living in Montreal I watch more Habs games than Bruins games actually I watch them all except for friday and Saturday games as I work those nights and I'm not Interseted enough to record them unless the Bruins are involved of course,Subban has no toughness what so ever,quite the coward IMHO,for a player who played close to 30 min. in several games the stats are good but not amazing either.If you think of it ,he played about the equivalent of 110 games ice time wise .With that in mind and pro rated to 82 games he would have registed about 29 points ,which again is good but not amazing for a dman who's defence is fair at best ,
This is absurd. The claim that Subban played the 'equivalent of 110 games ice time wise' is bizarre, and the unsubstantiated commentary on Subban being quite the coward is not going to change any fans' minds on him.

What's the point in going through all of this on the Hab forum, anyway, if your sole purpose seems to be to degrade a player's abilities?

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08-03-2011, 07:16 PM
  #189
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This is absurd. The claim that Subban played the 'equivalent of 110 games ice time wise' is bizarre, and the unsubstantiated commentary on Subban being quite the coward is not going to change any fans' minds on him.

What's the point in going through all of this on the Hab forum, anyway, if your sole purpose seems to be to degrade a player's abilities?
I have always said he's a good player what I disagree with is that he is an elite player,that said ,even on the Bruins board I have the same discussions,I just don't see the elite skills.22 minutes is more than most dmen get so while the better dmen do get similar time thier stas need to be prorated to what the average is and yes that does include Chara.

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08-03-2011, 07:19 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by icerocket
The dude won the Conn Smythe and Vezina.

Big deal, Carey and Theodore won a vezina too. Hence him being over-rated, the guy lost the starting position to rask last year and looks like a buffoon everytime we play him. If bostons defense wasn't in a state of constant crease collapse I wonder how well they would have done.
Thomas has won 2 of the last 3 Vezina's, the only year he didn't win he was injured. Regarding Rask, I strongly suspect if he was playing on a regular basis, he would be in the conversation for the NHL's top 7-8 goalies.


Last edited by Mike8: 08-03-2011 at 07:27 PM. Reason: removed personal remark
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08-03-2011, 07:21 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by JOKER 192 View Post
Living in Montreal I watch more Habs games than Bruins games actually I watch them all except for friday and Saturday games as I work those nights and I'm not Interseted enough to record them unless the Bruins are involved of course,Subban has no toughness what so ever,quite the coward IMHO,for a player who played close to 30 min. in several games the stats are good but not amazing either.If you think of it ,he played about the equivalent of 110 games ice time wise .With that in mind and pro rated to 82 games he would have registed about 29 points ,which again is good but not amazing for a dman who's defence is fair at best ,
The funny thing is, he registered close to 29 points, IN THOSE 40 last games of the season where he played 25-30 minutes, and without him, Price would've said buhbye to his top 5 goalie status.

I highly doubt you watched that much of Subban yet know so little about him, and talking of doubt, I'll never trust the bias of a Montreal Bruins fan. I know several of your kind, and they usually don't know their hockey all too well

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08-03-2011, 07:25 PM
  #192
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I have to admit the guy has some serious swag. I'm far from a Tim Thomas basher. Only reason I personally don't like him is he's a Bruin This is war!

But seriously I think it's dumb for people to say he isn't #1 right now and I've already said that. I don't see how people even the biggest homers like me can't see that. And I've made many homer comments in this very thread to back up that. But frankly Tim Thomas pulled off something great and I think it's pretty sad that some people around here try to down play the success he had. Chara and Seidenberg are the only legit top 4 D on the Bruins. Yes they have good two-way forwards. At the end of the day 30 minutes a game you had sub top 4 defenseman on the ice. Thomas did have to make crucial saves and they won the cup largely because of his stellar play. You don't win 3 game 7's en route to the cup and make the claim your goalie wasn't a big part of that.

And finally even if system did play a big part I saw the Vancouver series with my own eyes. Thomas saved that series. Does that mean other players didn't chip in? Of course not. But there really is no denying how amazing Thomas was this year. And I find it pretty sad that people try to deny that. Give the guy a little more respect just because he plays for the B's it doesn't make him deserving of that

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08-03-2011, 07:25 PM
  #193
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I have always said he's a good player what I disagree with is that he is an elite player,that said ,even on the Bruins board I have the same discussions,I just don't see the elite skills.22 minutes is more than most dmen get so while the better dmen do get similar time thier stas need to be prorated to what the average is and yes that does include Chara.
No, no, no. Stats do not need to be prorated just because someone plays more than average. First, that's one of the more peculiar assertions I've ever heard. Who taught you this? Second, the more important component is that the coach trusts said player with greater than average minutes. Third, a vastly more important component is that if one is playing increased minutes, chances are those minutes are coming against tougher competition. Consequently, if you want to grade those players like Chara, Markov, et al., and 'prorate' them to account for their increased minutes, you'll be showing them in a better light due to the fact that they play tougher minutes (against stiffer competition).

Whether you see elite talent levels in Subban or not is largely irrelevant. They're there. He's put them on display at the world junior stage. He's done it on the playoff stage. And he's had success at both. Puck carrying defensemen who can skate, are malleable to a coach's instructions, and can learn as quickly as Subban's learning curve have been are a rarity, whether you're aware of the existence of this or not. Whether that constitutes 'elite' or not is equally irrelevant: he's a core and impact player at a young age, and that alone is impressive.

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08-03-2011, 07:30 PM
  #194
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No, no, no. Stats do not need to be prorated just because someone plays more than average. First, that's one of the more peculiar assertions I've ever heard. Who taught you this? Second, the more important component is that the coach trusts said player with greater than average minutes. Third, a vastly more important component is that if one is playing increased minutes, chances are those minutes are coming against tougher competition. Consequently, if you want to grade those players like Chara, Markov, et al., and 'prorate' them to account for their increased minutes, you'll be showing them in a better light due to the fact that they play tougher minutes (against stiffer competition).

Whether you see elite talent levels in Subban or not is largely irrelevant. They're there. He's put them on display at the world junior stage. He's done it on the playoff stage. And he's had success at both. Puck carrying defensemen who can skate, are malleable to a coach's instructions, and can learn as quickly as Subban's learning curve have been are a rarity, whether you're aware of the existence of this or not. Whether that constitutes 'elite' or not is equally irrelevant: he's a core and impact player at a young age, and that alone is impressive.
You have your opinion I have mine .What makes yours better?

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08-03-2011, 07:32 PM
  #195
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You have your opinion I have mine .What makes yours better?
Because he actually brings arguments that hold some ground, unlike you, who keep bringing up stuff that is either inaccurate, or completely off-track.

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08-03-2011, 07:32 PM
  #196
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As a Bruins fan I have been watching Subban since his days in Belleville, loved him them, of course now not so much. His talent is undeniable, once he matures and gains more experience, the guy will be a superstar, he's not their yet, but barring something unforseen happening, it will happen. The guy at times drives me nuts, but he is totally entertaining and it's guys like him who make the Boston-Montreal rivalry fun.

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08-03-2011, 07:34 PM
  #197
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As a Bruins fan I have been watching Subban since his days in Belleville, loved him them, of course now not so much. His talent is undeniable, once he matures and gains more experience, the guy will be a superstar, he's not their yet, but barring something unforseen happening, it will happen. The guy at times drives me nuts, but he is totally entertaining and it's guys like him who make the Boston-Montreal rivalry fun.
So I'm not the only one who sees him as a future league-wide top 5 D...

And not a Habs fan to boot...

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08-03-2011, 07:36 PM
  #198
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You have your opinion I have mine .What makes yours better?
I don't know what school you went to, but you ought to have been taught that not every opinion is equal.

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08-03-2011, 07:36 PM
  #199
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Because he actually brings arguments that hold some ground, unlike you, who keep bringing up stuff that is either inaccurate, or completely off-track.
pffft, noobs these days.

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08-03-2011, 07:38 PM
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Because he actually brings arguments that hold some ground, unlike you, who keep bringing up stuff that is either inaccurate, or completely off-track.
Same answer.

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