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08-03-2011, 07:40 PM
  #201
JOKER 192
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post

I don't know what school you went to, but you ought to have been taught that not every opinion is equal.
Really I thought my vote was just as important as yours, or is this Cuba,

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08-03-2011, 07:44 PM
  #202
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Really I thought my vote was just as important as yours, or is this Cuba,
What are we voting on, anyway?

Back on track here. In all seriousness, no, I don't think it's a matter of opinion. Subban being very strong on the world junior stage is not up for opinion. His success in the NHL playoffs is not up for opinion: he's been good, and that's been a unanimous opinion. The degree of how good he's been is certainly up for debate, and you're entitled to believe he has not been great, but he's still in the realm of 'good'.

The fact that he's gone from fundamentally-flawed-OHLer to NHLer who's playing top pairing minutes is not up for opinion. Consequently, his fast learning curve is more fact than opinion. (and indeed, this is where my 'opinion' is stronger than that of an unsubstantiated opinion. In other words: if you post some substantiation for your remarks, it might hold weight. Absent such substantiation, it's boring and meaningless to all readers of the forum. In other words, it's a non-starter of a discussion.)

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08-03-2011, 07:45 PM
  #203
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Really I thought my vote was just as important as yours, or is this Cuba,
Doesn't mean you're making an informed decision, or the right vote for that matter. This is not politics. It's hockey, predicated by events and facts, and if someone is blind to them, than his opinion isn't worth much.

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08-03-2011, 07:47 PM
  #204
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So I'm not the only one who sees him as a future league-wide top 5 D...

And not a Habs fan to boot...
I do, but I don't really like to admit it.

When we managed to steal (absolutely flagrant larceny, at that) Beaulieu I literally jumped up and down. The thought of, at the same time, having Beaulieu, a guy who I think will be one of the league's premier D but probably not in anyone's top 10s, and PK, who I would bet some serious cash will sooner rather than later be an undeniable defence superstar...

One thing everyone has to be happy about is the probability of having P.K. and Carey on Team Canada's roster in 2014.

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08-03-2011, 07:48 PM
  #205
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Doesn't mean you're making an informed decision, or the right vote for that matter. This is not politics. It's hockey, predicated by events and facts, and if someone is blind to them, than his opinion isn't worth much.
I guess the way most here view Thomas then,right?

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08-03-2011, 07:48 PM
  #206
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I find you put a little too much emphasis on some of these stats in general, for example shot differential ect.
That's because they are the stats that teams can drive, and make them win consistently.

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They have the big boys who win battles and score goals in the dirty areas. Call it opportunism, call it what you like.
Actually, no offense, but I have to call it making up explanations.

The Bruins are an especially clear example because their shooting percentage has gone low-high-low-high over the last four season, and I don't think they changed their style every year.

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I could see the Bruins struggle to make the playoffs this coming year as much I do them winning the division.
Same here, although the reasonable prediction has them in the 5-6 range and second in the division, IMO. But it's hockey and there's no such thing as a "safe" prediction.

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Timmy played great, there is no denying that, but I can't help but think the team made thomas, with Halak it was much more apparent the team itself was outmatched.
That's not surprising. Montreal was atrocious. Boston is high-event, but they are a decent team.

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Lots of teams in the east improved, including divisional rivals, it's gonna be tough for a lot of teams this year.
Some teams got worse. Philly, for example, hamstrung themselves. Boston more or less stood still. I'm not sure what to make of Buffalo; they handed out a lot of dollars, but mostly to second tier talents like Leino and Erhoff.

There's basically nine teams for eight spots, so one of them will be unhappy -- quite possibly two, because one of the conference minnows is liable to get lucky and slip in.

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08-03-2011, 07:53 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by JOKER 192 View Post
Same answer.
You can argue your opinon that a banana is red all you want, it won't change the fact that this banana is yellow.

Opinions alone are worthless. An opinion that is substantiated by facts is actually worth something.

So yeah, let's not take account of the arguments that form people's opinions, it doesn't matter, because hey, opinions rule, no matter how little ground they hold.

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I guess the way most here view Thomas then,right?
Undoubtedly. Problem is, most of the people you are arguing over Subban with, aren't the same people you are arguing about Thomas.

That's called a red-herring. It's a debate cop-out.


Last edited by Mike8: 08-03-2011 at 07:57 PM. Reason: merge
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08-03-2011, 07:57 PM
  #208
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I think you calling them lucky is unfair
I call it like I see it. They were lucky, same way Montreal was lucky last year.

Any team that wins the Cup is lucky. Some teams need more luck than others, but even for the best team in the league, the odds are against you at the start of the playoffs.

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against Montreal overall Boston had the better of the play, 5 on 5 Boston dominated Montreal, only because your PP got red hot was it a series
Montreal outplayed Boston overall, and especially in games 1-5 (Boston did dominate games 6 and 7 once Montreal ran out of bodies). Montreal actually controlled the play more 5-on-5, especially with the score tied when neither team was motivated to sit back.

The main reason Boston ended up outscoring Montreal so much at evens is because Thomas stood on his head. And the main reason Boston didn't score on the PP is Price standing on his head there. But Montreal was the better club for most of the series. They even ended up with one more goal than Boston, or tied if you count the empty-netter. They also had a 3-1-3 record for the series.

And that wasn't even the worst. Tampa didn't "maybe deserve a better fate". They utterly crushed the Bruins. Roloson blew it for them.

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I hate to break it to you, but this team is going to be a strong Cup contender for years, we are young, talented, not cap strung like some teams, and now have the confidence.
We'll see, but I doubt it. They don't have much depth, especially on D. Their second pairing D-men would be third-pairing D-men on many playoff teams, including Montreal. While it's fine to enjoy a fantastic year, I think you may need to step back a bit and re-assess the amount of talent on the Bruins club. It is not a bad team by any stretch, but it's not an elite club either.

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08-03-2011, 08:04 PM
  #209
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What are we voting on, anyway?

Back on track here. In all seriousness, no, I don't think it's a matter of opinion. Subban being very strong on the world junior stage is not up for opinion. His success in the NHL playoffs is not up for opinion: he's been good, and that's been a unanimous opinion. The degree of how good he's been is certainly up for debate, and you're entitled to believe he has not been great, but he's still in the realm of 'good'.

The fact that he's gone from fundamentally-flawed-OHLer to NHLer who's playing top pairing minutes is not up for opinion. Consequently, his fast learning curve is more fact than opinion. (and indeed, this is where my 'opinion' is stronger than that of an unsubstantiated opinion. In other words: if you post some substantiation for your remarks, it might hold weight. Absent such substantiation, it's boring and meaningless to all readers of the forum. In other words, it's a non-starter of a discussion.)
First of all I have already said I think he's good,but hereis an interseting question ,do you think he would have played those minutes on let's say the Bruins team,I would doubt it,I would think CJ would have very little patience for his kind,and let us not forget . He got his minues by default ,because of injuries rather than actual merit.If you choose to see this opinion as boring ,well that is your porogative but it doesn't make it false. I also noticed no one touched Thomas one .

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08-03-2011, 08:11 PM
  #210
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First of all I have already said I think he's good,but hereis an interseting question ,do you think he would have played those minutes on let's say the Bruins team,I would doubt it,I would think CJ would have very little patience for his kind
What, skilled players?

Unless you're saying "borderline pests who polarize other teams", in which case you're being ridiculous. Because I can remember a certain nose on skates who seemed to get plenty of ice time with you, and I hear the same stuff about him as I do about P.K.

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,and let us not forget . He got his minues by default ,because of injuries rather than actual merit.
A team lightly utilizes a rookie, lightly easing him into NHL minutes in his first full season until he's required to play bigger minutes due to injuries? I knew Martin had some wacky concepts, but this is crazy!

If you can't clearly see that he earned his spot on the 11-12 roster based on his stellar performance last season, then you're not capable of making a reasonable judgment about it. Period. His performance was excellent, which is an empirical fact beyond opinion.

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08-03-2011, 08:13 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by JOKER 192 View Post
First of all I have already said I think he's good,but hereis an interseting question ,do you think he would have played those minutes on let's say the Bruins team,I would doubt it,I would think CJ would have very little patience for his kind,and let us not forget . He got his minues by default ,because of injuries rather than actual merit.If you choose to see this opinion as boring ,well that is your porogative but it doesn't make it false. I also noticed no one touched Thomas one .
What's to say about Thomas? I haven't written anything about him before, so I have nothing to say.

I think Subban would play big minutes in Boston, and would have made the Kaberle trade unnecessary. On a defense group that lacks some mobility, I think Subban is quite easily ahead of Boychuk, McQuaid, Ference, and whoever else (Kaberle, Kampfer). That puts him in the top 3.

At this point, you're speculating ("injuries! Other teams!") and that's not evidence. We're looking at what he's done here. As far as finding your opinion boring: that's not personal. Any opinion stated without any evidence, thought or substantiation is boring because it doesn't tell us anything. The purpose of a discussion is to bring something new to the table; that's what makes it interesting. Absent that, it's a circular discussion and mind-numbing. So, again, not personal.

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08-03-2011, 08:25 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by matCH penalty View Post
What, skilled players?

Unless you're saying "borderline pests who polarize other teams", in which case you're being ridiculous. Because I can remember a certain nose on skates who seemed to get plenty of ice time with you, and I hear the same stuff about him as I do about P.K.



A team lightly utilizes a rookie, lightly easing him into NHL minutes in his first full season until he's required to play bigger minutes due to injuries? I knew Martin had some wacky concepts, but this is crazy!

If you can't clearly see that he earned his spot on the 11-12 roster based on his stellar performance last season, then you're not capable of making a reasonable judgment about it. Period. His performance was excellent, which is an empirical fact beyond opinion.
I can't really say what I think Subban is here ,last time I did that I was banned for a month so lesson learned,I won't take the bait but moving on ,a team uses a rookie like u say usually unless thier top two are injured.To finish if I don't agree with your opinion that doesn't make me incapable of reasonable judgement ,I wouldn't have him on the Bruins for all the tea in China ,if he was ever traded to the Bruins (thank god that won't happen )I would honestly turn my back on the bruins the only team I have ever cheered for,but that would break the camels back.

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08-03-2011, 08:32 PM
  #213
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I can't really say what I think Subban is here ,last time I did that I was banned for a month so lesson learned
By all means!

Seriously, however. Say what you think about Marchand, then. I'd absolutely love to hear how they're completely different players who are entirely incomparable in every respect (or lack of respect, as it were ), and why fans of teams other than ours always seem to discuss the two simultaneously.

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To finish if I don't agree with your opinion that doesn't make me incapable of reasonable judgement
"I can properly judge a player, as I have a level-headed view of the NHL hockey landscape! "

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,I wouldn't have him on the Bruins for all the tea in China ,if he was ever traded to the Bruins I would honestly turn my back on the bruins the only team I have ever cheered for
"However, I would overreact in an emotional tempest should this player be traded to my team, due to my extremely low opinion of him! But he's not that great for entirely different reasons."

Yeah, alright.

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Would it be crazy to say that if Chara and Sidenberg were injured then ,Boychuck would get Subban like minutesI would have to think that,that is exactly what would happen ,Does that make Boychuck a first liner ........hell u answer that 1.
Unlike you, I don't think highly enough of my hockey knowledge to attempt to condescendingly lecture fans of other teams about their players, coaching system, or line setup.


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08-03-2011, 08:33 PM
  #214
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Would it be crazy to say that if Chara and Sidenberg were injured then ,Boychuck would get Subban like minutesI would have to think that,that is exactly what would happen ,Does that make Boychuck a first liner ........hell u answer that 1.

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08-03-2011, 08:43 PM
  #215
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Would it be crazy to say that if Chara and Sidenberg were injured then ,Boychuck would get Subban like minutesI would have to think that,that is exactly what would happen ,Does that make Boychuck a first liner ........hell u answer that 1.
Not if he doesn't perform as one. Problem for you is that Subban did perform, that's a fact easily proven, not an opinion. Deal with it.

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08-03-2011, 08:45 PM
  #216
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I can't really say what I think Subban is here , last time I did that I was banned for a month so lesson learned
Are you saying you have a negative bias towards Subban... I'm utterly shocked!

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08-03-2011, 08:48 PM
  #217
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I could see Bryzgalov and Vokoun moving up to around 5 if they do well on their respective teams this year. Both coming onto new teams with a lot of potential.

Vokoun makes the Caps a serious contender in the East.

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08-03-2011, 08:48 PM
  #218
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On the icetime question: Montreal has a great deal of D depth, especially after trading for Wisnievski during the season -- more so than Boston. So while losing two top-4 D-men might force the Bruins to give Boychuk excessive minutes, the Habs had other options.

So at the end of the season, Montreal had Hamrlik, Wisnievski, Spacek and Gill available, plus other veterans and still Subban was the #1 D-man. He was playing first-pairing minutes, and carrying Hal Gill, because he was that good. If he wasn't, Hamrlik-Wisnievski would have gotten those minutes, as indeed they did previously. Subban just outplayed them.

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08-03-2011, 08:49 PM
  #219
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Vokoun makes the Caps a serious contender in the East.
The Caps were serious contenders before they added Vokoun. Vokoun makes them runaway favorites. Heck, they were probably the favorites before they added him.

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08-03-2011, 08:54 PM
  #220
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I could see Bryzgalov and Vokoun moving up to around 5 if they do well on their respective teams this year. Both coming onto new teams with a lot of potential.

Vokoun makes the Caps a serious contender in the East.
I think Vokoun is going to put up some stupid numbers in DC and lead them triumphantly into an unforgettable season, including the cup. In the next 2-3 years, I imagine we'll be calling him the best goalie. Assuming Boudreau doesn't send the whole works into the Potomac with his skullduggery.

Bryzgalov heff a chance, but he's not like Vokoun. He's not as talented, for one, and he's also not just slipping into a team already in progress. Philly could be a mess. Bryz might put on a good show of his skills, but I doubt it'll be as smooth.

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08-03-2011, 09:01 PM
  #221
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The Caps were serious contenders before they added Vokoun. Vokoun makes them runaway favorites. Heck, they were probably the favorites before they added him.
Careful, or the fans here will be telling you how Mike Green sucks and Ovechkin chokes in the playoffs.

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08-03-2011, 09:23 PM
  #222
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Are you saying you have a negative bias towards Subban... I'm utterly shocked!
Nope just saying I'm not a fan,everything I dislike in a player.

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08-03-2011, 09:30 PM
  #223
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Considering we've gotten way off the topic of Price and his ranking in relation to other goalies in the list, and before this generates into even further bickering, I think we're done here.

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