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Unproven but huge potential > proven stars?

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Old
08-04-2011, 09:27 AM
  #126
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanSinceBirth View Post
Who cares about Hartnell's NTC? Go ask Gagne how his NTC worked out for him. And as far as not getting a good return for Carle, maybe you can talk to Versteeg about what he got traded for. Plain and simple there was a team full of people to choose from in the trade options. They chose the ones they wanted and they chose correctly.
Time is necessary before you can make such a judgement. If your team fails to make or compete well in the playoffs, then the wrong choice was made. If you seriously compete for or win a Cup, the right choice was made.

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08-04-2011, 09:51 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I don't like the Flyers.

I don't agree with most of what Shafer says, usually.

He is right about Richards in that Montreal series. The impact a player has on a series is not necessarily only obvious in points totals.

As far as the current topic: The Flyers gave away key components of a Cup contending team that they didn't necessarily need to give away. Bryzgalov was the only thing missing from the last two playoff runs for the Flyers to win at least one Cup. Rather than people believe Richards and Carter were these huge locker room cancers, believe that a team rotating 3 goalies in a single playoff series is what hurt the Flyers. When your team has no confidence in their goalie, and that seemed quite obvious on the ice, then you are just going to lose.

I think that Philly received a lot of tremendous potential for the future that could help this team down the road. It also seems likely that Philly took a step backwards to do so. Your team with Carter, Richards and Bryzgaov, even without Leino, would be far more terrifying to meet in the playoffs. Right now? You are a good team that looks like it can be beat more easily than otherwise based on the trades.

Of course, that is why we play the games! Let the season begin, already!!
The flyers downfall began way before the playoffs... Something in the locker room must have been wrong.

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08-04-2011, 10:04 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by StandingCow View Post
The flyers downfall began way before the playoffs... Something in the locker room must have been wrong.
Our best D being hurt might have had something to do with it. Key players playing a LOT of hockey over the course of the proceeding year might have had something to do with it. The goalie play declining in the second half may ave had something to do with it.

There are a lot of on ice factors that could contribute to a decline before we get to the locker room.

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08-04-2011, 10:09 AM
  #129
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Our best D being hurt might have had something to do with it. Key players playing a LOT of hockey over the course of the proceeding year might have had something to do with it. The goalie play declining in the second half may ave had something to do with it.

There are a lot of on ice factors that could contribute to a decline before we get to the locker room.
Could be... I am not one of the ones convinced that it was the locker room... But I'm not gonna totally dismiss it either. Might be a mixture of both.

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08-04-2011, 10:34 AM
  #130
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Could be... I am not one of the ones convinced that it was the locker room... But I'm not gonna totally dismiss it either. Might be a mixture of both.
I mean, we lost to the Cup champs in the second rd without Pronger, Timonen playing on 1.5 legs, and goalie stupidity.

I really dont think it's a mystery why things were a struggle the second half.

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08-04-2011, 10:57 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I mean, we lost to the Cup champs in the second rd without Pronger, Timonen playing on 1.5 legs, and goalie stupidity.

I really dont think it's a mystery why things were a struggle the second half.
I'm talkin reg season not playoffs... We were rubbish since the allstar break

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08-04-2011, 10:59 AM
  #132
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I used the buyout calculator on capgeek, but it seems to be a bit weird at the moment.

If we bought out pronger, do we really stay on the hook for all of his caphit?

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08-04-2011, 11:05 AM
  #133
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injuries are no excuse for lack of production in Philly. A player could go out with a compound fracture of the leg and if he doesnt score he is a bum.
It amazes me the amount of people who either refuse to or they just completely ignore when a player is clearly playing hurt and because of that hes not producing.
So either a player is a bum for not producing while playing hurt, or hes a ***** because he finally sits out.

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08-04-2011, 11:08 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by StandingCow View Post
I'm talkin reg season not playoffs... We were rubbish since the allstar break
Me too. Timonen was clearly hurting, Pronger was out a lot, and the goalie play fell off some. The Briere line came back to earth, to boot. Only thing keeping the team going for a bit was the Giroux-Carter tandem.

As said, I don't think the problems were really all that mysterious. The PP wasn't quite right the entire year, so when ES play began to waffle... There ya go.

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08-04-2011, 11:11 AM
  #135
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I can't understand why the powerplay was so bad all year. To go from the best to worst in one year was something spectacular.

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08-04-2011, 11:17 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I can't understand why the powerplay was so bad all year. To go from the best to worst in one year was something spectacular.
Pronger being out had a big impact, as it was decent with him. Losing Pronger meant more Carle, and Carle is terrible on the PP. I think the expanded role of Giroux hurt the PP because we had too many cooks in the kitchen a bit too much. Richards PP goals fell from 13 to 5, which was at least partially a byproduct of his wrist injury you would assume, and Briere just hasn't been as effective as desired for a couple years now.

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08-04-2011, 11:18 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I used the buyout calculator on capgeek, but it seems to be a bit weird at the moment.

If we bought out pronger, do we really stay on the hook for all of his caphit?
Yes. He is a 35+ contract. The only thing a buyout does is save the team cash, not cap hit.

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08-04-2011, 11:33 AM
  #138
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Yes. He is a 35+ contract. The only thing a buyout does is save the team cash, not cap hit.
Which is why the team would do the opposite of that and put him on LTIR (no cap hit, but salary to be paid)

Cap problems aren't an issue for us (for once lol)

When timonen/hartnell are done we get 10.5 mil right there lol...what if we went after weber +suter with that money (and carles salary too)

14 mil for weber/suter 8 years!

We'd have the sickest defense in the NHL again...

Suter weber
coburn pronger
Meszaros prospect

Bryzgalov

That'd make us perennial contenders for the next 6year years easily

(All starts with getting suter from UFA, and luring weber here next year UFA...or trading for his rights. Waiting for weber might be better, given kimmos contract length)

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08-04-2011, 11:58 AM
  #139
malfeasance
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Which is why the team would do the opposite of that and put him on LTIR (no cap hit, but salary to be paid)

Cap problems aren't an issue for us (for once lol)

When timonen/hartnell are done we get 10.5 mil right there lol...what if we went after weber +suter with that money (and carles salary too)

14 mil for weber/suter 8 years!

We'd have the sickest defense in the NHL again...

Suter weber
coburn pronger
Meszaros prospect

Bryzgalov

That'd make us perennial contenders for the next 6year years easily

(All starts with getting suter from UFA, and luring weber here next year UFA...or trading for his rights. Waiting for weber might be better, given kimmos contract length)
I'll have whatever he/she is huffing

good lord

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08-04-2011, 12:11 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by malfeasance View Post
I'll have whatever he/she is huffing

good lord
No kidding. Once again, people treat LTIR as if it's a luxury when in fact it's a last resort. In addition to that, medical proof has to be given that shows the player is unfit to play. If Pronger or Bryz decide they've lost their fire in a few years, Bryz can retire (no cap hit) but if Pronger retires the cap hit remains. Or, if Bryz starts to go DiPietro on us but wants to make every cent of those final years, we're going to have to suck it up and pay him, as well as accept the cap hit.

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08-04-2011, 12:32 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Our best D being hurt might have had something to do with it. Key players playing a LOT of hockey over the course of the proceeding year might have had something to do with it. The goalie play declining in the second half may ave had something to do with it.

There are a lot of on ice factors that could contribute to a decline before we get to the locker room.
There was more to this then poor play. You don't sign Jeff Carter to a lifetime contract in November and then jettison him away 7 months later because they lost a playoff series. Clearly, these moves (Carter and Richards) weren't hockey related.

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08-04-2011, 01:06 PM
  #142
MsWoof
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
There was more to this then poor play. You don't sign Jeff Carter to a lifetime contract in November and then jettison him away 7 months later because they lost a playoff series. Clearly, these moves (Carter and Richards) weren't hockey related.
Oh goody, let's turn this into a Richards/Carter thread cause there aren't enough already!

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08-04-2011, 01:44 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Which is why the team would do the opposite of that and put him on LTIR (no cap hit, but salary to be paid)

Cap problems aren't an issue for us (for once lol)

When timonen/hartnell are done we get 10.5 mil right there lol...what if we went after weber +suter with that money (and carles salary too)

14 mil for weber/suter 8 years!

We'd have the sickest defense in the NHL again...

Suter weber
coburn pronger
Meszaros prospect

Bryzgalov

That'd make us perennial contenders for the next 6year years easily

(All starts with getting suter from UFA, and luring weber here next year UFA...or trading for his rights. Waiting for weber might be better, given kimmos contract length)
You realise that by subtracting Hartnell and Kimmo you have to replace them right.

Replacement - Briere - Replacement
JVR - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Couturier - Schenn
Talbot - Holmstrom - Sestito

You just gave away the replacement money in Suter and Weber.

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08-04-2011, 01:45 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Oh goody, let's turn this into a Richards/Carter thread cause there aren't enough already!
I guess he should just pretend that he doesn't think it was an issue, or at least bite his tongue, for the sake of people who find the conversation unpleasant? Richards and Carter were huge parts of the team, so them being dealt is going to come up in conversations about just about everything. That's not a surprise or unreasonable. He shouldn't have to ignore the elephant in the room if he doesn't want to.

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08-04-2011, 01:47 PM
  #145
CS
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
You realise that by subtracting Hartnell and Kimmo you have to replace them right.

Replacement - Briere - Replacement
JVR - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Couturier - Schenn
Talbot - Holmstrom - Sestito

You just gave away the replacement money in Suter and Weber.
vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Voracek
Wellwood/Read - Schenn - Briere
Simmonds - Couturier - Nodl
Talbot - Holmstrom - Sestito

Pronger - Meszaros
Weber - Suter
Coburn - Gustafsson

Bryzgalov

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08-04-2011, 01:58 PM
  #146
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Doesn't work capwise

With suter and Weber making 7 each, Reimers payrise ect.

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08-04-2011, 04:39 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
There was more to this then poor play. You don't sign Jeff Carter to a lifetime contract in November and then jettison him away 7 months later because they lost a playoff series. Clearly, these moves (Carter and Richards) weren't hockey related.
Jeff Carter also wasn't a magically different person 7 months later. Let's not act like rationality has been a staple of the Flyers the last few years.

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08-04-2011, 04:41 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Jeff Carter also wasn't a magically different person 7 months later. Let's not act like rationality has been a staple of the Flyers the last few years.
Touche.

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