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Old
08-05-2011, 11:35 AM
  #51
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Leino had signed in Montréal July 1st, habs fans would be praising him. Whatever.

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08-05-2011, 11:37 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Ceux de Montreal View Post
Leino had signed in Montréal July 1st, habs fans would be praising him. Whatever.
At that price for 6 years? Hell no. I did not even want Leino at all.

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08-05-2011, 11:38 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
He has one good year under his belt. I find the term is a gamble. He could improve and be solid or he can easily become a 3rd line guy. I think he'll be fine or even improve, but hard to justify giving that contract and hoping it works out.
You have to consider the circumstances too. He was not a top-6 forward for Philly. He was on that third line playing butter-soft offensive minutes behind Carter and Richards. His offensive production is likely to drop if he's used in a tougher role, such as being the Sabres' #1 center (assuming power-on-power matchups).

The Sabres could elect to deploy him against soft opposition and give him 60%+ offensive zone starts like he had in Philly, but then who takes the toughs besides Roy? What happens on the road?

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Old
08-05-2011, 11:38 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Ceux de Montreal View Post
What's wrong with Leino (apart from his salary)? He was my second pick if we couldnt get Cole. Pretty good 2nd line forward, good hands.
He's never been a 2nd line forward. His only good year was on a super soft minutes line with established strong offensive players in Briere and Hartnell and still was barely above water in possession terms. At 27 years old with one good year in very favorable circumstances all the underlying signs point to him not being very good. Frankly he is a significant downgrade on Connolly, who is a legit 2nd line center in terms of hockey ability.

Ehrhoff is another guy that gets overrated because of strong counting stats in an extremely favourable situation. The last two years he was essentially the Sedin's personal defenseman and last year he along with the Sedin's were heavily used in the offensive zone and took way less defensive faceoffs. That's another guy who looks better than he is due to an extremely favourable situations.

Both Leino and Ehrhoff looked really good because their teams had much better players at their position to take the heavy lifting (Giroux, Carter, Richards for Leino, Hamhius and Bieksa for Ehrhoff). Buffalo doesn't have an abundance of those heavy lifting players to insulate them so they most likely won't be nearly as good.

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08-05-2011, 11:42 AM
  #55
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In all fairness, TTG, the Sabres now have Myers and Regehr to shelter Erhoff with. But Leino, well...

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08-05-2011, 11:42 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by PATCHESx67 View Post
Habs Bruins will always be a huge rivalry.Both teams hate eachother,the fans hate eachother even the city's hate eachother
My friend from Montreal goes on and on about how The Bruins aren't nearly as big of a rival as The Leafs. I was a tad shocked by this seeing I was raised in Boston and was under the assumption it was Bruins vs Habs for the big rivalry.

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Old
08-05-2011, 11:47 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
really?

they've added:
Erhoff
Leino
Regehr
Kotalik (remains to be seen if he stays given that they are over the cap)

to replace:
Montador
Connolly
Butler
grier

imo that's a pretty undeniable upgrade in talent.

add to that Roy's return (health is a ?, not unlike Markov/Gorges/MaxPac whom we are also counting on to return healthy)

and the continued development of young players like Myers (who should benefit greatly playing next to regher), Vanek, Stafford, Ennis & Sekera

and I think it's a pretty -shall we say ambitious?- statement to make to be "unconvinced that they are better than they started with" .

The facts, as I see them, is that the 2011 Sabres are more talented and deeper than the 2010 Sabres. I'd be interested to hear a rational argument to the contrary (i don't think Leino/Erhoff performing worse than they did last year equates to them being less effective than Connolly/Montador, do you?)


I'm all for optimistic thinking, but not at the expense of ignoring pretty substantial evidence... or does your statistical crystal ball forsee that erhoff/leino/regher will all wilt under the pressure of "regression to the mean"
Like the substantial evidence that Myers is inconsistent and might pull a Phaneuf for a few years.

Like the substantial evidence that Regehr is far from the dominant player he was in the 2004 playoffs.

Like the substantial evidence that Ehrhoff was sheltered in Vancouver, like he was in his time with the Sharks, and will have a bigger role with the Sabres, and there's abolutely no evidence that he will strive in a bigger role, and actually, there's proof of the opposite.

Like the substantial evidence that no team in the North-East (if not the entire conference) has a top pairing to match the Habs top pairing.

Like the substantial evidence that Miller has only put up ONE magnificient season so far out of the last 5 seasons.

Like the substantial evidence that Roy and Stafford missed as many games due to injuries last season as Pac and Gorges... With Markov being the only difference in significant injuries... Sekera missed a little less than half the season in 09-10...

Like the substantial evidence that Leino has only one full season under his belt (as does Ennis), and doesn't have the experience a player like Cole has.

Like the substantial evidence that despite having a 9-2 record, Enroth posted a 2,73 GAA and ,907 save %... He could take time to develop... but let's be optimistic ... (but since I'm still waiting for Raask to be a top 5 goalie in the league...)

Like the substantial evidence that Vanek, arguably their best offensive player hasn't put up the same pace in goal scoring as he used to, similarly to Cammalleri.

Like the substantial evidence that Gomez is probable to produce a lot if he plays with Markov and Pac.

Like the substantial evidence that Mathman has been pouring here about shot%.

Fact is, on paper, the two teams are extremely similar. Probably the closest between any Eastern teams, and both have a full set of question marks, like 90-95% of the league do.

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Old
08-05-2011, 11:48 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by HarryI View Post
Montreal still made improvements and finished ahead of Buffalo last year (albeit by a tie-breaker)

They have added:

Markov
Gorges
Cole

To replace:

Wisniewski
Picard
Pouliot

Also getting a healthy Pacioretty and Cammalleri back. Gomez will most likely have a better season as well.
Hamrlik ?
Halpern ?
Pyatt ?

Do fans honestly think Markov is going to get right on the ice and play the way he did two years ago? He had some trouble rounding into form after the cut and missed a couple of games with a bad back or whatever. Now its two knee surgeries later. To be honest I'm not so much worried about his knee as I am about muscles that haven't been tried and tested during a game for quite some time now.

Halpern was a great faceoff guy and the Habs haven't replaced him. Pyatt was an excellent PK'er as was Halpern. Who's taking those minutes? Hamrlik played a ton of minutes and blocked a ton of shots.

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Old
08-05-2011, 11:49 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by SarahRomance View Post
My friend from Montreal goes on and on about how The Bruins aren't nearly as big of a rival as The Leafs. I was a tad shocked by this seeing I was raised in Boston and was under the assumption it was Bruins vs Habs for the big rivalry.
The problem is that the Leafs really haven't been anywhere close to the Habs in the last few years (regardless of what Toronto fans like to think ) so the rivalry lost some of its luster due to its lack of relevance.

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08-05-2011, 11:52 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The problem is that the Leafs really haven't been anywhere close to the Habs in the last few years (regardless of what Toronto fans like to think ) so the rivalry lost some of its luster due to its lack of relevance.
Fair enough, I figured something along those lines. I wasn't sure if it was one of the things Ive dealt with in MN where Vikings fans think their rivals are Green Bay and Green Bay thinks their rivals are The Bears...

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08-05-2011, 11:53 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahRomance View Post
My friend from Montreal goes on and on about how The Bruins aren't nearly as big of a rival as The Leafs. I was a tad shocked by this seeing I was raised in Boston and was under the assumption it was Bruins vs Habs for the big rivalry.
That all depends on what age a person is.

The older they are, the more it's the Leafs, the younger they are, the Bruins.

I like both rivalries as much and hate both team with a passion.

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08-05-2011, 11:53 AM
  #62
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Buffallo is going to be a lot harder to score against. Enroth is a really really good goalie and expect him to play 15-20 games. He's almost as good as Miller imo. I also expect Miller to have a bounce back season after some early injuries last year.

They will struggle a bit up front but with Ruff's coaching, they are going to battle us / Boston for the 1-3rd position. We need to really beat up on Toronto / Ottawa this year for us to have success.

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Old
08-05-2011, 12:01 PM
  #63
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Sabres are a scary team they got better quite abit this year by bolstering their D to high heavens with Regher and Erhoff.

I have my doubts about offense tho, I'm hoping Vanek can pull his **** together because hes a 40 goal scorer.

T.M- RR
C.E - Who cares

Its a solid D line up, but upfront theres a few question marks, but for sure your D with your Goalie will give anyone a run for their money.

Habs will be under dogs this year imo, but will impress, hopefully Emelin with markov and gorges gives us an edge

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08-05-2011, 12:08 PM
  #64
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To the guy above who just said I have my doubt about there offense, read below as well.


Oh and in that season we lost Drury and Briere we still finished 4th in the ENTIRE LEAGUE IN GOALS FOR.



Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Buffallo is going to be a lot harder to score against. Enroth is a really really good goalie and expect him to play 15-20 games. He's almost as good as Miller imo. I also expect Miller to have a bounce back season after some early injuries last year.

They will struggle a bit up front but with Ruff's coaching, they are going to battle us / Boston for the 1-3rd position. We need to really beat up on Toronto / Ottawa this year for us to have success.

Why do you say that? We finished 3rd in the East in goals for last year without Roy, Pominville for the most part?

Now with our signings and being healthy why would we struggle up front?



BTW I talked to Josh two weeks ago at the mall and asked him how he was feeling, he said good. (Gorges) He used to play with my bro so he knows me but I still have to remind him who I am, I was wearing my Stafford Jersey so he kind of remembered (The Sabres fan)


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Old
08-05-2011, 12:10 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Many habs fans also ignore just how good Ehrhoff and Regehr are too though. It's going to be a real crazy season. Obviously one of these three teams won't live up to expectations but oddly enough I think it will be the Bruins.
Could be. The overall upgrade from Butler and Montador to Regehr and Ehrhoff is probably the thing making the Sabres fans most excited. We saw what happened with the downgrade last summer with the losses of Tallinder and Lydman, the hit it put on their ability to get out of their own zone. Health is going to be huge for all three teams and it wouldn't surprise if the Bruins, having played so hard and so long, will take some time to get rolling and may have more injury than the other two. It should be a great race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
He's never been a 2nd line forward. His only good year was on a super soft minutes line with established strong offensive players in Briere and Hartnell and still was barely above water in possession terms. At 27 years old with one good year in very favorable circumstances all the underlying signs point to him not being very good. Frankly he is a significant downgrade on Connolly, who is a legit 2nd line center in terms of hockey ability.
Connolly not being tendered was a telling indicator for them as they have a lack of quality centers. Connolly has the skills but there are some hard questions about his willingness to go into the areas needed to succeed in that role. He was outscored by 3rd and 4th liners like Rob Niedermayer and Cody McCormick at even strength last year, despite getting top 6 icetime with quality linemates. His ratio of 2nd assists was out of whack, one of the largest in the league.

Undoubtedly a gamble, Leino performing as he did for the Flyers, being behind Roy, is viewed in the light of how Connolly floundered as an upgrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Ehrhoff is another guy that gets overrated because of strong counting stats in an extremely favourable situation. The last two years he was essentially the Sedin's personal defenseman and last year he along with the Sedin's were heavily used in the offensive zone and took way less defensive faceoffs. That's another guy who looks better than he is due to an extremely favourable situations.
Ehrhoff took the top number of offensive zone starts for the Canucks. The expectation is that he'll get that sort of time with Buffalo as well, particularly if they have a more up-tempo pairing with him and Leopold. The expectation is for him to be in the 40-point neighborhood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Both Leino and Ehrhoff looked really good because their teams had much better players at their position to take the heavy lifting (Giroux, Carter, Richards for Leino, Hamhius and Bieksa for Ehrhoff). Buffalo doesn't have an abundance of those heavy lifting players to insulate them so they most likely won't be nearly as good.
Myers and Regehr will likely be the top pairing, shielding Ehrhoff-Leopold and Sekera-Weber. Not the quality of Bieksa/Hamhius, but then again, not scrubs either. Leino is the biggest gamble, yet it remains to be seen if he has the same sort of impact that a younger Hecht had -- he's viewed by many in a similar light as Hecht as a glue guy, with puck retention and smart playmaking in tight. If he fails at center, they have someone to replace Hecht's production at a similar cap hit ratio and another summer to hunt for a better option in the middle. Given how well their pro personnel people have done turning up guys who are afterthoughts in other organizations and then how Ruff has done a number on them (Montador in particular recently), cautious optimism is the order of the day.

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Old
08-05-2011, 12:16 PM
  #66
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Overrated. A lot of noise during the UFA season but it's just hype coming from the new owner. Toronto will finish above them IMO

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08-05-2011, 12:17 PM
  #67
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In all fairness, TTG, the Sabres now have Myers and Regehr to shelter Erhoff with. But Leino, well...
He's better insulated that Leino who seems to be penciled in as Buffalo's 2nd center but to give Ehrhoff the kind of shelter he got in Vancouver they'd have to give Myers a significantly tougher assignment (defensive zone starts for the first time in his career). Although he was breakeven as a shutdown pairing with a guy pretty similar to Regher in Tallinder so he can probably handle toughs pretty well.

My other thing on Buffalo is how overhyped Miller has been since the Vezina. He tends to be an above average starter not the top 5 netminder he's made out to be. Like Kippersof in Calgary his reputation is inflated by how the coach doesn't trust the backup to play and he ends up with a huge amount of games played which inflates his win totals.

Buffalo has pretty good team but their fans seem to be going through a hubris period after the big name additions. The top 3 in the NE are close enough that the winner will be determined by random factors like injuries and shooting luck that are impossible to predict.

I do like Montreal's chances better than the others largely due to being both the strongest possession team with also the best special teams and strong goaltending. In particular, having two number one caliber defensemen in Markov and Subban elevates Montreal over the others.

To anyone objecting to Subban as a number one, towards the end of the year playing with Gill as a partner Subban was used in with a negative zone start (48% O-zone start percentage) against top opposition and out scoring chanced the opposition by 57 to 43 per hundred (57% chance%). When playing against top-level players those are elite numbers and was with Gill who no one would consider a stud two-way defenseman. Gill-Subban and Markov-Gorges are on paper two top pairings.

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Old
08-05-2011, 12:18 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by SabresFan44 View Post
To the guy above who just said I have my doubt about there offense, read below as well.


Oh and in that season we lost Drury and Briere we still finished 4th in the ENTIRE LEAGUE IN GOALS FOR.






Why do you say that? We finished 3rd in the East in goals for last year without Roy, Pominville for the most part?

Now with our signings and being healthy why would we struggle up front?


Why you get mad? you asked for opinions..you get them...

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08-05-2011, 12:18 PM
  #69
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Overrated. A lot of noise during the UFA season but it's just hype coming from the new owner. Toronto will finish above them IMO

Christ I hope you're kidding.

I just went over without the UFA's we were third in the conference in scoring and that was without Roy and Pominville for the half the season and an injured Ryan Miller.

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08-05-2011, 12:18 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by SarahRomance View Post
My friend from Montreal goes on and on about how The Bruins aren't nearly as big of a rival as The Leafs. I was a tad shocked by this seeing I was raised in Boston and was under the assumption it was Bruins vs Habs for the big rivalry.
Look at it this way:

We hate Bostonians because of the Bruins
We hate the Leafs because of Toronto


Does it make sense?

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Old
08-05-2011, 12:22 PM
  #71
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you gotta love the summer.every fan thinks they re team has a chance .

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08-05-2011, 12:22 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by CareyClutch View Post
Why you get mad? you asked for opinions..you get them...


Because how does a team without that offense finish third, and now they have the offense but will "Strugglr up front" You never said why.

Give a legit reason.

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08-05-2011, 12:23 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by HarryI View Post
Montreal still made improvements and finished ahead of Buffalo last year (albeit by a tie-breaker)

They have added:

Markov
Gorges
Cole

To replace:

Wisniewski
Picard
Pouliot

Also getting a healthy Pacioretty and Cammalleri back. Gomez will most likely have a better season as well.

i think fans of either team can spin the "added players" argument in numerous ways given the injury issues both teams went through...

but going from opening day roster on Oct 1 2010-Oct 1 2011, I think it's hard to argue that the habs roster improved, or was upgraded, as much as the sabres roster has been.

In real terms, we'v only "added" Cole, Emelin/Diaz(IF one of them makes opening day roster) and Budaj...

Sabres added Erhoff, Regher, Leino, Kotalik.

talk about returning players from injury (markov/maxpac/gorges), or players improving on last years performance (be it youth improvments or veterans "bouncing back") is highly speculative, and again, I think both teams could spin a convincing story in their favor.

in terms of NHL talent/depth added to the roster, as much as Cole will help and I hope Emelin will step right into a top 4-5 role, give me Erhoff/Leino/Regher/Kotalik as the better upgrade any day of the week.

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08-05-2011, 12:23 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by SabresFan44 View Post
Because how does a team without that offense finish third, and now they have the offense but will "Strugglr up front" You never said why.

Give a legit reason.
lol.what offense?

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08-05-2011, 12:25 PM
  #75
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Fair enough, I figured something along those lines. I wasn't sure if it was one of the things Ive dealt with in MN where Vikings fans think their rivals are Green Bay and Green Bay thinks their rivals are The Bears...
I think the fact the Leafs used to be in the Norris division and the Habs in the Adams played a role too. Had they been in the same conference and division as the habs forever, then maybe, but for me, Boston is and always has been the team I hate most.

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