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Offseason Movement Thread III (Acq./Rstr. Bldg./Cap Mgt.)

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08-04-2011, 12:17 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Absolutely they'd take Ovechkin for Weber!

Their attendance would instantly skyrocket as would their budget one would suspect. They would get lots of "face time" on TV and that will do nothing but good.

Ovechkin is why the Caps have sold out all their games for a few years now. Make no mistake about that. All the other guys are good players and we'd still be a good team but their would be a dip in attendance and merchandise sales.

Ovechkin is a marketting dream and his value transcends what he does on the ice.
Exactly. A world renowned talent like Ovechkin makes the entire landscape of a franchise change.

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08-04-2011, 08:52 PM
  #102
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Exactly. A world renowned talent like Ovechkin makes the entire landscape of a franchise change.
sure enough. but not always in the ways that you had hoped.

Two words: Jagr. Kovalchuk. There are many more examples of that, but we can start with those two.

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08-04-2011, 11:30 PM
  #103
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the difference between nashville's system and what ovechkin scored 50+ goals doing is largely defense play. boudreau had the caps playing very tight gaps with the forwards and pressing on the offensive side of the blue line. he had the defense cutting off the boards as an escape route.

this is why the caps could be victimized by the home run pass up the middle and why they gave up odd man breaks from the red line in. nashville(and the caps last season) backed up to their own blue line before standing up and they play defense closer to the middle of the ice and give up the boards.

its less about defensive zone play and offensive players cheating the zone than about where the defensemen play and what their assignments are in the offensive end of the ice. that said, the caps wings used to play out at the blue line near the opposing dmen and the center was more often in the slot. when they changed the center was more often deep and the wings inside the circles.

big difference in transition offense that way.
I was talking about Hanlon's defensive/grinding system under which Ovechkin dominated, which Trotz runs a competent version of.

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08-05-2011, 07:46 AM
  #104
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the difference between the hanlon system and the boudreau d first system in how it effected ovechkin was that ov played out at the blue line in his own end and not inside the faceoff circle.

the trotz system has all five players below the tops of the circles on defense. either trotz lets ovechkin play outside the system or what you get is a closer to the boudreau system than the hanlon. then you can add that nashville doesnt have a center that plays offense at the johansson level much less the backstrom level. they dont have a defenseman that passes like green or skates with the rush like green.

yes weber is an offensive player, but he is far more of a set piece gunner than a playmaker.

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08-05-2011, 09:12 AM
  #105
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sure enough. but not always in the ways that you had hoped.

Two words: Jagr. Kovalchuk. There are many more examples of that, but we can start with those two.

thats not exacly fair Tex. I see your point, but those arent apples to apples. Jagr was on downside of career and a known locker room issue. Ted gambled. Jagr was a similar player to what Ted "thought he was getting" in NYR, and he made them more marquee....

that said, Jagr was never as big as Ovechkin is now. Not even in his heyday. He's simply not the character Ovechkin is, and was never marketed as such. Ovy is THE GUY w Sid, and thats not debatable.

Kovalchuk is an even worse example. He's a scorer, but thats it. He's no more an iconic figure than Joe Thornton is now, or Pavel Bure was then. Again, not even in the same stratosphere as Ovechkin, and even further off than Jagr.

Kovalchuk is a popular *Russian* Hockey player. Ovechkin is a popular *Hockey* player who happens to be Russian. Surely you can see the difference?

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08-05-2011, 09:28 AM
  #106
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jagr was on the downside of his career? he was 29 and coming off a 52 goal 121 pt season.

yes, ovechkin is more of a character and more of a positive influence at least in the public domain. jagr was a huge star and hugely popular in pittsburgh.

if nashville trade weber for ovechkin and got the 30 goal 80pt $10m per year ovechkin that rocked the red last season, the enthusiasum for him in nashville would be short lived unless they won a cup in the process.

i am not busting on either ov or nashville. i am just saying that til ov brings the 50 goal game back as his primary effort, there's a reasonable chance that the 32 goal ov of last season may be the new normal. if so, he's not tradeable much less a player you could use to buy shea weber.

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08-05-2011, 01:20 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
sure enough. but not always in the ways that you had hoped.

Two words: Jagr. Kovalchuk. There are many more examples of that, but we can start with those two.
Why would you pick two guys who have been flaky at best, headcases at worst to compare to Ovy?


Not an apples to apples comparison IMO. 1 of the 3 is a guy every GM in the league would want as their franchise centerpiece, the other two...not so much.

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08-05-2011, 02:25 PM
  #108
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those were the first two that came to mind, but there are many others.

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08-05-2011, 03:25 PM
  #109
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I am really not liking where the Caps are right now with the salary cap. It leaves zero room for any deadline acquisitions, leaving the Caps dealing from a position of weakness into the stretch (if any changes are to be made). Or is there something I'm not seeing?

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08-05-2011, 03:41 PM
  #110
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the past couple of seasons mcphee left a good bit of cap space and used roster spots to develope young players. the idea being that he could give regular season games to players like fleischmann and fehr and carlson and johansson til the deadline and then fill in at the deadline.

after his july activity he said that he felt like that failed and that he wanted to go into the season with his team that he intended to compete in the playoffs with. this is why he is comfortable as close to the cap as he is. Its pretty clear to me that he made his deadline acquisitions during the off season this time.

if an injury creates a hole in his lineup, ltir will give him the relief he needs to fill at or near the deadline. if he feels like he needs to make an adjustment, he can trade off the roster to create space to make the change he wants to.

its just me, but i think he had hannan and arnott as part of his plan all along. that hannan never seeded in and that arnott's injury had not been managed as mcphee would have which resulted in the player not being playoff ready. thats just me. i think the reason hannan is out of a job is because the league felt like given the chance at primary minutes on a primary playoff team that he was exposed and proven to be either over the hill or unable to play the current nhl game at a high level anymore. i think hannan being out of work reflects his employability.

of course, i could be wrong. what do i know

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08-05-2011, 03:48 PM
  #111
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Sure, you could be spot on with both of those. I'm just saying, you know there will be players available at the deadline, and other playoff teams will be addressing positions of weakness. It doesn't seem like the Caps really have the ability to do that. Can't they have their cake and eat it too? Or do you think the Caps roster can't be upgraded within the cap?

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08-05-2011, 04:06 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
Sure, you could be spot on with both of those. I'm just saying, you know there will be players available at the deadline, and other playoff teams will be addressing positions of weakness. It doesn't seem like the Caps really have the ability to do that. Can't they have their cake and eat it too? Or do you think the Caps roster can't be upgraded within the cap?
TDL additions aren't a pre-requisite for winning the Cup. They can help, but aren't essential. Who did Chicago add at the deadline? Nick Boynton? The only meaningful trade they made that season was dealing away a roster player (Cam Barker) for Nick Leddy and Kim Johnsson.

As the season progresses, injuries will give McPhee and Boudreau time to evaluate younger players to see what they have. If guys like Eakin, Sjogren, Beagle, King, or Perreault are capable of holding down an NHL position on a contender, the people in front of them on the depth chart can be moved to free up cap space to make a TDL addition.

Our cap situation isn't all that different from what teams like Philadelphia, Boston, and Vancouver had going into the season last year. LTIR space and shipping salary out allowed for those teams to add players like Tomas Kaberle, Kris Versteeg, Maxim Lapierre, Rich Peverly, Chris Kelly, and Christopher Higgins.

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08-05-2011, 05:07 PM
  #113
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i would suggest to you that a player like eakin will not play a veteran player with a contract off the team. mcphee has not shown much willingness to trade depth off his roster to make room for a player that he can send to hershey free of waivers. he prefers to keep both players.

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08-06-2011, 12:25 AM
  #114
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the difference between the hanlon system and the boudreau d first system in how it effected ovechkin was that ov played out at the blue line in his own end and not inside the faceoff circle.

the trotz system has all five players below the tops of the circles on defense. either trotz lets ovechkin play outside the system or what you get is a closer to the boudreau system than the hanlon. then you can add that nashville doesnt have a center that plays offense at the johansson level much less the backstrom level. they dont have a defenseman that passes like green or skates with the rush like green.

yes weber is an offensive player, but he is far more of a set piece gunner than a playmaker.
Ovechkin doesn't need elite centers. I thought this was pretty obvious when he was killing it with Zubrus. At this point Legwand is essentially a better Johansson and plays the fast, aggressive style that helps Ovechkin more than having some top end playmaker set him up. Ovechkin is at his best when he controls the tempo and has his centers creating space for him through speed/physicality and taking care of the defensive end of things. It's a Nash-Malhotra type chemistry.

Trotz definitely lets some of his players cheat slightly on getting out of the zone when he thinks they've earned it and are taking care of the defensive end of things. If anything trapping styles usually lead to one player per line sucking up a ton of the statistical output because the counterattack flows through him (ie Gaborik in Minnesota) Do you think Dumont was a Selke caliber 70 point forward with them? What about Kostitsyn? What about Arnott having one of his best years recently even despite already suffering from decline? They can put career numbers up in Nashville but Ovechkin will be stuck as a 30 goal 80 point player? You're seriously saying this after spending the whole season ascribing Ovechkin's offensive woes to him wiffing on routine shots and passes (which was noticeable)? NOW it's all about the system?

As far as defensive playmaking, Suter is a lot better than Green at passing. Green is better at shooting on the PP and maybe skating the puck, but Suter's vision and decision making is on a whole different level. No slight to Green. Blum and Josi, who are all but guaranteed to be on the team next year, also have Carlson-level offensive instincts that are very likely to translate (in Blum's case already have).

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08-06-2011, 09:31 AM
  #115
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if you think ovechkin would flourish in nashville and that the payroll structure of that team could survive a $10m player, we will have to agree to disagree.

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08-06-2011, 01:33 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Ovechkin doesn't need elite centers.

To do what?

To make it on SportsCenter highlights a couple times each week?

Or to win the Cup?

If the idea is to win the Cup then adding an elite C or two makes a lot of sense. But hey, we have Brooks Laich so we should be cool.

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08-06-2011, 02:06 PM
  #117
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Halpy, I don't mean to pick on you. I agree w/ most what you write here at HF. Just that one sentence stuck out. Ovie can be effective with a C besides Backstrom. But a great C would take pressure off a lot of other players.

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08-06-2011, 02:20 PM
  #118
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Someone explain to me mike green. why is he no longer the top offensive defenseman? In my mind he still is, but I feel like a lot of prognosticators follow a what-have-you-done for me lately and are now underrating him. Or do you guys think that there is something to that and between his health concerns and change in system play (as well as the emergence of carlson) that he is no longer able to put tthe numbers he did in the past.

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08-06-2011, 02:31 PM
  #119
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* Carlson had nothing to do with Green.
* Green hurt his shoulder in game 2 of the season and followed that with a knee injury and a head injury. He really never got going.
* Green made a point of wanting to improve his defensive play and his penalty killing. He was concentrating on that from training camp.

I would expect more production from him this season

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08-06-2011, 03:07 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
I am really not liking where the Caps are right now with the salary cap. It leaves zero room for any deadline acquisitions, leaving the Caps dealing from a position of weakness into the stretch (if any changes are to be made). Or is there something I'm not seeing?
Caps squad "as is" is deep and talented. They have extra forwards, 7 deep on D without using Orlov or McNeill, and have 3 G's. Healthy, this team could use another forward, but that may be it.

If Poti is LTIR, as many expect, then the Caps will have 1.967mil left over to add to their roster. Of that 2mil, we need an added depth players as we have 20 skaters on the roster (13F, 7D). Added player will probably be Sjogren at 900k (my guess), or Eakin at 637k. If its Sjogren, we will have 1.067m to play with at the deadline.

1.067m at the deadline (with 25% or so of the season left) will allow some 4m in players, give or take. Thats enough to add so decent salary. If we have more injuries, we can replace that salary with like salary.

Once the playoffs start, everyone is available, injured or not.

I'm not worried at all.

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08-06-2011, 03:11 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
the past couple of seasons mcphee left a good bit of cap space and used roster spots to develope young players. the idea being that he could give regular season games to players like fleischmann and fehr and carlson and johansson til the deadline and then fill in at the deadline.

after his july activity he said that he felt like that failed and that he wanted to go into the season with his team that he intended to compete in the playoffs with. this is why he is comfortable as close to the cap as he is. Its pretty clear to me that he made his deadline acquisitions during the off season this time.

if an injury creates a hole in his lineup, ltir will give him the relief he needs to fill at or near the deadline. if he feels like he needs to make an adjustment, he can trade off the roster to create space to make the change he wants to.

its just me, but i think he had hannan and arnott as part of his plan all along. that hannan never seeded in and that arnott's injury had not been managed as mcphee would have which resulted in the player not being playoff ready. thats just me. i think the reason hannan is out of a job is because the league felt like given the chance at primary minutes on a primary playoff team that he was exposed and proven to be either over the hill or unable to play the current nhl game at a high level anymore. i think hannan being out of work reflects his employability.

of course, i could be wrong. what do i know

I should have read one more post before I responded to cap room concerns. I agree with all of this. Caps made a strategic decision to add what they needed earlier, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. I have been hoping for tehm to add teh needed pieces the last few years much earlier, as it takes time to gel.

They have done that, and its a good thing.

Oh, and you dont know jack! LOL

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08-06-2011, 03:13 PM
  #122
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My understanding is you can't bank LTIR savings, right? So if they're over the cap all season and are only getting by because Poti's on LTIR, they would only be able to add ~$2M at the deadline, right?

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08-06-2011, 03:17 PM
  #123
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My understanding is you can't bank LTIR savings, right? So if they're over the cap all season and are only getting by because Poti's on LTIR, they would only be able to add ~$2M at the deadline, right?

I thought they could add 2m in salary, and that was salary remaining (so 25% of a seasons salary). So...2m = 25% of 8m. I know that the saved money due to LTIR cant be accrued and "banked" so that amount couldnt be multiplied (so that 1m each day doesnt accrue to a huge number). But I thought a players paid down salary--percentage left of 100%-- could be added.

That said, I am probably wrong?

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08-06-2011, 03:20 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Ridley Simon View Post
I thought they could add 2m in salary, and that was salary remaining (so 25% of a seasons salary). So...2m = 25% of 8m. I know that the saved money due to LTIR cant be accrued and "banked" so that amount couldnt be multiplied (so that 1m each day doesnt accrue to a huge number). But I thought a players paid down salary--percentage left of 100%-- could be added.

That said, I am probably wrong?
It's 2mil in full season cap hits, not prorated cap hits.

If you're prorating the cap hits of the guy you're acquiring, then you have to prorate Poti's as well so your LTIR space is no longer that 2something, it's whatever fraction of that is left in the season.

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08-06-2011, 03:33 PM
  #125
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It's 2mil in full season cap hits, not prorated cap hits.

If you're prorating the cap hits of the guy you're acquiring, then you have to prorate Poti's as well so your LTIR space is no longer that 2something, it's whatever fraction of that is left in the season.
There you go then. 1m not 4m.

Still not worried....

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