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08-05-2011, 06:34 PM
  #276
Beef Invictus
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Perhaps Jagr doesn't have injury issues because he's spent the last few seasons in a league that doesn't emphasize hitting.

Edit: You've yet to really prove that Jagr WILL score at a PPG pace, except to say "HE WILL." He struggled to produce at that level in a lesser league. That alone seems damning.

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08-05-2011, 07:10 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Perhaps Jagr doesn't have injury issues because he's spent the last few seasons in a league that doesn't emphasize hitting.

Edit: You've yet to really prove that Jagr WILL score at a PPG pace, except to say "HE WILL." He struggled to produce at that level in a lesser league. That alone seems damning.
I know it was only one season but why did Kovalchuk, Lecavalier, Datsyuk and Ovechkin all struggle in the KHL to the point they were scoring at 0.75-.0.85 PPG clips?

For what's it worth that same season Jagr had 39 Pts in 32 games. He was one of only 5 players who had PPG. It's a low scoring league, some superstar players struggled in this "lesser league".

Some players who can score 100 Pts in the NHL would struggle to score PPG in the KHL. Not because I think the KHL is a better league but because I think it's a completely different league. They emphasize different aspects of hockey. You said hitting is not emphasized; Jagr used to feed off of people trying to hit. The more obstruction and hitting there was, the more dominant Jagr was.

In his first season Jagr did not get PPG but was close to it in the KHL. In his second season he started the year on fire, had 3 hattricks in his first 15 games before his teammate and young Cherapanov collapsed on the ice and died right in front of Jagr. Jagr then hit a huge slump that lasted the rest of the season. Do you blame him for being affected by a teammate's death that happened right before his eyes? How was he supposed to focus on hockey after that?

I have no way of knowing this unless it can actually happen but I'm willing to make a bet that guys like Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Malkin and Datsyuk (I'm using Russian hockey players because it would be an easier transition for them going to a place where they speak their language) would struggle to score PPG in the KHL if they were to go there during their primes.

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08-05-2011, 07:16 PM
  #278
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Perhaps because they didn't have time to adjust to new teams, new systems, and in some cases, new languages?

I dont really care enough to continue this. As I mentioned before, this debate boils down to:

"Yeah, Jagr should do pretty well."
"NO! Jagr will do really well!"

What's the point? Nobody here is saying he's going to suck.

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08-05-2011, 07:27 PM
  #279
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08-06-2011, 01:43 AM
  #280
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Why are you guys wasting your time arguing with someone who clearly isn't going to be swayed by anything you could possibly say?

Save yourselves the frustration.

As for the PPG in KHL issue, are they still exceptionally stingy on secondary assists over there?

I think Jester's 70 point prediction is more than fair. I would expect somewhere between 70-80.

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08-06-2011, 11:15 AM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Did you not read my post about Gretzky and Lemieux? They both had bad backs and played like that for a good portion of their 30's. Their regression and demise came a lot quicker than it should have due to their health.
hahahahahahaha.

A lot sooner than it should have... Their late 30s is a lot sooner than it should have? Man, you are hopelessly over your head.

Average age of retirement from the NHL is 27 or something.

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08-06-2011, 11:51 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
hahahahahahaha.

A lot sooner than it should have... Their late 30s is a lot sooner than it should have? Man, you are hopelessly over your head.

Average age of retirement from the NHL is 27 or something.
I translated that as their retirement came mainly due to health with age being a secondary factor like any other person

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08-06-2011, 01:07 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Casteor View Post
I translated that as their retirement came mainly due to health with age being a secondary factor like any other person
Huh?

Gretzky played til he was 38 and put up 62 pts in 70 games, He remained more than good enough to keep playing if he wanted to.

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08-06-2011, 03:01 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Huh?

Gretzky played til he was 38 and put up 62 pts in 70 games, He remained more than good enough to keep playing if he wanted to.
When you're someone like Gretzky or Lermieux you have higher standards than anyone else.

I'm sure if Gretzky didn't have the bad back he would have been a PPG player at age 38 and he would have continued playing. If I recall Gretzky always tried to beat Howe's records (as Howe was his idol and was the player that everyone measured Gretzky to) and if he didn't have any health issues and knew he could have continued to be dominant passed the age of 38, he would have continued to play. Why not beat Howe's record of games played or even beat his record of having the best seasons after the age of 39? I'm sure Gretzky wanted to if he could.

Gretzky's regression and retirement did come sooner than expected. If not for his bad back he would have most likely continued to rack up the points even in his last season.

You just keep laughing at my arguments, it's making you look childish. Instead of actually reading what I wrote, you're just changing the topic and taking my arguments out of context.

Why is Selanne still playing? If a player feels he can still continue to play at a high level for longer and especially if they have a certain legacy to uphold, they will continue.

Why would guys like Lemieux and Gretzky continue playing if they thought they would be complete shells of their former selves? That's why they hung up their skates.

Jagr feels he can still play at a very high level, that high level is not 60-75 Pts as you claim. That might seem exceptional for your average 40 year old star like Hull, Oates, Francis even Selanne but Jagr is not your average star. He is easily one of the 15 best players of all time. He's a generational talent and he's not going to come back to the NHL to embarrass himself. You think he will be content with 60-75 Pts? I doubt it, but again what do I know, I'm just a delusional fan boy.


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08-06-2011, 03:21 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casteor View Post
I translated that as their retirement came mainly due to health with age being a secondary factor like any other person
Exactly and I'm sure most understood my comment that way.

Gretzky could have retired later than 38 years old but his bad back was getting worse and worse and he felt his body could no longer withstand the rigors of another 82 game season in the NHL.

Jagr feels he can and just like Gretzky he has a certain legacy to uphold.

Gretzky's 62 Pts in 70 games seems exceptional on the surface but this is Gretzky we're talking about. If not for the constant obstruction and abuse he was going up against during the "Dead Puck Era" and his bad back, he would have most certainly had PPG at age 38.

So the reoccurring theme here is mileage and wear and tear. Gretzky had over 1450 games played while Jagr is still under 1300. Gretzky also played a lot of NHL games after the age of 36, Jagr has been out of the NHL for the last 3 years and has not had to contend with all that obstruction and aggression in the KHL. His body is fresh and is closer to the body of a 35 year old than a 39-40 year old.

Jagr is no Howe but he's similar to Howe in the sense that he's considered by most to be a top 5 all-time great offensive player but also like Howe he has been relatively healthy most of his career and he's been durable. This is what really lends me to believe Jagr will be more like Howe at age 39 + than like your average star who's career regresses after the age of 38.

PPG is still considered regression for Jagr when it comes to his stats and career averages.

Getting 30-35 goals will be below his career average of 41 goals and getting 75-95 Pts will be below his average of 100 + Pts.

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08-06-2011, 08:03 PM
  #286
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I expect him to do the salute when he scores

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08-06-2011, 08:04 PM
  #287
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I expect him to grow a mullet... for old time sake.

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08-07-2011, 12:13 AM
  #288
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I live/go to school in Pittsburgh, so today I did the only logical thing...bought a Jagr teeshirt jersey to display to the little girls

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08-07-2011, 05:23 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
I expect him to grow a mullet... for old time sake.
A hartnell - Giroux - Jagr line.

The mullet will return!

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08-07-2011, 07:56 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
A hartnell - Giroux - Jagr line.
The Mullet Line

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08-08-2011, 01:50 AM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonMTG View Post
I live/go to school in Pittsburgh, so today I did the only logical thing...bought a Jagr teeshirt jersey to display to the little girls
This is proper trolling. Good work.

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08-10-2011, 11:06 PM
  #292
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Hockey News Ultimate Pool guide came out this week... it has Giroux leading the Flyers with 77 points and Jagr 2nd with 66 points. Briere with 63 and JVR with 62, followed by Voracek at 57 and Schenn and Hartnell with 50 each. I think Simmonds was in at 35.

Also - Bryz with 36 wins and Bob with 12.

As an aside it has Leino with 60 in Buffalo, Carter with 74 (I think), Richards with 67 or so. Overall, according to their math - the departure of Richards, Carter and Leino is offset offensively by Jagr, Voracek, Schenn and increase in JVR points.

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08-11-2011, 01:45 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Beastieboy View Post
Hockey News Ultimate Pool guide came out this week... it has Giroux leading the Flyers with 77 points and Jagr 2nd with 66 points. Briere with 63 and JVR with 62, followed by Voracek at 57 and Schenn and Hartnell with 50 each. I think Simmonds was in at 35.

Also - Bryz with 36 wins and Bob with 12.

As an aside it has Leino with 60 in Buffalo, Carter with 74 (I think), Richards with 67 or so. Overall, according to their math - the departure of Richards, Carter and Leino is offset offensively by Jagr, Voracek, Schenn and increase in JVR points.
Wow. 36 wins for Bryz would be an abject failure.

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08-11-2011, 02:04 AM
  #294
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Sometimes I forget Jagr is on the Flyers. I always have to double-take when I think about it.

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08-11-2011, 03:05 AM
  #295
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Wow. 36 wins for Bryz would be an abject failure.
48 wins on the year is a failure lol? Damn. I don't want to know what success is.

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08-11-2011, 06:03 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Dykhuis26 View Post
Wow. 36 wins for Bryz would be an abject failure.
I disagree. While compared to his 42 win season with PHX, 36 wins sounds mediocre - factor in that he will not NEED to start 65+ games as he did with PHX. Having Bobrovsky in place ensures that he will will probably be closer to 55 starts.

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08-11-2011, 06:46 AM
  #297
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Originally Posted by OriginJM View Post
Sometimes I forget Jagr is on the Flyers. I always have to double-take when I think about it.
I half expect/hope to see a tweet announcing that Jagr has been traded to the Jets before he ever dares to pull on an orange sweater over his head.

It was already hard enough watching the likes of Nedved & Ulfie sport the orange and black, I don't think my brain can handle seeing Jagr wearing our colors. My optical nerves might get fried and I'll never see again.

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08-11-2011, 07:16 AM
  #298
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
So the reoccurring theme here is mileage and wear and tear. Gretzky had over 1450 games played while Jagr is still under 1300. Gretzky also played a lot of NHL games after the age of 36, Jagr has been out of the NHL for the last 3 years and has not had to contend with all that obstruction and aggression in the KHL. His body is fresh and is closer to the body of a 35 year old than a 39-40 year old.

Jagr is no Howe but he's similar to Howe in the sense that he's considered by most to be a top 5 all-time great offensive player but also like Howe he has been relatively healthy most of his career and he's been durable. This is what really lends me to believe Jagr will be more like Howe at age 39 + than like your average star who's career regresses after the age of 38.

PPG is still considered regression for Jagr when it comes to his stats and career averages.

Getting 30-35 goals will be below his career average of 41 goals and getting 75-95 Pts will be below his average of 100 + Pts.
We'll have to see how many points he gets, but I think you've made a good argument in this thread that if any older player returning from the KHL is capable of being the anomaly to the stats regarding player age and production, Jagr is it.

He's not a 40 year old scrub, he's an instant HOFer returning, healthy, fit and motivated, to a league in which he has consistently dominated whenever he's played.

If he can score 82 points, it'll be fantastic. Carter and Richards only got 66 each last year. If he only scores 65, it'll still be a success.

The key is that he 'knock wood' stays healthy.

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08-11-2011, 08:41 AM
  #299
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I'm not expecting this, but if Jagr can play top line minutes, a JvR-Giroux-Jagr line could be pretty sick. Again, not expecting this but if he can still play, watch out! I haven't seen him play since he was in the NHL and I assume 90% of you are in that same boat. We'll know what to expect once the season starts.

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08-11-2011, 10:31 AM
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
I know it was only one season but why did Kovalchuk, Lecavalier, Datsyuk and Ovechkin all struggle in the KHL to the point they were scoring at 0.75-.0.85 PPG clips?

For what's it worth that same season Jagr had 39 Pts in 32 games. He was one of only 5 players who had PPG. It's a low scoring league, some superstar players struggled in this "lesser league".

Some players who can score 100 Pts in the NHL would struggle to score PPG in the KHL. Not because I think the KHL is a better league but because I think it's a completely different league. They emphasize different aspects of hockey. You said hitting is not emphasized; Jagr used to feed off of people trying to hit. The more obstruction and hitting there was, the more dominant Jagr was.

In his first season Jagr did not get PPG but was close to it in the KHL. In his second season he started the year on fire, had 3 hattricks in his first 15 games before his teammate and young Cherapanov collapsed on the ice and died right in front of Jagr. Jagr then hit a huge slump that lasted the rest of the season. Do you blame him for being affected by a teammate's death that happened right before his eyes? How was he supposed to focus on hockey after that?

I have no way of knowing this unless it can actually happen but I'm willing to make a bet that guys like Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Malkin and Datsyuk (I'm using Russian hockey players because it would be an easier transition for them going to a place where they speak their language) would struggle to score PPG in the KHL if they were to go there during their primes.
I think you are right that the league is more defensive, but none of the above guys ever played in the KHL, they played in the RSL. Perhaps there is little difference, but based on very little (a comment or a few I have read on here) I think the KHL is a tougher league than the RSL was. Of course that works in favor of your argument that Jagr will hit a ppg. However, the guys you mentioned all played in Russia when they were quite young, now that doesn't mean they weren't capable of putting up a ppg in the NHL if they had come over then, but it could maybe explain why they put up lower numbers. For instance Ovechkin played in the RSL from ages 16-19, Malkin played from ages 16-18 and put up a ppg in his last season there, and Datsyuk wasn't able to put up a ppg until his 4th season (not including the lockout) in the NHL.

On the other hand you make a valid point about neither Kovalchuk or Datsyuk being able to put up a ppg when returning to Russia. Datsyuk's first ppg+ season wasn't until after the lockout season, a season when a lot of people's goals were apparently inflated, but I think it is still a valid point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
I disagree. While compared to his 42 win season with PHX, 36 wins sounds mediocre - factor in that he will not NEED to start 65+ games as he did with PHX. Having Bobrovsky in place ensures that he will will probably be closer to 55 starts.
Laviolette likes to keep playing a goalie as long as he is playing well, and Bryzgalov can perform well while playing a large number of games, so I think he is going to be the starter at least 60 times.

edit- Though perhaps Laviolette will change up his game plan now that he has two goalies who are potentially capable of being number one goalies.


Last edited by ilovetheflyers8: 08-11-2011 at 10:38 AM.
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