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Old
08-07-2011, 04:32 PM
  #901
Zil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
I don't understand people using certain stats as indication if a certain player is better.

Maybe it's because I'm not a big stat person.

Few people would take Pedroia over Cano.

And before all the injuries, Utley was better than both.
In most stats don't tell you much, but in baseball they're everything. You can measure exactly how good of a hitter someone is much easier than you can measure how good someone is at something like basketball. At its core baseball is a one on one sport, pitcher versus hitter.

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08-07-2011, 04:34 PM
  #902
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I might take Pedroia this year. When Cano isn't going full retard I'd take Cano AINEC. But suddenly Cano thinks he's a 60 homerun guy and tries to pull everything. When he stops, he'll be #1 again.

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08-07-2011, 04:34 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
What did I say that wasnt true?

WAR is a very odd stat and it certainly isnt a telling stat. Melvin Mora had a higher WAR than A-Rod in 2004 -- does that mean he was better than A-Rod?
Where are you getting your WAR stats from? Fan Graphs has Rodriguez's 2004 WAR as 6.8, Mora's as 6.2. Baseball-Reference has them at 6.2 and 5.4, respectively.

Quote:
Youkilis has a higher WAR than Miggy, but Miggy is crushing Youk in almost every major offensive category, with an OPS+ almost 40 points higher.
WAR considers both offensive and defensive contributions. Youkilis is a plus defensive player, which improves his WAR, whereas Cabrera is horrid defensively. If you look at oWAR, which excludes defense, then Cabrera is at 5.0 and Youkilis is at 3.9.

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Here some more facts:

Cano -- .330 BA/.980 OPS with RISP
Cano -- .313 BA/.957 OPS with RISP and 2 outs

Pedroia -- .307 BA/.873 OPS with RISP
Pedroia -- .273 Ba/.787 OPS with RISP and 2 outs

But yeah, knocking in runs is a really useless stat LOL
RBI, by itself, is a relatively unimportant statistic. When you provide additional perspective, such as the statistics you provided, then yes it has meaning. RBI is so completely dependent on position in lineup, the offensive capabilities of the rest of the team, park factors, and so on. I'm fairly certain that's what Zil was alluding to. Using RBI by itself is like gauging which pitcher is better based solely on wins.

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08-07-2011, 04:42 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Of all the stupid Sabremetric stats WAR has to be the worst. It doesn't even have a ****ing formula. It's worthless rubbish and I can't believe people even buy it, let alone use it as an end all, be all stat.
....yes it does?

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/misc/war/

If you choose to be willfully ignorant of advanced statistics, that's fine. But don't make things up.

I didn't know Joe Morgan posted on HF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
I don't understand people using certain stats as indication if a certain player is better.

Maybe it's because I'm not a big stat person.

Few people would take Pedroia over Cano.


And before all the injuries, Utley was better than both.
What are you basing this on?

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08-07-2011, 04:42 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
Where are you getting your WAR stats from? Fan Graphs has Rodriguez's 2004 WAR as 6.8, Mora's as 6.2. Baseball-Reference has them at 6.2 and 5.4, respectively.
Maybe he's using O-War. In 2004 Mora's was 7.0 and A-Rod's was 6.0, which makes sense given their slash lines.

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08-07-2011, 04:44 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
....yes it does?

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/misc/war/

Please don't make things up.


A few sites provide WAR stats and each one uses a different formula. I don't trust that.

And again, I will always prefer meat and potatoes stats: driving in runs and getting on base. I'm well aware of the variables that come with these stats, that's part of the game. I don't need stats to eliminate the variables for me. God dammit, I like the variables.

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08-07-2011, 04:44 PM
  #907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
....yes it does?

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/misc/war/

Please don't make things up.



What are you basing this on?
Fans and people around the game.

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08-07-2011, 04:46 PM
  #908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Fans and people around the game.
Ok, and from my experience, the fans and people around the game that I know, I completely disagree. Do you have any empirical evidence to support this, or are we talking strictly anecdotes? I bet if you made a poll on the baseball board asking who people prefer, it would be much closer than you think. Living in NYC may be skewing your perception of this argument.

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08-07-2011, 04:46 PM
  #909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Fans and people around the game.
Most people would take Cano but why would you take Cano?

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08-07-2011, 04:47 PM
  #910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Fans and people around the game.
I'm going to take a wild guess that you're a Yankees fan and most of the fans you know are Yankees fans or are living in New York and might be a bit biased.

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Old
08-07-2011, 04:55 PM
  #911
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Interesting read on Pedroia vs. Cano: http://itsaboutthemoney.net/archives...g-intangibles/

Google Pedroia vs. Cano and you'll find a million articles.

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08-07-2011, 04:57 PM
  #912
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I think it really comes down what you're looking for. Cano has more raw talent, but Pedroia plays harder and gets things done. On the Yankees I'd take Cano because they already have players that are scrappy like Pedroia.

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Old
08-07-2011, 05:00 PM
  #913
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My avatar has Cano in it so......


When I say people around the game I'm referring to announcers, host, etc....

I'm not saying Pedroia sucks or anything just saying that I think Cano is better.

I've never heard anyone around the game say "Pedroia is the best second baseman in baseball."

They just acknowledge that he's a wonderful player.

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Old
08-07-2011, 05:04 PM
  #914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
My avatar has Cano in it so......


When I say people around the game I'm referring to announcers, host, etc....

I'm not saying Pedroia sucks or anything just saying that I think Cano is better.

I've never heard anyone around the game say "Pedroia is the best second baseman in baseball."

They just acknowledge that he's a wonderful player.
As do I, even though I don't enjoy praising Sox. This is between apples and oranges which both happen to be sweet and juicy (I.E. good at baseball)

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08-07-2011, 05:07 PM
  #915
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Pre-2010, I would have taken Cano no question. But in the last two years Pedroia has started to hit outside of Fenway Park. I still take Cano because of his all world talent, but it's ridiculous to think it's a slam dunk either way.

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08-07-2011, 05:10 PM
  #916
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So how many Yankees will Beckett hit tonight?

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08-07-2011, 05:11 PM
  #917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
So how many Yankees will Beckett hit tonight?
As many as he wants. I'll take the baserunnners as long as noone is hurt. We need runs off this ****er any way possible because he's been tough on us lately.

As the saying goes "we got ice"

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08-07-2011, 05:12 PM
  #918
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Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
So how many Yankees will Beckett hit tonight?
2-3.

I would really like the Yankees to retaliate just once. Under Torre it felt like we would throw back at them. Under Girardi it seems like it takes injuries for just us to respond.

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Old
08-07-2011, 05:21 PM
  #919
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I feel good about this game

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Old
08-07-2011, 05:25 PM
  #920
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I am only consider OWAR in all my arguments because Pedroia is clearly a better defender than Cano and his value there is superior to him.

Pedroia has an excellent eye and is a tough out, but as the stats show, over his career he is a better hitter (40 points better) at Fenway than he is on the road. Somebody mentioned he takes advantage of Fenway? 123/72 are his Fenway/road splits for doubles. That is insane.

Cano, OTOH, is a career .300 hitter both home and away, and actually has a higher BA and OPS+ on the road despite playing in a bandbox since 2009.

All of this back and forth is kinda amusing when you consider Pedroia was getting booed at Fenway just two months ago. He goes on a hot streak and ESPN said he's a future hall of famer.

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Old
08-07-2011, 05:33 PM
  #921
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Anyway enough of this stupid debate.

I really could care less what the Yankees do tonight, because they make their money against other teams while the Red Sox almost never find a way to maintain the intensity and competitiveness they show against the Yankees when they play lesser teams.

Typical Boston is crushing the Yankees, then get swept by Oakland and lose 3 of 4 to Baltimore. It's amazing how the above formula is the biggest reason why the Yankees finished ahead of Boston 14 of the last 17 years.

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Old
08-07-2011, 05:34 PM
  #922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
I am only consider OWAR in all my arguments because Pedroia is clearly a better defender than Cano and his value there is superior to him.

Pedroia has an excellent eye and is a tough out, but as the stats show, over his career he is a better hitter (40 points better) at Fenway than he is on the road. Somebody mentioned he takes advantage of Fenway? 123/72 are his Fenway/road splits for doubles. That is insane.

Cano, OTOH, is a career .300 hitter both home and away, and actually has a higher BA and OPS+ on the road despite playing in a bandbox since 2009.

All of this back and forth is kinda amusing when you consider Pedroia was getting booed at Fenway just two months ago. He goes on a hot streak and ESPN said he's a future hall of famer.
That's all well and good, but your back and forth isn't with ESPN: it's with me and a few other posters. We all know ESPN is crap.

As for as the hot streak, who cares? The streak has put him right back in line with his career averages. It's not as if he's hitting above his head at this point. He went through a cold streak, posting crappy numbers, and then went through a hot streak, posting fantastic numbers. And now he's at his norms.

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08-07-2011, 05:37 PM
  #923
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if cano learned how to swing at strikes and lay off trying to hit bombs, he is by far the better player over pedroia. the guy is just not patient this year.

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08-07-2011, 05:39 PM
  #924
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
That's all well and good, but your back and forth isn't with ESPN: it's with me and a few other posters. We all know ESPN is crap. As for as the hot streak, who cares? The streak has put him right back in line with his career averages. It's not as if he's hitting above his head at this point. He went through a cold streak, posting crappy numbers, and then went through a hot streak, posting fantastic numbers. And now he's at his norms.
espn is the worst network in television. i get the douch chills whenever the yanks and sox play on espn. all the announcers do is try and find ways to reference 2004.

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08-07-2011, 05:41 PM
  #925
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Cano would be ridiculous at Fenway.

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