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Is our prospect pool okay or weak?

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Old
08-10-2011, 10:46 AM
  #51
Bullsmith
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The pool is depleted, no question. Some of it is due to the quantity of good young players who've moved up, much of it is due to BG and PG constantly sending prospects and picks out of the system, mostly for rentals like Wiz/Schneider or disasters like Tanguay.

IMO it's essential that we stop giving away our second rounders and build some depth back into the system. In the meantime, I can't argue that while the prospect pool has been depleted, the NHL roster, at least on paper, is just massively better than it was when the BG/PG era began.

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08-10-2011, 10:54 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
stormclouds are forming in front of Gauthier. He's got an average team with an impotent offense, a low ceiling prospect pool showing no signs they can be the successors of Gionta, Cammalleri, or Gomez let alone make this team better in the current window.

Add to that recent draft pick spends and I am not liking where this is headed.

Developing 3rd liners and picking up a Subban every decade or two doesn't make a successful development program. This team is not elite because it doesn't have an elite front office.
We didn't draft/develop Cammalleri or Gionta.......we can replace them by the same method we acquired them.

PG has done a good job so far. If the team wasn't leading the entire NHL in man games lost over the last 3 seasons we would have been able to hang on to the 2nd round picks that were traded and our prospect pool would be considerably stronger.

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08-10-2011, 11:02 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
stormclouds are forming in front of Gauthier. He's got an average team with an impotent offense, a low ceiling prospect pool showing no signs they can be the successors of Gionta, Cammalleri, or Gomez let alone make this team better in the current window.

Add to that recent draft pick spends and I am not liking where this is headed.

Developing 3rd liners and picking up a Subban every decade or two doesn't make a successful development program. This team is not elite because it doesn't have an elite front office.
Bit dramatic/alarmist, don't you think?

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08-10-2011, 11:49 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Bit dramatic/alarmist, don't you think?
The team was 14th in the league, 22nd in offense in a weak conference. No high ceiling prospects as observed by professional hockey people. Draft picks have been spent on keeping the ship afloat for playoff chances. The current window of so-called opportunity with Gionta/Gomez/Cammalleri is 3 years and shrinking. Free agent stocks of all kinds have been shrinking over time as teams generally cement their rosters and lock up their strategic assets earlier and longer.

I say Gauthier has a possible problem on the horizon and you think that's being dramatic? I think your response is dramatic - dramatically oblivious.


Last edited by Agnostic: 08-10-2011 at 11:55 AM.
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08-10-2011, 12:14 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
stormclouds are forming in front of Gauthier. He's got an average team with an impotent offense, a low ceiling prospect pool showing no signs they can be the successors of Gionta, Cammalleri, or Gomez let alone make this team better in the current window.

Add to that recent draft pick spends and I am not liking where this is headed.

Developing 3rd liners and picking up a Subban every decade or two doesn't make a successful development program. This team is not elite because it doesn't have an elite front office.
I didn't realise Plekanec and Pacioretty were 3rd liners.

Not sure where you get that we have a bunch of 3rd liners, most of our forward picks the last 5-6 years are guys with the upside to play top 6...some were later round picks and more high risk/high reward like Gallagher MacMillan Avtsin Prybil, some will bust but some will make it. The only bottom 6 guys we have are guys like Bournival, Schultz, Conboy, Engqvist, Nattinen, Berger...most were late rounders.

I have to laugh when people try to make a statement calling LeBlanc a 3rd liner at best when we see guys like Richards, Morrow, Brown, Sharp, Bergeron etc that play big minutes and have similar skillsets. Just because the guy isn't an all out finesse Semin type he won't be top 6...comical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
The team was 14th in the league, 22nd in offense in a weak conference. No high ceiling prospects as observed by professional hockey people. Draft picks have been spent on keeping the ship afloat for playoff chances. The current window of so-called opportunity with Gionta/Gomez/Cammalleri is 3 years and shrinking. Free agent stocks of all kinds have been shrinking over time as teams generally cement their rosters and lock up their strategic assets earlier and longer.

I say Gauthier has a possible problem on the horizon and you think that's being dramatic? I think your response is dramatic - dramatically oblivious.
The high ceiling prospects are the 6'2" 22 year old left winger, 22 year old defenseman and 23 year old #1 goalie.

Saying they only scored X goals and finished 14th is deceiving when you take out one of the best d-men in the NHL for 75 games and a solid top 4 guy for half the year.

Your view of things is at the extreme pessimistic level, you can look at any team and do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
The pool is depleted, no question. Some of it is due to the quantity of good young players who've moved up, much of it is due to BG and PG constantly sending prospects and picks out of the system, mostly for rentals like Wiz/Schneider or disasters like Tanguay.

IMO it's essential that we stop giving away our second rounders and build some depth back into the system. In the meantime, I can't argue that while the prospect pool has been depleted, the NHL roster, at least on paper, is just massively better than it was when the BG/PG era began.
Right now we have a very deep prospect pool, especially up front and on defense, there are potentially 20-25 NHLers in the group, obviously some will be 2nd liners, other depth players and others only role players. At this point none project as perennial all-stars but we just promoted Price and Subban in recent years that could be, and Plekanec if he wasn't so underrated should also be considered. Some may develop like Subban and have a steep upwards curve the nerxt couple years.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 08-10-2011 at 12:26 PM. Reason: merged posts
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08-10-2011, 12:43 PM
  #56
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I find it laughable when people get their panties in a bunch over people not projecting every forward we draft to be a 1st liner.

Yeah I do think Leblanc will be a 3rd liner. So what? Was he a first overall pick? And having a certain skill set is meaningless in the junior level. If he dominates the AHL maybe I change my mind but nothing outside of personal homerism pegs Leblanc as a 1st liner, 2nd liner at best is where most people think he'll end up. It's only the homers who say he'll definitely be better. So yeah, I don't think it's at all stupid to say he's a potential 3rd liner with 2nd liner upside. He may never even make the NHL. He's a prospect who hasn't had any AHL time yet even and people are penciling him in as a top line winger

It's a tad bit more ridiculous to assume a guy is going to be a top line winger when there's zilch to justify it than it is to say he's likely not going to be one. There's nothing to merit saying he will become that.

I'm an optimist and really do hope you're all right. But let's be realistic here, people are pegging non-Subban caliber prospects as 1st line wingers before they even play 1 AHL game. (And when I say Subban caliber I don't mean draft order, it's pretty easy to identify as he developed really fast. If all of the sudden next year Louis is getting called up due to burning it up of course I'll change my mind, but for now he's done nothing to justify this assumption that he'll be a top liner)


Last edited by neofury*: 08-10-2011 at 12:52 PM.
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Old
08-10-2011, 12:52 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I didn't realise Plekanec and Pacioretty were 3rd liners.

Not sure where you get that we have a bunch of 3rd liners, most of our forward picks the last 5-6 years are guys with the upside to play top 6...some were later round picks and more high risk/high reward like Gallagher MacMillan Avtsin Prybil, some will bust but some will make it. The only bottom 6 guys we have are guys like Bournival, Schultz, Conboy, Engqvist, Nattinen, Berger...most were late rounders.

I have to laugh when people try to make a statement calling LeBlanc a 3rd liner at best when we see guys like Richards, Morrow, Brown, Sharp, Bergeron etc that play big minutes and have similar skillsets. Just because the guy isn't an all out finesse Semin type he won't be top 6...comical.



The high ceiling prospects are the 6'2" 22 year old left winger, 22 year old defenseman and 23 year old #1 goalie.

Saying they only scored X goals and finished 14th is deceiving when you take out one of the best d-men in the NHL for 75 games and a solid top 4 guy for half the year.

Your view of things is at the extreme pessimistic level, you can look at any team and do that.



Right now we have a very deep prospect pool, especially up front and on defense, there are potentially 20-25 NHLers in the group, obviously some will be 2nd liners, other depth players and others only role players. At this point none project as perennial all-stars but we just promoted Price and Subban in recent years that could be, and Plekanec if he wasn't so underrated should also be considered. Some may develop like Subban and have a steep upwards curve the nerxt couple years.
you're living in the past. Plekanec was drafted in 2001 and Price and Subban are not prospects they are starting players. Besides you can't point to 3 players in the past decade and call it an effective program.

what's worse than pessimism are people that expect others to downplay or ignore obvious team problems so they can perpetuate the injury-as-an-excuse unlucky victim agenda year after bloody year. It's boring, and old, and pedestrian, but I guess if you don't buy into it you're not a "real fan" eh?

The current team is nowhere near success. They are in the middle, having created glaring weaknesses on the roster that , with no high impact talent on a 3 year horizon, cannot be addressed in the foreseeable future.

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08-10-2011, 01:11 PM
  #58
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Dude you're tripping hard. Yes this team isn't exactly stacked but we have some good pieces to the puzzle going forward and imo this team becomes a contender with just 1 more 1st line winger. We're built defence out while still having enough fire power to win games. At the end of the year total goals against and for mean nothing.. Its all about the W's.

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08-10-2011, 01:23 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
you're living in the past. Plekanec was drafted in 2001 and Price and Subban are not prospects they are starting players. Besides you can't point to 3 players in the past decade and call it an effective program.

what's worse than pessimism are people that expect others to downplay or ignore obvious team problems so they can perpetuate the injury-as-an-excuse unlucky victim agenda year after bloody year. It's boring, and old, and pedestrian, but I guess if you don't buy into it you're not a "real fan" eh?

The current team is nowhere near success. They are in the middle, having created glaring weaknesses on the roster that , with no high impact talent on a 3 year horizon, cannot be addressed in the foreseeable future.
That's laughable. I can't point to 1 superstar defenseman, a superstar goalie and a 1st line C (B) all drafted by a middle of the pack team over the last decade and call it an effective program?

Okay dude. Considering we draft more NHL players than any other team on top of the above you're talking out of your ass. It's called emptying the cupboard and filling it back up. You can't expect a middle of the pack team with middle of the pack picks to constantly have a Subban in their cupboard. That's ridiculous as players like that develop fast and thus you'd need to be drafting a superstar out of your ass every 2 years. Even Detroit who landed Zetterberg and Datsyuk hasn't pulled that off.

You're living in a dream world if you think that doesn't equate to an effective program and there's a reason Timmins is one of the most respected scouts in the league. Our GM is also a scout and you can believe it when I say this if he had no faith in Timmins he wouldn't be here.

And of course it can be addressed. It's called spending to the cap and UFA's. Just because management didn't jump at the opportunity to sign every UFA you wanted them too or pull 5 Subban's out of their ***** doesn't mean we aren't effective.

Anyways I can see you're drowning in a pool of your own pessimism and my words are going to be lost. We have the best team we've had in years, with cap space to use at deadline, with three high quality players developed here in the last decade plus many more role players and decent quality ones to go with. (DD, Eller(trade), Weber, Emelin, etc) Not to mention the ones we've even traded.

But yeah I guess the program is so ineffective. Not saying our current cupboard is filled with top end talent but come on we need to at least draft a few players first before jumping to conclusions. Subban, DD, Weber, Palushaj (soon), White and many more did just come up. You can't replace that amount of talent over night.

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08-10-2011, 01:33 PM
  #60
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Our prospect pool might not be the strongest but I see some good in it. The only gripe i have is the fact that they didn't sign streit traded a 1st and 2nd for tanguay instead and then the domino effect started where they were trading picks and signing players for the the PP. ALA bergeron spacek and schnieder.

But we still have some players who are tradable in Possibly kostitsyn who could fetch us a prospect or first rounder and gorges if emelin and diaz show us they are top talent.

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08-11-2011, 10:19 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
It's extremely weak if only because our "in-NHL" list of young/prospect type players is extremely strong.
This exactly

We may not have a group of blue chip prospects, but you look at our core group of guys and there's alot of talent there. Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Eller these guys are still a few years from even hitting there prime.

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08-12-2011, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I find it laughable when people get their panties in a bunch over people not projecting every forward we draft to be a 1st liner.

Yeah I do think Leblanc will be a 3rd liner. So what? Was he a first overall pick? And having a certain skill set is meaningless in the junior level. If he dominates the AHL maybe I change my mind but nothing outside of personal homerism pegs Leblanc as a 1st liner, 2nd liner at best is where most people think he'll end up. It's only the homers who say he'll definitely be better. So yeah, I don't think it's at all stupid to say he's a potential 3rd liner with 2nd liner upside. He may never even make the NHL. He's a prospect who hasn't had any AHL time yet even and people are penciling him in as a top line winger

It's a tad bit more ridiculous to assume a guy is going to be a top line winger when there's zilch to justify it than it is to say he's likely not going to be one. There's nothing to merit saying he will become that.

I'm an optimist and really do hope you're all right. But let's be realistic here, people are pegging non-Subban caliber prospects as 1st line wingers before they even play 1 AHL game. (And when I say Subban caliber I don't mean draft order, it's pretty easy to identify as he developed really fast. If all of the sudden next year Louis is getting called up due to burning it up of course I'll change my mind, but for now he's done nothing to justify this assumption that he'll be a top liner)
You know what's hard when following prospects. It's the time we have to wait untill they're fully developed or at least closer to what they will be. I never though that plekanec would be a 70 points player when I saw him play his first games in Montreal.Now he might be the most important player on our team.

Leblanc is 20 years old. He's had good seasons in both the NCAA/CHL. He played injured both seasons. He was one of the last cut in his first try for Team Canada U-20, then made it the year after, even if he was injured both years. He had a PPG tournament, which is pretty good. Please don't tell me he will never be a good player because he didn't dominate as much as Schenn (who is more talented and more ready physically for the big league).

I'm pretty sure any poster on these boards would thrive to have a player such as Mike Richards on our team. Good leader. Good skating. Physical, plays with lots of grit. Let's not forget that he has the same height as Leblanc. So people saying Leblanc can't bulk up and become our own version of the ex-fly might be proved wrong. Was Richards thought as a 1st line center when drafted, certainly not. Even is Leblanc becomes a 50 point player, getting that out of the 18th overall's pretty good. And people keep saying that if he will be a third liner producing 40 points. Name me 10 third line players who produced 40+ points last year. If we can afford to have Leblanc on our 3rd line when he'll be on his prime, we'll have a contender of a team, book it.

He's got some pretty good offensive instincts, pretty good hands even though he prefers to grit his way to the net, which is exactly we lack. It's not the height that makes you physical but the way you play. AK is 6' yet he's so strong that he can check Chara.


Last edited by QuebecPride: 08-12-2011 at 04:26 PM.
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08-12-2011, 04:30 PM
  #63
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I have seen multiple times people wanting Conboy on the team in a near future...he's a big guy, but he really is not that good of a player. Can I ask what you guys see in him?

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08-12-2011, 05:04 PM
  #64
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I have seen multiple times people wanting Conboy on the team in a near future...he's a big guy, but he really is not that good of a player. Can I ask what you guys see in him?
People are obsessed with having a tough guy on the team. It will never end.

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08-12-2011, 05:13 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
We didn't draft/develop Cammalleri or Gionta.......we can replace them by the same method we acquired them.PG has done a good job so far. If the team wasn't leading the entire NHL in man games lost over the last 3 seasons we would have been able to hang on to the 2nd round picks that were traded and our prospect pool would be considerably stronger.
It would be a MAJOR mistake for teams to count on that going forward. Teams are now signing most of their good young players and rare are the ones going to hit UFA status. Just look at this summer's crop and next year. There<s almost nothing in them.

Trades will be the way to go going forward. Most UFAs are going to be old players and average players easily replacable.

I expect 1 or 2 ggod players to hit UFA per year going forward with half the league going after them, so getting just 1 will be very difficult.

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08-13-2011, 04:04 PM
  #66
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ESPN thinks we're in fine shape. Which is probably a bad omen, considering what the Hell do they know about hockey?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...rn=nhl-wp10561

Leafs fans are going to have a conniption.

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08-13-2011, 04:26 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Right now we have a very deep prospect pool, especially up front and on defense, there are potentially 20-25 NHLers in the group, obviously some will be 2nd liners, other depth players and others only role players. At this point none project as perennial all-stars but we just promoted Price and Subban in recent years that could be, and Plekanec if he wasn't so underrated should also be considered. Some may develop like Subban and have a steep upwards curve the nerxt couple years.
I think the idea that we may have a Subban in our pool we haven't yet identified (much less "some" prospects of that level) is highly, highly unlikely. Subban 1 year after the draft was far ahead of any of our current prospects in terms of junior success, and his athletic talent was already out of this world. While I like prospects like Bournival and Leblanc very much, even at their best I don't see them ever being the kind of impact player Subban already appears to be, and our prospect quality drops precipitously beyond the top handful of likely NHLers, if not likely first-liners.

As for our current prospect pool having 20-25 bona-fide NHLers, despite all the recent graduations (not to mention losses to other teams/leagues) IMO that's wild-eyed dreaming. Half that number would be an accomplishment, frankly.

But to each his own. Time will tell.

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08-15-2011, 08:58 AM
  #68
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It's not because your prospect pool isn't a giant killer that your franchise is doomed to nosedive for six years.

Prospects can be had via trade and free-agency. For example the Senators got Rundblad, Filatov and Butler that way. Widely considered one of the best prospect pools at that with no one picked in the top 5. Toronto is doing that too with limited success. Tampa picked high a couple times but most of their team is built with trades and free-agency.

If there's trouble with the Habs and you're not competing as much you have the hockey people to pull off something here if you keep drafting smart on top of it.

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