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The Kariya screwjob?

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08-10-2011, 08:52 PM
  #51
Drake1588
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The correct answer is that the team made a business decision tied to a conscious decision to restrict payroll.

They didn't qualify Kariya. That's their right and they didn't "owe" him or anything. He made great money playing for that team; he put up tons of points. Everyone won in his tenure with the Ducks.

Now that goes both ways. They made it perfectly clear he was free to pursue other opportunities. Then he did so. They might have tendered a lesser offer, but he was free to look elsewhere and within his rights to leave. Nothing wrong with that. Ducks fans have no business being ticked off at Kariya either, just as he had no reason to be ticked at the team that made him very wealthy.

Come off the gentleman's agreement nonsense. Don't qualify a player, and he is free to go. On the other hand, Kariya wasn't "owed" $10M when his team was cutting payroll to <$40M. It was perfectly understandable for Anaheim to decide not to keep a guy making 25% or payroll.


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08-10-2011, 08:52 PM
  #52
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As far as I remember, and I could be wrong... but I believe Yzerman, Shanahan and a couple others DID take paycuts to bring Hasek, Hull and Robitaille in for the 2001-2002 season.

As far as Kariya goes, I don't know all that much about the issues. However, I wouldn't say anyone got screwed. If Kariya did make a "gentleman's agreement" then bad on him for backing out. But bad playoff or not, he was the face of the franchise and a solid player throughout his career. He was also a great leader. It should have been on them to get him signed. If they couldn't satisfy Kariya, he had a right to walk. It's a two-way street. I wouldn't say anyone got "screwed" here, two parties just couldn't come to an agreement, unfortunatley it was a star player.

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08-10-2011, 08:54 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Well I'm curious how much salary did he make in 06/07? Because I don't think you can make an argument he was underpaid in 07/08 since he hardly played. Then the next 2 year deal he lived up to but really didn't outplay by a whole lot, then this year he out played his contract by .5-1 million.
I believe it was 2 mil with bonuses.

The point is that you're not going to find Anaheim fans who argue that he took a paycut, and you made a pretty bold claim by saying that has never happened.

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08-10-2011, 09:00 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I believe it was 2 mil with bonuses.

The point is that you're not going to find Anaheim fans who argue that he took a paycut, and you made a pretty bold claim by saying that has never happened.
Maybe I shouldn't have but it's extremely rare. I suppose Selanne is a unique case but in his situation he was determined to stay in Anaheim regardless of how much money he gave up. That's very rare.

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08-10-2011, 09:00 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Well I'm curious how much salary did he make in 06/07? Because I don't think you can make an argument he was underpaid in 07/08 since he hardly played. Then the next 2 year deal he lived up to but really didn't outplay by a whole lot, then this year he out played his contract by .5-1 million.
$3.75M. When he was easily worth $5M+

The next contract was $3.25M in the first year and $2M the second year. He put up 54 goals in 119 games over the two years (a 37 goal per year pace), he was easily worth $4M+ each year.

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08-10-2011, 09:04 PM
  #56
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Long story short, that situation seems fowl.

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08-10-2011, 09:04 PM
  #57
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Looking back at what happened with Kariya and Anaheim you have to believe that the team was in such financial peril that they couldn't afford to even QUALIFY Kariya so they could trade his rights. They let a 50 goal scorer, albeit damaged goods, walk for nothing.

Compare that to what St Louis had to do with Chris Pronger. Making too much money and with the salary cap tightening the screws on payroll, the Blues wanted to restructure his deal too, but I think they realized that Pronger wouldn't go for it. So they qualified him and traded him to Edmonton.

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08-10-2011, 09:09 PM
  #58
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Anaheim fans should be more mad at management than Kariya. I agree with all the posts that take that stance. The whole "handshake agreement" is a bunch of BS made up by bitter fans and media to point the blame elsewhere. If a player wants to move to a different city when he becomes UFA, then he has every right to do so without being branded as a traitor. This is a person's life we're talking about.

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08-10-2011, 09:15 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
Anaheim fans should be more mad at management than Kariya. I agree with all the posts that take that stance. The whole "handshake agreement" is a bunch of BS made up by bitter fans and media to point the blame elsewhere. If a player wants to move to a different city when he becomes UFA, then he has every right to do so without being branded as a traitor. This is a person's life we're talking about.
There were articles around at the time which claimed there was a handshake agreement. I really don't think Murray would have been stupid enough to let him become unrestricted otherwise. He would have qualified him and traded him to one of the numerous teams who would have gladly paid Kariya $10M+ if Kariya didn't agree to take the pay cut. There were definitely sources at the time were claiming that Kariya agreed to take a paycut in order for Anaheim to reunite him and Selanne.

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08-10-2011, 09:25 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
The correct answer is that the team made a business decision tied to a conscious decision to restrict payroll.

They didn't qualify Kariya. That's their right and they didn't "owe" him or anything. He made great money playing for that team; he put up tons of points. Everyone won in his tenure with the Ducks.

Now that goes both ways. They made it perfectly clear he was free to pursue other opportunities. Then he did so. They might have tendered a lesser offer, but he was free to look elsewhere and within his rights to leave. Nothing wrong with that. Ducks fans have no business being ticked off at Kariya either, just as he had no reason to be ticked at the team that made him very wealthy.

Come off the gentleman's agreement nonsense. Don't qualify a player, and he is free to go. On the other hand, Kariya wasn't "owed" $10M when his team was cutting payroll to <$40M. It was perfectly understandable for Anaheim to decide not to keep a guy making 25% or payroll.
I think the fans were more upset with the fact that the team's captain and face of the franchise since day one, coming off a season where his team was one game away from winning the Stanley Cup, chose to sign a contract with a divison rival for much, much less money than he was offered by the Ducks just weeks after he promised the fans a Cup at the parade after the playoffs. I'm sure you can understand why some people might not be too happy after that.

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08-10-2011, 09:26 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Joe Thornton's new contract is a pay cut.
*sigh* let me just start and wrap this conversation up really quickly so it doesn't become a huge thread derail.

TMP:No it's not.

PF:Yes it is he could have got more in free agency

TMP: That doesn't make it a pay cut. He got paid what he's worth.

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08-10-2011, 09:30 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
*sigh* let me just start and wrap this conversation up really quickly so it doesn't become a huge thread derail.

TMP:No it's not.

PF:Yes it is he could have got more in free agency

TMP: That doesn't make it a pay cut. He got paid what he's worth.
Your logic obviously doesn't allow you to say that any player then got a pay cut. Thornton took less than he would have gotten in free agency and less than what the team would have given him and less than what his previous contract was.

Pay cut is obviously not a term that is in your vocabulary if you believe that Thornton was only worth 7 mil. Which obviously begs the question of whether or not you actually know what a pay cut means.

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08-10-2011, 09:35 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Your logic obviously doesn't allow you to say that any player then got a pay cut. Thornton took less than he would have gotten in free agency and less than what the team would have given him and less than what his previous contract was.

Pay cut is obviously not a term that is in your vocabulary if you believe that Thornton was only worth 7 mil. Which obviously begs the question of whether or not you actually know what a pay cut means.
By this definition you can say any player took a paycut. You can say Crosby or Malkin would have got a max deal and they took a pay cut. Would Thornton probably have got more money on the open market? Sure but you don't know that it would be significantly more and honestly with the 10 year deals being thrown around pretty much any player that signs takes a pay cut so there becomes a gray area.

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08-10-2011, 09:39 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
By this definition you can say any player took a paycut. You can say Crosby or Malkin would have got a max deal and they took a pay cut. Would Thornton probably have got more money on the open market? Sure but you don't know that it would be significantly more and honestly with the 10 year deals being thrown around pretty much any player that signs takes a pay cut so there becomes a gray area.
It's really simple. A pay cut, by definition, is the reduction of one's salary. Not a hard concept to grasp. If you take less than what you made the previous year, for whatever reason, it IS a pay cut.

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08-10-2011, 09:40 PM
  #65
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Exactly, if Selanne had wanted to go to the highest bidder after 2005-06 rather than stay in a situation where he felt comfortable in Anaheim, he almost certainly could have earned a lot more money than he took from the Ducks in 2006-07.
But instead he took a paycut to sign with a contender....

Like Kariya did.

People **** on players for taking huge contacts and not caring about winning, and then **** on them for taking paycuts for a chance to win.

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08-10-2011, 09:42 PM
  #66
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Anyone who is over 25 would know why Kariya wasn't at those Olympics. This post just proves everything that everybody here says about you.
So I goofed. Nice to know that I am a topic of conversation though.

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08-10-2011, 09:46 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
But instead he took a paycut to sign with a contender....

Like Kariya did.

People **** on players for taking huge contacts and not caring about winning, and then **** on them for taking paycuts for a chance to win.
It would be a different story if Kariya were playing on a bottom-5 team and decided to go play for a contender, but he was on a team that had just made it to the Cup finals. The fact that Kariya thought the Ducks weren't a contender is a little insulting in itself.

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08-10-2011, 09:47 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
It's really simple. A pay cut, by definition, is the reduction of one's salary. Not a hard concept to grasp. If you take less than what you made the previous year, for whatever reason, it IS a pay cut.
Well Thornton makes pretty much the same money so it's not really a pay cut.

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08-10-2011, 09:48 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
It's really simple. A pay cut, by definition, is the reduction of one's salary. Not a hard concept to grasp. If you take less than what you made the previous year, for whatever reason, it IS a pay cut.
I feel like you guys are seeing paycuts as different definitions

You see it as making less money then you would in other places, thus a paycut.

TMP sees it as taking less money to make your team better, and again, a paycut.

Both definitions are indeed correct, I just feel like PF's definition is a lot more general. I agree with TMP that a paycut is when you take less money then you get from your team, and not the open market.

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08-10-2011, 09:48 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Benny Lava View Post
It would be a different story if Kariya were playing on a bottom-5 team and decided to go play for a contender, but he was on a team that had just made it to the Cup finals. The fact that Kariya thought the Ducks weren't a contender is a little insulting in itself.
Everyone and their mother knew the Ducks werent a contender. There is a reason Giguere got the Smythe despite being on the losing team.

Did anyone think the Oilers would be a contender after their cup run?

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08-10-2011, 09:48 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
But instead he took a paycut to sign with a contender....

Like Kariya did.

People **** on players for taking huge contacts and not caring about winning, and then **** on them for taking paycuts for a chance to win.
Yeah because the Teemu paycut and Kariya promising the fans to go back to the Final the next year but signing somewhere else is the same thing..

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08-10-2011, 09:53 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
Everyone and their mother knew the Ducks werent a contender. There is a reason Giguere got the Smythe despite being on the losing team.

Did anyone think the Oilers would be a contender after their cup run?
Would you say Kariya made a smart decision?

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08-10-2011, 10:00 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Well Thornton makes pretty much the same money so it's not really a pay cut.
Simply ridiculous. Even with an actual definition of the term, you still try to argue it. It's really simple but because it makes you wrong, you're trying to shift the argument. Did Thornton take a pay cut? Yes, he did. 200k per year less than his previous contract and an unknown amount of what any of the 30 teams were actually willing to give him, which was probably at least 500k more per year.

You've been proven dead wrong here.

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08-10-2011, 10:41 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Simply ridiculous. Even with an actual definition of the term, you still try to argue it. It's really simple but because it makes you wrong, you're trying to shift the argument. Did Thornton take a pay cut? Yes, he did. 200k per year less than his previous contract and an unknown amount of what any of the 30 teams were actually willing to give him, which was probably at least 500k more per year.

You've been proven dead wrong here.
Sure but you got me on a technicality. His contract is essentially the exact same and he got paid essentially market value. It seems like you're dying to be right right now.

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08-10-2011, 10:51 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Sure but you got me on a technicality. His contract is essentially the exact same and he got paid essentially market value. It seems like you're dying to be right right now.
His contract is 200k less than his previous one...a pay cut. If you think his market value is only 7 mil, you're underestimating how free agency impacts that number. He would've seen at least 7.5 mil on the open market and that's not essentially the same at all. Your last line is something that can be flipped back at you because you continue to try to rationalize yourself being wrong.

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