HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Phillies' Baseball (MLB): National Leeague Eastern Division Champs

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-11-2011, 05:56 PM
  #251
Yoshimitsu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Joke is on me? With an 11-1 record? I truly am ashamed. You were right when you said it would be "the worst mistake." The team is in ruins!
I really hope you're kidding. It's hard to believe that anyone could be this thick.

First of all, I don't recall saying it would be the "worst mistake," so you should stop posting that. When you quote someone and use quotation marks, it should be something that the person actually said, not something you just made up willy nilly. Thanks.

Secondly, Ibanez has been terrible during this streak, so, quite clearly, the Phillies' recent success has almost nothing to do with Ibanez being in the lineup. Me saying that playing Ibanez over Brown was a mistake has literally nothing to do with the Phillies' 11-1 streak. That you even associated the two tells me that you aren't intelligent enough to even understand basic arguments.

Quote:
RBI are important because, I don't know, you have to hit runs in to win a baseball game?
This is really, really dumb.

Yes, you must "drive in runs" to win a baseball game. The problem is that RBI doesn't actually tell you how good of a hitter someone is, nor does it tell you how good they are at driving in runs. It's simply a compiling stat that is almost entirely dependent on how many opportunities a player has to bat with runners on base. It is more of a measure of the quality of the lineup than it is a measure of the quality of a hitter. Howard has double the RBIs of Victorino; who has been the better hitter this season? The answer is, by a large margin, Victorino.

Like I've said before, just because something isn't completely, 100% worthless does not mean that it is actually worth using. You could commute to work on a horse-drawn carriage. After all, it used to "get the job done." Or, you could use something that was created to remove the limitations of something that became outdated: a car. This is the same principle. There is no reason to use flawed statistics like RBI when there are dozens of better statistics that are freely available for anyone to use.

Yoshimitsu is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 06:06 PM
  #252
JVR21
G
 
JVR21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 7,903
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
I really hope you're kidding. It's hard to believe that anyone could be this thick.

First of all, I don't recall saying it would be the "worst mistake," so you should stop posting that. When you quote someone and use quotation marks, it should be something that the person actually said, not something you just made up willy nilly. Thanks.

Secondly, Ibanez has been terrible during this streak, so, quite clearly, the Phillies' recent success has almost nothing to do with Ibanez being in the lineup. Me saying that playing Ibanez over Brown was a mistake has literally nothing to do with the Phillies' 11-1 streak. That you even associated the two tells me that you aren't intelligent enough to even understand basic arguments.

This is really, really dumb.

Yes, you must "drive in runs" to win a baseball game. The problem is that RBI doesn't actually tell you how good of a hitter someone is, nor does it tell you how good they are at driving in runs. It's simply a compiling stat that is almost entirely dependent on how many opportunities a player has to bat with runners on base. It is more of a measure of the quality of the lineup than it is a measure of the quality of a hitter. Howard has double the RBIs of Victorino; who has been the better hitter this season? The answer is, by a large margin, Victorino.

Like I've said before, just because something isn't completely, 100% worthless does not mean that it is actually worth using. You could commute to work on a horse-drawn carriage. After all, it used to "get the job done." Or, you could use something that was created to remove the limitations of something that became outdated: a car. This is the same principle. There is no reason to use flawed statistics like RBI when there are dozens of better statistics that are freely available for anyone to use.
Quote:
This is a **** trade. Pence is good, but he isn't worth their two best prospects. I'm just glad that Brown is still on the Phillies.

My nightmare scenario is if this forces Brown back to the minors.
Quote:
Oh. Yeah. Benching or sending Brown to the minors in favor of Ibanez would be an awful decision.
Quote:
If Brown topped out as Hunter Pence, he would considered a disappointment.
....

We've all said dumb stuff, but IMO you overlook facts that are right in your face and stuff that actually happens on the field for stats that don't amount to anything for a baseball club.

JVR21 is online now  
Old
08-11-2011, 06:09 PM
  #253
Yoshimitsu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
....

We've all said dumb stuff, but IMO you overlook facts that are right in your face and stuff that actually happens on the field for stats that don't amount to anything for a baseball club.
I said that demoting Brown in favor of Ibanez was stupid. It was, and is. Brown is a better player than Ibanez. Now, either show me where I said it would be the "worst mistake" or kindly shut the **** up.

Furthmore, I'll take your lack of a rebuttal as admittance that you don't know what you're talking about. Come back when you can formulate an argument that isn't idiotic.

Yoshimitsu is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 06:10 PM
  #254
GirouxGiroux
Visioneer
 
GirouxGiroux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Delaware
Country: United States
Posts: 2,855
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
Yes, you must "drive in runs" to win a baseball game. The problem is that RBI doesn't actually tell you how good of a hitter someone is, nor does it tell you how good they are at driving in runs. It's simply a compiling stat that is almost entirely dependent on how many opportunities a player has to bat with runners on base. It is more of a measure of the quality of the lineup than it is a measure of the quality of a hitter. Howard has double the RBIs of Victorino; who has been the better hitter this season? The answer is, by a large margin, Victorino.

Like I've said before, just because something isn't completely, 100% worthless does not mean that it is actually worth using. You could commute to work on a horse-drawn carriage. After all, it used to "get the job done." Or, you could use something that was created to remove the limitations of something that became outdated: a car. This is the same principle. There is no reason to use flawed statistics like RBI when there are dozens of better statistics that are freely available for anyone to use.
You could, for example, point out that Howard's OPS rises to .919 with RISP, and 1.047 with RISP and two outs.

GirouxGiroux is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 06:12 PM
  #255
Yoshimitsu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirouxGiroux View Post
You could, for example, point out that Howard's OPS rises to .919 with RISP, and 1.047 with RISP and two outs.
That would be better than using RBI, yes. It's also irrelevant to the discussion as to whether or not RBI is worth using.

Yoshimitsu is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 06:15 PM
  #256
McNasty
Registered User
 
McNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rutgers
Country: United States
Posts: 5,754
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
Yes, you must "drive in runs" to win a baseball game. The problem is that RBI doesn't actually tell you how good of a hitter someone is, nor does it tell you how good they are at driving in runs. It's simply a compiling stat that is almost entirely dependent on how many opportunities a player has to bat with runners on base. It is more of a measure of the quality of the lineup than it is a measure of the quality of a hitter. Howard has double the RBIs of Victorino; who has been the better hitter this season? The answer is, by a large margin, Victorino.
I agree that RBIs are not the end all be all statistic, however it's also not fair to simply discredit them entirely. Ryan Howard is a very good run producer and has been for his entire career. Victorino has been a better hitter, but Ryan Howard is a better run producer because he hits better when runners are on base. Victorino hits .330 when the bases are empty, .279 with runners on, .274 with RISP. Howard hits .219 empty, .285 on, .311 RISP. So yes Victorino might be the better hitter, but Ryan Howard is a better choice if you are looking to drive runners in (which is why he's in the 4 spot and Victorino is best suited at the top of the lineup).

The point I'm making here is that RBIs are only overrated when you only look at RBIs. Ryan Howard throughout his career has been a good run producer because he is a better hitter when runners are on base.

McNasty is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 06:16 PM
  #257
McNasty
Registered User
 
McNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rutgers
Country: United States
Posts: 5,754
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirouxGiroux View Post
You could, for example, point out that Howard's OPS rises to .919 with RISP, and 1.047 with RISP and two outs.
Beaten to it...

McNasty is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 06:29 PM
  #258
Yoshimitsu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,079
vCash: 500
Simply citing batting average with runners in scoring position has very little value, by the way. It completely ignores half of the equation, which is getting on base so that you can be driven in. When you factor in both, Victorino has been responsible for many more runs than Howard, and it really isn't close.

Howard has driven in more runs because of where he bats in the lineup. That's it.

Yoshimitsu is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 06:40 PM
  #259
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
Simply citing batting average with runners in scoring position has very little value, by the way. It completely ignores half of the equation, which is getting on base so that you can be driven in. When you factor in both, Victorino has been responsible for many more runs than Howard, and it really isn't close.

Howard has driven in more runs because of where he bats in the lineup. That's it.
Or can we say that Howard bats where he does because of the runs he bats in?

... I'm just sayin'.

Sawdalite is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 06:41 PM
  #260
JVR21
G
 
JVR21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 7,903
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Or can we say that Howard bats where he does because of the runs he bats in?

... I'm just sayin'.
Where's the absurd stat that supports this ridiculous notion?

JVR21 is online now  
Old
08-11-2011, 06:49 PM
  #261
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Where's the absurd stat that supports this ridiculous notion?
Near the one that details clutch hitters.

Sawdalite is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 06:51 PM
  #262
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
Simply citing batting average with runners in scoring position has very little value, by the way. It completely ignores half of the equation, which is getting on base so that you can be driven in. When you factor in both, Victorino has been responsible for many more runs than Howard, and it really isn't close.

Howard has driven in more runs because of where he bats in the lineup. That's it.
could i get some numbers please, not trying to be a d!ck but thats not what i get when i look at some of the basic stuff like HR, runs scored and RBI (all for this season).

howard has 91 rbi w/ 62 runs scored and 25 homers. so add 91+62 and you get 153 then subtract 25 (so you don't count the same runs twice) and you get 128. so howard was in some way involved in 128 of the phillies runs this year. victorino has 41 rbi w/ 71 runs scored and 12 homers. following the same logic you get an even 100 if i'm not mistaken. granted shane has about 90 less ABs then howard but i don't know if he would make up the 28 difference in those 90 ABs. even so it would be close imo.

what am i doing wrong?


Last edited by FlyersFan61290: 08-11-2011 at 06:58 PM.
FlyersFan61290 is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 09:07 PM
  #263
Yoshimitsu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
could i get some numbers please, not trying to be a d!ck but thats not what i get when i look at some of the basic stuff like HR, runs scored and RBI (all for this season).

howard has 91 rbi w/ 62 runs scored and 25 homers. so add 91+62 and you get 153 then subtract 25 (so you don't count the same runs twice) and you get 128. so howard was in some way involved in 128 of the phillies runs this year. victorino has 41 rbi w/ 71 runs scored and 12 homers. following the same logic you get an even 100 if i'm not mistaken. granted shane has about 90 less ABs then howard but i don't know if he would make up the 28 difference in those 90 ABs. even so it would be close imo.

what am i doing wrong?
Nothing. I probably shouldn't have phrased it that way.

What I meant is, in a context neutral environment, Victorino would contribute much more offense to his team than Howard, because Victorino been much better at the plate. That's the crux of the RBI debate; players should not be penalized or rewarded for things that are out of their control.

A batter's job is to hit. That's it. He can't control whether there are runners on base when he comes to bat, nor can he control whether or not his teammates drive him in when he reaches base. To say that Howard has been a more productive hitter than Victorino might be true, but that's only because he has far more opportunities to be productive. An entire lineup of hitters with a .932 OPS (Victorino) would score many more runs than an entire lineup of hitters with an .829 OPS (Howard).

Yoshimitsu is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 09:41 PM
  #264
McNasty
Registered User
 
McNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rutgers
Country: United States
Posts: 5,754
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
Nothing. I probably shouldn't have phrased it that way.

What I meant is, in a context neutral environment, Victorino would contribute much more offense to his team than Howard, because Victorino been much better at the plate. That's the crux of the RBI debate; players should not be penalized or rewarded for things that are out of their control.

A batter's job is to hit. That's it. He can't control whether there are runners on base when he comes to bat, nor can he control whether or not his teammates drive him in when he reaches base. To say that Howard has been a more productive hitter than Victorino might be true, but that's only because he has far more opportunities to be productive. An entire lineup of hitters with a .932 OPS (Victorino) would score many more runs than an entire lineup of hitters with an .829 OPS (Howard).
Could you not make the same argument that a team full of guys hitting .311 with RISP would score many more runs than hitting .274 w/ RISP?

Obviously Howard gets more chances to drive in runs because of his position in the order, but he bats 4th because of how good he is at driving in runs. Like I said RBI's aren't a very good stat for measuring efficiency, but you can't deny that Howard is one of the best in the game at driving in runs.

McNasty is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 09:52 PM
  #265
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
Nothing. I probably shouldn't have phrased it that way.

What I meant is, in a context neutral environment, Victorino would contribute much more offense to his team than Howard, because Victorino been much better at the plate. That's the crux of the RBI debate; players should not be penalized or rewarded for things that are out of their control.

A batter's job is to hit. That's it. He can't control whether there are runners on base when he comes to bat, nor can he control whether or not his teammates drive him in when he reaches base. To say that Howard has been a more productive hitter than Victorino might be true, but that's only because he has far more opportunities to be productive. An entire lineup of hitters with a .932 OPS (Victorino) would score many more runs than an entire lineup of hitters with an .829 OPS (Howard).
Then it would only make sense that when Shane batted down in he lineup he was batting in more runs... And it would only make sense that sluggers with better batting averages would have higher RBI stats from the same fourth slot. The only thing is that is not always the case, and I really don't think you can place the reason for that with not having better averaged batters ahead of them.

Sabre-stats my prove otherwise but over the ages it has appeared to people who have watched the games that some players are just more apt to hit in runs than others are... Howards numbers with players on and players in scoring position that was posted here earlier tells me that Ryan is just one of those players... and I believe the same stats for Shane showed he was not better in those situations.

There is a reason Charlie puts Howard's name in the cleanup slot and not Victorino's... even when Ryan was out of the lineup. Charlie is old-school but he make the right decisions more often than not... RBIs my be worthless stats but in my mind some players are more apt to provide them than others... and some are better at getting on base and moving up the bases. It has to be more than merely opportunities, it has to also be converting the opportunities when in that position.

Sawdalite is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 09:53 PM
  #266
Clown Baby
Registered User
 
Clown Baby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,604
vCash: 500
Phillies are 11-0 when Hunter Pence gets a hit ... 0-1 when he doesn't.

Clown Baby is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 09:56 PM
  #267
Yoshimitsu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Could you not make the same argument that a team full of guys hitting .311 with RISP would score many more runs than hitting .274 w/ RISP?
No, because the hypothetical team full of Ryan Howards would have fewer opportunities to drive in runs because he reaches base far less often than Victorino. Victorino's OBP is 50 points higher. That's huge.

Quote:
Obviously Howard gets more chances to drive in runs because of his position in the order, but he bats 4th because of how good he is at driving in runs.
Not necessarily. Howard bats cleanup because it best suits his skill set. That doesn't mean that there aren't other players who could do the same job he's doing.

Quote:
Like I said RBI's aren't a very good stat for measuring efficiency, but you can't deny that Howard is one of the best in the game at driving in runs.
Ryan Howard is a good run producer because he's a good hitter. There's no denying that. However, Shane Victorino is a better hitter, and everything being equal, would produce more runs than Ryan Howard. Despite what some people in this thread would have you believe, the numbers don't lie.

Yoshimitsu is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 10:12 PM
  #268
Yoshimitsu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Then it would only make sense that when Shane batted down in he lineup he was batting in more runs... And it would only make sense that sluggers with better batting averages would have higher RBI stats from the same fourth slot. The only thing is that is not always the case, and I really don't think you can place the reason for that with not having better averaged batters ahead of them.
I don't understand what you're trying to say in this paragraph.

Quote:
Sabre-stats my prove otherwise but over the ages it has appeared to people who have watched the games that some players are just more apt to hit in runs than others are... Howards numbers with players on and players in scoring position that was posted here earlier tells me that Ryan is just one of those players... and I believe the same stats for Shane showed he was not better in those situations.

There is a reason Charlie puts Howard's name in the cleanup slot and not Victorino's... even when Ryan was out of the lineup. Charlie is old-school but he make the right decisions more often than not... RBIs my be worthless stats but in my mind some players are more apt to provide them than others... and some are better at getting on base and moving up the bases. It has to be more than merely opportunities, it has to also be converting the opportunities when in that position.
Whether Howard is superior at the specific task of driving in runs isn't really the point, because driving in runs doesn't encompass everything that is required in scoring runs. Someone has to get on base to be driven in. When you think about it that way, I don't see how anyone could argue that a player like Victorino wouldn't be worth more runs to a team than a player like Howard.


Last edited by Yoshimitsu: 08-11-2011 at 10:23 PM.
Yoshimitsu is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 10:14 PM
  #269
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
No, because the hypothetical team full of Ryan Howards would have fewer opportunities to drive in runs because he reaches base far less often than Victorino. Victorino's OBP is 50 points higher. That's huge.

Not necessarily. Howard bats cleanup because it best suits his skill set. That doesn't mean that there aren't other players who could do the same job he's doing.

Ryan Howard is a good run producer because he's a good hitter. There's no denying that. However, Shane Victorino is a better hitter, and everything being equal, would produce more runs than Ryan Howard. Despite what some people in this thread would have you believe, the numbers don't lie.
But doesn't' the numbers that don't lie saying that Victorino doesn't hit better when given the situation -- he hits less with runners on and in scoring position -- and Howard hits better? And also Ryan's being able to pop more out has to give him the advantage in similar situation, doesn't' it?

There are reasons players are better suited for certain slots in the lineup... reasons beyond opportunities. Some players given the same situations just do better with the chance. Plugging in players on the same team will not produce the same results, even if it is a player with a better batting average.

Sawdalite is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 10:21 PM
  #270
Yoshimitsu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,079
vCash: 500
We are getting caught up in semantics now. Driving in runs (i.e. RBI) != producing runs.

Yoshimitsu is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 10:31 PM
  #271
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
I don't understand what you're trying to say in this paragraph.
I'm saying that your theory shows that a better batting average would produce more RBIs in similar circumstances... and that is not often the case. There are players who produce RBIs more often than others, even when they have lower batting averages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
Whether Howard is superior at the specific task of driving in runs isn't really the point, because driving in runs doesn't encompass everything that is required in scoring runs. Someone has to get on base to be driven in. When you think about it that way, I don't see how anyone could argue that a player like Victorino would be worth more runs to a team than a player like Howard.
The only ways players can get on and knock themselves in is through home runs and hits combined with steals... or forcing errors. All other times players can just get on base and put themselves in the best position to score through being hit in or sacrificed... With that Shane can only do so much and requires help to score. At best you may say that they are equal -- the able setter and RBI man -- but to say Shane is worth more is to me false... without players like Howard hitting him in he will be stranded on base.

Howard can better hit homers thus scoring himself... and he can get on base with a hit or walk or intentional walk, and be hit in. Ryan with the better chance of hitting one out, as well as getting knocked in, can be looked at as being more valuable... And he is often high in the MPV voting which Victorino isn't.

Howard is where he is for good reason, IMO.

Sawdalite is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 10:34 PM
  #272
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
We are getting caught up in semantics now. Driving in runs (i.e. RBI) != producing runs.
Only a piece of it... just as a player getting on and moving up is only part of producing runs.

There is no doubt that it is a team game... I don't believe anyone is arguing that fact... IMO, what we are arguing is dancers dancing and singers singing.

Sawdalite is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 10:37 PM
  #273
BleedOrange
BuildThroughTheDraft
 
BleedOrange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Oshawa Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,084
vCash: 500
Passion for baseball follows Pence off the field

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com...#disqus_thread

BleedOrange is online now  
Old
08-11-2011, 10:43 PM
  #274
Yoshimitsu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
I'm saying that your theory shows that a better batting average would produce more RBIs in similar circumstances... and that is not often the case. There are players who produce RBIs more often than others, even when they have lower batting averages.
Players like Howard, who consistently hit better with RISP, are very, very rare. He's an exception, actually.

Quote:
The only ways players can get on and knock themselves in is through home runs and hits combined with steals... or forcing errors. All other times players can just get on base and put themselves in the best position to score through being hit in or sacrificed... With that Shane can only do so much and requires help to score. At best you may say that they are equal -- the able setter and RBI man -- but to say Shane is worth more is to me false... without players like Howard hitting him in he will be stranded on base.
I'm sorry, but this really isn't arguable.

Average:

Victorino: .312
Howard: .252

OBP:

Victorino: .391
Howard: .341

Slugging:

Victorino: .542
Howard: .489

OPS+:

Victorino: 152
Howard: 124

Literally the only thing that Howard does better is hit home runs. Victorino is quite a bit ahead in every other category, and that is without citing any sabremetric stats, which paint an even larger divide between the two players.


Quote:
Howard can better hit homers thus scoring himself... and he can get on base with a hit or walk or intentional walk, and be hit in. Ryan with the better chance of hitting one out, as well as getting knocked in, can be looked at as being more valuable... And he is often high in the MPV voting which Victorino isn't.
Look at the stats above. Victorino has been a vastly superior hitter this season. Howard might do a better job at the specific task of driving in runs, but Victorino is much better at getting on base, which is just as important in run creation.

Citing MVP voting is meaningless because the baseball writers association is full of idiots. With that being said, Victorino will, at the very least, finish top 10 in MVP voting this season.

Yoshimitsu is offline  
Old
08-11-2011, 11:24 PM
  #275
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,079
vCash: 500
i totally agree one is just as important as the other (getting on base and driving in runs). and i think we can all agree that shane is the better overall hitter but howard is better at driving in runs. that is in no way belittling shane, vic is just as important in scoring runs and consequently winning games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedorange View Post
nice article, i read it earlier today. glad to hear utley is still a leader as he has been in years past. if only all the phils played as hard as he and pence. can't tell you how annoyed i get seeing rollins, vic and howard among others jog down the first base line after a ground out or pop up. in the end they are the best team in baseball so i guess i shouldn't complain


Last edited by FlyersFan61290: 08-11-2011 at 11:50 PM.
FlyersFan61290 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:29 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.