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Leino, the debate concerning overpayment of UFA's and the Flyers approach?

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Old
08-11-2011, 08:20 PM
  #51
VanSciver
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
woops, i thought you said suter there for a second...yes i'd pay for weber. BUT i expect nashville to have trouble with signing him, so a trade could be better. (id prefer a trade)

You clearly said sign Weber in your post, and I clearly said Weber in my reply asking you if your prepared to pay the compensation. You simply weren't aware of Weber's future contract status.

Who are the Flyers going to trade to get Weber? Because you can guarantee it's going to have include Schenn or Couturier if not both. Do you still prefer a trade?


Last edited by VanSciver: 08-11-2011 at 08:31 PM.
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08-11-2011, 09:01 PM
  #52
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2012 Notable UFA Defensemen

Ryan Suter
Nicklas Lidstrom
Barret Jackman
Tim Gleason
Bryan Allen
Greg Zanon
Niklas Kronwall
Brad Stuart
Fedor Tyutin
Francois Beauchemin
Dennis Wideman
John-Michael Liles
Johnny Boychuck

Braydon Coburn*
Matt Carle*

2013 Notable UFA Defensemen

Shea Weber
Lubomir Visnovsky
Alexander Edler
Tobias Enstrom
Sergei Gonchar
Ron Hainsey
Mark Streit
Robyn Regehr
Ryan Whitney
Ian White
Marek Zidlicky
Marc-Edouard Vlasic

Kimmo Timonen*
Matt Walker*
Andreas Lilja*

Obviously, Suter and Weber are the prized pickups, the real question is can we afford one / both? and if not then who are the contingencies.

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08-11-2011, 09:05 PM
  #53
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I imagine we'll be competing with Detroit as well. That's stiff competition.

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08-11-2011, 09:50 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't think he's played his natural position in the NHL, so I'm interested to see how good he is at it. This team had too much center depth for him t play there.
They are counting on him carrying one of their scoring lines, but does he have the strength and defensive awareness to do it? We'll see.

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08-11-2011, 10:10 PM
  #55
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They are counting on him carrying one of their scoring lines, but does he have the strength and defensive awareness to do it? We'll see.
My thinking as well. We know he can be a threat on offense, but it's the defensive aspect that remains to be seen.

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08-11-2011, 10:44 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
You clearly said sign Weber in your post, and I clearly said Weber in my reply asking you if your prepared to pay the compensation. You simply weren't aware of Weber's future contract status.

Who are the Flyers going to trade to get Weber? Because you can guarantee it's going to have include Schenn or Couturier if not both. Do you still prefer a trade?
yea, sign weber and suter. people forget suter is already an UFA...but by signing him we can attract weber as well.

if next year weber signs a 1 year deal, is he a RFA after that?

(last i checked suter will be an UFA in 2012, and weber will be an UFA in 2013...anyone want to confirm/deny that?)

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08-12-2011, 08:00 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
yea, sign weber and suter. people forget suter is already an UFA...but by signing him we can attract weber as well.

if next year weber signs a 1 year deal, is he a RFA after that?

(last i checked suter will be an UFA in 2012, and weber will be an UFA in 2013...anyone want to confirm/deny that?)

Your post I replied to said nothing about Suter. And no, people aren't forgetting that Suter is already a UFA. He is not a UFA already. Your the only one on this thread who had incorrect info regarding a player's contract status. This is the information age. Capgeek.com has all the info needed on player's contract status.

How do we get the Cap space to afford both Weber and Suter? And your nuts if you think Nashville is going to let both of them walk away.

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08-12-2011, 08:10 AM
  #58
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Everyone remember we have more money because bonuses on Schenn and Bob's contracts only count towards the cap this season. We gain extra space when the CBA is renewed.

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08-12-2011, 09:00 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by o Hamhuis 2 x View Post
Everyone remember we have more money because bonuses on Schenn and Bob's contracts only count towards the cap this season. We gain extra space when the CBA is renewed.
First of all, no one knows if anything is going to be changed in the new CBA. Secondly, you don't gain extra space. You have the option to use the bonus cushion, if it exists in the next CBA, to carry the bonus money over to the following Season. It's pay me now, or pay me later. There really is no extra space.

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08-12-2011, 09:08 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
First of all, no one knows if anything is going to be changed in the new CBA. Secondly, you don't gain extra space. You have the option to use the bonus cushion, if it exists in the next CBA, to carry the bonus money over to the following Season. It's pay me now, or pay me later. There really is no extra space.
These bonuses wouldn't count against the cap until they are reached though, except this year. Correct?

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08-12-2011, 09:27 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by o Hamhuis 2 x View Post
These bonuses wouldn't count against the cap until they are reached though, except this year. Correct?
Yes and no. A team can use the bonus cushion to be Cap compliant, when it is available. All Cap compliant means is that a team can show that is on pace to be at or under whatever that team's Upper Limit is, which can effectively change depending on players placed on LTIR.
But it's actually opposite as far as bonuses. They do count against the Cap until it's shown that they won't be reached in that Season.

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08-12-2011, 09:46 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
First of all, no one knows if anything is going to be changed in the new CBA. Secondly, you don't gain extra space. You have the option to use the bonus cushion, if it exists in the next CBA, to carry the bonus money over to the following Season. It's pay me now, or pay me later. There really is no extra space.
Actually yes there is. It all depends on the targets that the player achieves. If schenn doesn't become a selke, stanley cup art ross winning player then his cap hit isn't 3.5 million.

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08-12-2011, 09:56 AM
  #63
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Actually yes there is. It all depends on the targets that the player achieves. If schenn doesn't become a selke, stanley cup art ross winning player then his cap hit isn't 3.5 million.
That's what I meant. I figured there were some highly unlikely achievements to attain to pay a rookie $3.5 mil

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08-12-2011, 10:09 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Actually yes there is. It all depends on the targets that the player achieves. If schenn doesn't become a selke, stanley cup art ross winning player then his cap hit isn't 3.5 million.
Are you aware of the difference between schedule A and schedule B bonuses? Again, a players cap hit never changes. The cap charge to the team for a player with performance bonuses can change. But not until it is determined that those bonuses will not be met. That's can't be determined until well into the Season, closer to the end.

And let's use some common sense here. When are those awards given out? Well after the Season, and after the playoffs. When cap accounting for that Season is done. So how can that factor into this Season's Cap? Please read the CBA and what categories there are for a players for schdule A performance bonuses. Schedule B bonuses are paid by the League and only count against the Cap if it is written into a players contract.

And bonuses for winning the Stanley Cup, or the Art Ross are not available to a player. Please read the CBA or go to the websites such as Capgeek.com. All the info is there


Last edited by VanSciver: 08-12-2011 at 10:19 AM.
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08-12-2011, 10:31 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Are you aware of the difference between schedule A and schedule B bonuses? Again, a players cap hit never changes. The cap charge to the team for a player with performance bonuses can change. But not until it is determined that those bonuses will not be met. That's can't be determined until well into the Season, closer to the end.

And let's use some common sense here. When are those awards given out? Well after the Season, and after the playoffs. When cap accounting for that Season is done. So how can that factor into this Season's Cap? Please read the CBA and what categories there are for a players for schdule A performance bonuses. Schedule B bonuses are paid by the League and only count against the Cap if it is written into a players contract.

And bonuses for winning the Stanley Cup, or the Art Ross are not available to a player. Please read the CBA or go to the websites such as Capgeek.com. All the info is there
I actually thought it started with the base contract and then grew as the player achieves his bonuses.

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08-12-2011, 10:52 AM
  #66
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I actually thought it started with the base contract and then grew as the player achieves his bonuses.
Nope it's the opposite.

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08-12-2011, 11:26 AM
  #67
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Nope it's the opposite.
Oh. Well that's stupid. Why make it count towards the team's salary if they didn't even earn it yet?

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08-12-2011, 11:29 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Are you aware of the difference between schedule A and schedule B bonuses? Again, a players cap hit never changes. The cap charge to the team for a player with performance bonuses can change. But not until it is determined that those bonuses will not be met. That's can't be determined until well into the Season, closer to the end.

And let's use some common sense here. When are those awards given out? Well after the Season, and after the playoffs. When cap accounting for that Season is done. So how can that factor into this Season's Cap? Please read the CBA and what categories there are for a players for schdule A performance bonuses. Schedule B bonuses are paid by the League and only count against the Cap if it is written into a players contract.

And bonuses for winning the Stanley Cup, or the Art Ross are not available to a player. Please read the CBA or go to the websites such as Capgeek.com. All the info is there
Look i just picked those out as random things .

I thought the bonus cushion was in place for this exact reason.

Schenn's salary at the moment is 3.5. I'm not sure how many bonus's are on it and dont have time to look, but lets say its 2.5 million.

The bonus cushion allows you to defer that 2.5 untill next year. If the player does not reach the bonus targets, then nothing is taken on next year. So the salary cap hit for the first season is 1.5?

Isn't that how it works.

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08-12-2011, 11:52 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Look i just picked those out as random things .

I thought the bonus cushion was in place for this exact reason.

Schenn's salary at the moment is 3.5. I'm not sure how many bonus's are on it and dont have time to look, but lets say its 2.5 million.

The bonus cushion allows you to defer that 2.5 untill next year. If the player does not reach the bonus targets, then nothing is taken on next year. So the salary cap hit for the first season is 1.5?

Isn't that how it works.
In the end yes, but again, a team only gains the Cap space for bonuses not met by a player when it is determined that it is unlikely that the player will meet those bonuses later in the Season. In a Season where the bonus cushion is available, a team may use that to gain cap space and remain cap compliant. Remember, being at or below the Upper Limit, and being Cap compliant, isn't always the same thing.

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Oh. Well that's stupid. Why make it count towards the team's salary if they didn't even earn it yet?

It's stupid huh? Not if you understand how the Cap works and think about it. Here's a hypothetical. Let's say it's set up like you said, and it doesn';t count until it's earned. Team A has a player with a base salary of 1M and bonuses worth 1M. They only have to account for his base salary, and they sign players and are 500K under the Cap when the Season ends. Well that player ends up earning those bonuses in the final week of the Season. How does the team stay under the Cap and fit in the other 500K? With no bonus cushion available?


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08-12-2011, 12:02 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
In the end yes, but again, a team only gains the Cap space for bonuses not met by a player when it is determined that it is unlikely that the player will meet those bonuses later in the Season. In a Season where the bonus cushion is available, a team may use that to gain cap space and remain cap compliant. Remember, being at or below the Upper Limit, and being Cap compliant, isn't always the same thing.
Which is exactly what I wrote above. Why do you just look for arguments?

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08-12-2011, 12:18 PM
  #71
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In the end yes, but again, a team only gains the Cap space for bonuses not met by a player when it is determined that it is unlikely that the player will meet those bonuses later in the Season. In a Season where the bonus cushion is available, a team may use that to gain cap space and remain cap compliant. Remember, being at or below the Upper Limit, and being Cap compliant, isn't always the same thing.




It's stupid huh? Not if you understand how the Cap works and think about it. Here's a hypothetical. Let's say it's set up like you said, and it doesn';t count until it's earned. Team A has a player with a base salary of 1M and bonuses worth 1M. They only have to account for his base salary, and they sign players and are 500K under the Cap when the Season ends. Well that player ends up earning those bonuses in the final week of the Season. How does the team stay under the Cap and fit in the other 500K? With no bonus cushion available?
you aren't understanding me. They should start at the minimum (having in mind what he COULD earn) and as it starts getting to the point that he WON'T get them, they can start doing something with the cap space. Either way its stupid and there should be a bonus cushion again.

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08-12-2011, 12:53 PM
  #72
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Which is exactly what I wrote above. Why do you just look for arguments?
No it's not exactly what you wrote above. If you understood how the Cap workds, you wouldn't say that. There is no argument, one person is informed, and one person isn't.

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Originally Posted by o Hamhuis 2 x View Post
you aren't understanding me. They should start at the minimum (having in mind what he COULD earn) and as it starts getting to the point that he WON'T get them, they can start doing something with the cap space. Either way its stupid and there should be a bonus cushion again.
I'm understanding you completely. What your not understanding is why it can't be that way, and why there is no bonus cushion this year.

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08-12-2011, 01:37 PM
  #73
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No it's not exactly what you wrote above. If you understood how the Cap workds, you wouldn't say that. There is no argument, one person is informed, and one person isn't.



I'm understanding you completely. What your not understanding is why it can't be that way, and why there is no bonus cushion this year.
Lol you are having a laugh right? Ijust proved that I wrote exactly what you said, and yet i'm ill-informed. You are such an egotistical pillock

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08-12-2011, 03:06 PM
  #74
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Lol you are having a laugh right? Ijust proved that I wrote exactly what you said, and yet i'm ill-informed. You are such an egotistical pillock
Yes, your post talking about bonuses for the Art Ross and winning the Stanley Cup proves that you are uninformed. As well as your obvious complete lack of understanding of the CBA concerning bonuses.

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08-12-2011, 03:33 PM
  #75
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I thought Buffalo made a great signing. They essentially swapped out the useless, invisible Tim Connolly for Ville. He's going to do great there with those Buffalo wingers. It was a genius move in my opinion.

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