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08-11-2011, 12:08 AM
  #51
GopherState
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLjunior View Post
I never implied that 1st rounders don't come the NCAA, the Seadogs would win against these NCAA teams, as would the Missisauga majors, not every CHL team is as young as the Seadogs were.


To say a that a team with 5 1st round picks would get schooled by
Minnesota-Duluth is ludicrous.


Huberdeau will be able to pull off
the same **** in the NHL, wait 5 years and Tomas Jurco will do some of the same **** that Datsyuk does.



Top NCAA team can give the the top CHL teams a run for their
money but the skill level of the CHL is far superior.



Add in that many top American prospects are headed for CHL teams.

If the level of play in the NCAA was so high then why did Jack Campell and John Gibson choose the OHL over BU ?

Adam Erne and Brendan Shea both chose CHL.

If the CHL is a lower caliber of play then why are so many top prospects playing there ?
No it's a ****ing maturity issue. If teams led by 18 and 19 year-old first round picks were always the best college teams then the Gophers would have 9 NCAA titles this decade instead of 2.

Now seriously, why the **** is this a discussion? The Wild aren't going to suggest to their collegiate prospects to take the Canadian route and they're taking their time with Coyle at BU. Lets embrace the fact they aren't rushing a prospect for once and want to let someone be a better teammate.

Also MTLjuniors as a side note, you're mixing up BU with Michigan for Campbell and Gibson.

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08-11-2011, 12:11 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by BuddyMcCormick View Post
I personally don't care who would win, just the reasoning behind why the CHL will win is... not solid. That's like saying Aeros v. Sea Dogs. The Sea Dogs would win because they had first rounders on their team.

Read between the lines, it's a
measure of their depth.



@ Gopher State my bad and in that case they're not idiots for turning down their scholarships.

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08-11-2011, 12:28 AM
  #53
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CHL teams are closer to the level of the USHL than they are the NCAA. The 2009-10 USNDP team had atleast 5 first rounders on it, and finished at the bottom of the USHL.

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08-11-2011, 12:30 AM
  #54
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MTL, I don't think anyone disagrees that the top CHL teams might have more talent then UMD, although it's close. The difference is, the players on the UMD squad are 18-24 years old, while the Seadogs players are 16-20 years old. The players are just not mature enough to win 9 out of 10 as you stated earlier in the thread.

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08-11-2011, 07:13 AM
  #55
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you want high draft pick density example look no further than the oilers. the maturity relative to other teams might have something to do with the fact that they've sucked hard despite many great young players? they aren't winning 9 out of 10 of anything any time soon.

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08-11-2011, 07:55 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLjunior View Post
I never implied that 1st rounders don't come the NCAA, the Seadogs would win against these NCAA teams, as would the Missisauga majors, not every CHL team is as young as the Seadogs were.


To say a that a team with 5 1st round picks would get schooled by
Minnesota-Duluth is ludicrous.


Huberdeau will be able to pull off
the same **** in the NHL, wait 5 years and Tomas Jurco will do some of the same **** that Datsyuk does.



Top NCAA team can give the the top CHL teams a run for their
money but the skill level of the CHL is far superior.



Add in that many top American prospects are headed for CHL teams.

If the level of play in the NCAA was so high then why did Jack Campell and John Gibson choose the OHL over BU ?

Adam Erne and Brendan Shea both chose CHL.

If the CHL is a lower caliber of play then why are so many top prospects playing there ?
You know that 05-06 Fighting Sioux team Victorious Secret mentioned? They finished third in the WCHA. Their WCHA record was 13-10-5, even though they had 5 first rounders. If a team with Toews, Zajac, and Oshie wasn't even able to maintain a winning record in the WCHA, you might want to revise your claim that having 5 first rounders means the Sea Dogs have "more depth."

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08-11-2011, 08:34 AM
  #57
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I'm quite confident last season's Sioux squad would dispatch any junior squad fairly easily. Every season I watch the Sioux "B" line-up run circles around the US Dev team in an exhibition game. That's nearly make-up of the age level on junior squads and that Dev team generally has every bit of "skill" you can find on any random junior team.

Checking lines in the NCAA would for the most part slow the top lines of most all CHL teams. Those same junior squads wouldn't have any answer for the top lines in the NCAA. I just don't see much of an argument for a junior team competing against a relevant NCAA program.

I also believe the NCAA game much closer resembles the pro game and gets a player accustom to what he's going to see at the next level.

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08-11-2011, 08:35 AM
  #58
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Sorry, CDN fan here live in St John watched the Sea Dogs on a regular basis also watched roughly 25 games of Hockey East each year for the past 6 years as part of my hockey portfolio, there is no comparsison between NCAA and Major junior, simply NCAA is better and should be, age of athletes much different....Cdn colleges in the East, UNB, ST Fx, Acadia etc play NCAA schools like BU, BC, Northeastern, Maine can play the US colleges and compete but to suggest Major Teams is not accurate. In the same breathe nor can USHL teams compete against NCAA teams or CDN college.
Having said that in some cases depending on the individual player MJR junior is a better route than college hockey, as because the rigours of the MJR season really mirrors that of pro hockey 70 games, back to backs, bus rides etc.....not for ALL but for some it is a better option( I personally think Coyle would benefit from Mjr junior). You really have to look at the indidvidual athlete and determine what their opportunities for growth as a player are.
Huberdeau, Phillips, Galiev, Beaulieau, Jurco would all be top 6 guys or in Beaulieaus case top 4 defence, some others could make a NCAA team but by in large not many.
Proud CDN here but it is what it is !

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08-11-2011, 09:01 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrosseguy View Post
Sorry, CDN fan here live in St John watched the Sea Dogs on a regular basis also watched roughly 25 games of Hockey East each year for the past 6 years as part of my hockey portfolio, there is no comparsison between NCAA and Major junior, simply NCAA is better and should be, age of athletes much different....Cdn colleges in the East, UNB, ST Fx, Acadia etc play NCAA schools like BU, BC, Northeastern, Maine can play the US colleges and compete but to suggest Major Teams is not accurate. In the same breathe nor can USHL teams compete against NCAA teams or CDN college.
Having said that in some cases depending on the individual player MJR junior is a better route than college hockey, as because the rigours of the MJR season really mirrors that of pro hockey 70 games, back to backs, bus rides etc.....not for ALL but for some it is a better option( I personally think Coyle would benefit from Mjr junior). You really have to look at the indidvidual athlete and determine what their opportunities for growth as a player are.
Huberdeau, Phillips, Galiev, Beaulieau, Jurco would all be top 6 guys or in Beaulieaus case top 4 defence, some others could make a NCAA team but by in large not many.
Proud CDN here but it is what it is !
Finally some good insight Thanks for giving MTL some perspective.

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08-11-2011, 11:24 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrosseguy View Post
Sorry, CDN fan here live in St John watched the Sea Dogs on a regular basis also watched roughly 25 games of Hockey East each year for the past 6 years as part of my hockey portfolio, there is no comparsison between NCAA and Major junior, simply NCAA is better and should be, age of athletes much different....Cdn colleges in the East, UNB, ST Fx, Acadia etc play NCAA schools like BU, BC, Northeastern, Maine can play the US colleges and compete but to suggest Major Teams is not accurate. In the same breathe nor can USHL teams compete against NCAA teams or CDN college.
Having said that in some cases depending on the individual player MJR junior is a better route than college hockey, as because the rigours of the MJR season really mirrors that of pro hockey 70 games, back to backs, bus rides etc.....not for ALL but for some it is a better option( I personally think Coyle would benefit from Mjr junior). You really have to look at the indidvidual athlete and determine what their opportunities for growth as a player are.
Huberdeau, Phillips, Galiev, Beaulieau, Jurco would all be top 6 guys or in Beaulieaus case top 4 defence, some others could make a NCAA team but by in large not many.
Proud CDN here but it is what it is !
Very well said. The age difference makes the NCAA a superior league to the CHL. There is arguably more "talent" in the CHL, but it has not matured like the many 21+ year olds in college hockey that would be ineligible for the CHL.

You could even look at the Canadian colleges, where some long-time CHLers can't crack those teams after they graduate from the CHL(as CHLers are ineligible for the NCAA). And good players, their stats don't increase. Brock Nixon is a good example of that. 150 points in 136 games his last 2 years in the WHL, 67 points in 84 games the last 3 years in college.

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08-11-2011, 12:27 PM
  #61
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For me, it is primarily a speed differential in the game play.

NHL = 100%
AHL = 80 to 85%
CHL = 75%
NCAA = 70%

That is not taking into account the maturity, the hockey IQ or the level of physicality of the various leagues. It's merely one person's view after watching a sub-set of games from each league with the primary source of data being each league's championship tournaments.

I've always found the CHL to be... choppy in comparison to the NCAA. Meaning, it looks more like kids on the ice than adults looking like they are playing an NHL style game at slower speeds.

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08-11-2011, 02:39 PM
  #62
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Let's not forget Latendresse. He's festively plump!
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Aha. Fixed.
Aha...fixed.

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08-11-2011, 03:30 PM
  #63
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Aha...fixed.
Well played.

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08-11-2011, 08:58 PM
  #64
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To get back on topic, I was a fan of the trade when it was announced and I'm even more excited now the more I read about Coyle. I think he's going to be a fixture in our Top 6 in the near future (2-3 years), but it's nice to have the Wild become focused on our prospects and developing them.

Like Fletcher said, the time frame does have to be stretched back. He deserves to see how his draft picks pan out before decisions can be made about his tenure. I think there was much pressure to make the playoffs which lead to hasty decisions. I like the fact that he cut his losses and moved on with a player like Barker. It was a horrible trade as we all know, but I'm happy he jumped at the chance to move players like he has this summer. It shows me he's willing to do what he needs to do to make the team better. I think Coyle could make the team out of camp next year. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing him play a year or two in the AHL though. I'm just excited to see what our prospects are able to do this year.

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08-11-2011, 11:02 PM
  #65
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Sharks fan (you guys probably get a lot of us ) here to say that you'll love Coyle. We liked to think of him as a better skating hybrid of Pavelski and Clowe.

You're in for a treat at the WJC. I also watch several HE games and Coyle looks like a man among boys there (size and skill).

Hope he reaches his potential, he never play with the Sharks, but I feel a weird connection to him, just another reason to root for you guys.

Peace. Destroy Vancouver!

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08-12-2011, 08:49 AM
  #66
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I wonder if (and hope) a friendly rivalry is developing between Zucker and Coyle. They're the same age, doing the same things (college hockey and WJC), working towards spots on the same teams. I remember people speculating that Coyle would be captain for the WJC, but now there's talk about it being Zucker. Both of them won rookie of the year in their respective conference. Sounds like a great recipe for a friendly rivalry.

I hope this is the case as it'll give both of them that little extra incentive to work hard and pound it out.

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08-12-2011, 11:37 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squidz View Post
You know that 05-06 Fighting Sioux team Victorious Secret mentioned? They finished third in the WCHA. Their WCHA record was 13-10-5, even though they had 5 first rounders. If a team with Toews, Zajac, and Oshie wasn't even able to maintain a winning record in the WCHA, you might want to revise your claim that having 5 first rounders means the Sea Dogs have "more depth."
So which is it? 13-10-5 is a winning record. Don't forget that team also ended up in the frozen 4. Of course, they had an easy 2nd round matchup against Holy Cross.

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08-12-2011, 11:43 AM
  #68
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Of course, they had an easy 2nd round matchup against Holy Cross.
*snicker snicker

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08-12-2011, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Timothy Freitag View Post
So which is it? 13-10-5 is a winning record. Don't forget that team also ended up in the frozen 4. Of course, they had an easy 2nd round matchup against Holy Cross.
While in the NCAA the 5 is ties, and not overtime losses, the fact is they won 13 out of 28 games. That is to say, 54% of the time, they did not win the game. They did earn 31 out of a possible 56 points, but if a team finishes 4-1-23 do you call that a winning record?

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08-12-2011, 11:52 AM
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While in the NCAA the 5 is ties, and not overtime losses, the fact is they won 13 out of 28 games. That is to say, 54% of the time, they did not win the game. They did earn 31 out of a possible 56 points, but if a team finishes 4-1-23 do you call that a winning record?
Understood.

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08-12-2011, 12:07 PM
  #71
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No it's a ****ing maturity issue. If teams led by 18 and 19 year-old first round picks were always the best college teams then the Gophers would have 9 NCAA titles this decade instead of 2.

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08-13-2011, 07:31 AM
  #72
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The CHL produces more NHLers.
The CHL has more talented players as shown by the above statment.
The talemt itself is spread out. Over three leagues and severla teams.

NoDak, WI, MN, DU all play each other. MN and WI non conference has MI on it every year. There is at least some match up with BU, BC etc... in there. The WCHA is jam packed.

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08-13-2011, 01:42 PM
  #73
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The CHL produces more NHLers.
The CHL has more talented players as shown by the above statment.
The talemt itself is spread out. Over three leagues and severla teams.

NoDak, WI, MN, DU all play each other. MN and WI non conference has MI on it every year. There is at least some match up with BU, BC etc... in there. The WCHA is jam packed.
Someone needs to read This.

And if the talent is spread out, wouldn't it be pretty pathetic if its only over several teams?

I also don't understand the point of saying the teams all player each other. Don't they do that in Canada, too?

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08-13-2011, 02:57 PM
  #74
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Hey bros, why are we fighting here?

Coyle's going to be awesome for the Wild, and he's coming from the NCAA. Zucker's going to do the same thing, hopefully.

Phillips is hopefully going to be awesome for the Wild, and he's coming from juniors.

Bouchard came from juniors, and he's awesome for the Wild. Schultz played juniors and is awesome for the Wild. Lundin's coming from the NCAA and is hopefully going to be good for the Wild.

Different players go different routes, some excel in some places and some fail in others and should have gone a different direction with their development. It happens.

I don't see why people are arguing, damn. It seems that most Canadians are going to say Juniors is better for development, while most Americans are going to say the same for the NCAA. You're not going to change someone else's opinion unless you are some masterful debater of some sort, so just stop. It's annoying and it's derailed this thread talking about one of the best prospects the Wild has. Let's just talk about the Wild's future, not about some petty stuff that has no place in this thread.

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08-13-2011, 03:04 PM
  #75
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Hey bros, why are we fighting here?

Coyle's going to be awesome for the Wild, and he's coming from the NCAA. Zucker's going to do the same thing, hopefully.

Phillips is hopefully going to be awesome for the Wild, and he's coming from juniors.

Bouchard came from juniors, and he's awesome for the Wild. Schultz played juniors and is awesome for the Wild. Lundin's coming from the NCAA and is hopefully going to be good for the Wild.

Different players go different routes, some excel in some places and some fail in others and should have gone a different direction with their development. It happens.

I don't see why people are arguing, damn. It seems that most Canadians are going to say Juniors is better for development, while most Americans are going to say the same for the NCAA. You're not going to change someone else's opinion unless you are some masterful debater of some sort, so just stop. It's annoying and it's derailed this thread talking about one of the best prospects the Wild has. Let's just talk about the Wild's future, not about some petty stuff that has no place in this thread.
Haha.

Coyle is awesome!!!

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