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Old
08-14-2011, 11:54 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by surf View Post
Talk to Espo in the Hall about his garbage goals..God forbid Lucic doesn't score pretty video goals you all want and crave..

Overrated goon?? Really? Quit while your even.
Well I'm in the Cally camp myself, but to be completely honest here, Cally's goals aren't exactly Mozart either.

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08-14-2011, 11:56 PM
  #52
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Yes, he is. Callahan probably would've eclipsed Lucic's numbers last season if he played the 19 games Lucic had on him. Callahan is the much more complete player.
Complete player doesn't always mean better player. Lucic plays almost 4 minutes less of ice time than Callahan does per game and he has a higher P/60 mins indicates Lucic is better offensively.

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08-15-2011, 12:03 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Being bigger definitely does give him an edge. He can pretty much use his size to muscle players off pucks and work behind the net.
Callahan is just as good as a 'below the goal-line' player as Lucic. He's a more efficient forechecker because he's a much better skater, and a much smarter player than Lucic. He can read plays like not many other 2nd line forwards can, Lucic not being one of them.

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He scored 2 goals in game 7 vs. Philadelphia last year and scored the tying goal vs. Carolina in the previous year's game 7.
And they lost both of those games.

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Wow this post is just wrong. Milan Lucic, they player who scored more points than Callahan last year and has a higher career PPG isn't in the same caliber as Ryan Callahan?
Nope.

Callahan had 48 points in 60 games.

Lucic had 62 in 82.

Yeah, I know that we're just dealing with pace here, but when Callahan played, his statistics were essentially even with Lucic's. Also, points aren't everything.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Lucic has better P/60 mins
I don't see the significance in this when they had a relatively even PPG.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
+ has a better GA/60 mins than Callahan.
That doesn't really symbolize anything, either. It just shows that Lucic was on a better defensive team.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Lucic is being underrated defensively, he's not as good as Callahan but it's not like he's a liability.
Callahan is one of the best defensive forwards in the league.

They don't even compare in that facet. Lucic gets 0 pking time because he's a horrendous skater that cannot keep up in the defensive zone.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Lucic creates more offense, scores more goals in less playing time.
Lucic creates offense with his size and strength down low, but aside from that, he is not as smart as Callahan, and that goes a long way in making a player more effective.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Lucic is dominat on the cycle game, an ideal winger for Brad Richards and was one of the main reasons the Krejci line had a lot of success.
Is Callahan not an above-average board player?

Also, I would say that Krejci's play benefited Lucic more sore than Lucic benefited Krejci. Not vice-versa

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Goals are goals. Lucic was on the ice to seal game winners at the end of close games. As was Dubinsky with the Rangers, no need to discredit a player for it.
I am going to discredit players for it, because an empty net goal is essentially the definition of stat padding. It shows that Lucic's goal scoring prowess is significantly overstated. I say the same thing for Dubinsky, really.

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08-15-2011, 12:19 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
Callahan is just as good as a 'below the goal-line' player as Lucic. He's a more efficient forechecker because he's a much better skater, and a much smarter player than Lucic. He can read plays like not many other 2nd line forwards can, Lucic not being one of them.
Yeah but he has SIZE. He doesn't need to be as fast since he can muscle guys off pucks. The past two Hart Trophy winners aren't elite skaters either. There is also nothing to indicate Callahan is a smarter player than Lucic. Lucic can also read plays, can't move him from the front of the net and generally you need to be a smart player to work the cycle game. Callahan is a 2nd liner and will be a 2nd liner. Lucic is a 1st liner on a cup winning team with room to grow and he hasn't hit his prime years.



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And they lost both of those games.
So? He shows up for every big game. Does it matter if the TEAM lost both games? Lucic shows up, even if he's not scoring. Lucic is a game breaker, Callahan isn't.



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Nope.

Callahan had 48 points in 60 games.

Lucic had 62 in 82.
Higher P/60 mins and played 4 less MPG than Callahan. I rest my case.

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Yeah, I know that we're just dealing with pace here, but when Callahan played, his statistics were essentially even with Lucic's. Also, points aren't everything.
I'll take the real thing over something that hypothetically would of happened.

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I don't see the significance in this when they had a relatively even PPG.
Callahan had a 2.04 P/60 mins, Lucic, 2.64 P/60 mins. I'd say that is a pretty big gap between the two.

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That doesn't really symbolize anything, either. It just shows that Lucic was on a better defensive team.
It proves Lucic isn't a defensive liability since he is good defensively.

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They don't even compare in that facet. Lucic gets 0 pking time because he's a horrendous skater that cannot keep up in the defensive zone.
Not playing on the PK doesn't mean the player is putrid defensively. Bruins had better PKers in Paille, Campbell, Kelly, Marchand, etc. No need to waste minutes on a player when there are better players suited for that role.


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Lucic creates offense with his size and strength down low, but aside from that, he is not as smart as Callahan, and that goes a long way in making a player more effective.
Again there is nothing to prove that Callahan is 'more smart'. Hockey fans assume powerforwards are dumb hockey players, similar to how people assume PMD are useless in the playoffs. Both are wrong.

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Is Callahan not an above-average board player?
Not as good as Lucic

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Also, I would say that Krejci's play benefited Lucic more sore than Lucic benefited Krejci. Not vice-versa
Maybe. But they both definitely help each other, hence they both had the same amount of points.

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I am going to discredit players for it, because an empty net goal is essentially the definition of stat padding. It shows that Lucic's goal scoring prowess is significantly overstated. I say the same thing for Dubinsky, really.
It's stat padding if you pull your goalie when your team is down by more than 3 goals late in the third, this is what Tampa did with Stamkos so he could secure the Richard trophy. You can't fault a player for scoring an empty net goal when the opposing team decided to pull their goalie.

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08-15-2011, 02:48 AM
  #55
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This deal makes zero sense for either team. As for the Callahan vs. Lucic debate: they're both better than each other at different facets of the game.

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08-15-2011, 06:00 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Complete player doesn't always mean better player. Lucic plays almost 4 minutes less of ice time than Callahan does per game and he has a higher P/60 mins indicates Lucic is better offensively.
He has also played on much better teams than Callahan has

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08-15-2011, 06:32 AM
  #57
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David Krejci is the rising star on Boston. Without him there's no way Lucic scores 30.

In the playoffs Krejci scored 12 goals and 23 points. Lucic 5 goals and 12 points. Both played in 25 games.

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08-15-2011, 07:43 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by ohbaby View Post
David Krejci is the rising star on Boston. Without him there's no way Lucic scores 30.

In the playoffs Krejci scored 12 goals and 23 points. Lucic 5 goals and 12 points. Both played in 25 games.
I told myself I'd post on hfboards less, but...

Yeah this, though he's been around long enough putting up good points to think that he's not quite "rising" at this point.

Lucic is a good player who makes great contributions to his team. That said, I don't see him as an essential piece that a team MUST have to be competitive. I wouldn't give up a ransom to get him (and Boston has no reason to give him up right now either).

Basically, there's no "need" for Lucic. He would be nice to have of course, but he's not a make it or break it player for a team like the Rangers either.

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08-15-2011, 08:03 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
I told myself I'd post on hfboards less, but...

Yeah this, though he's been around long enough putting up good points to think that he's not quite "rising" at this point.

Lucic is a good player who makes great contributions to his team. That said, I don't see him as an essential piece that a team MUST have to be competitive. I wouldn't give up a ransom to get him (and Boston has no reason to give him up right now either).

Basically, there's no "need" for Lucic. He would be nice to have of course, but he's not a make it or break it player for a team like the Rangers either.
Even though Krejci has been putting up good numbers in his 4 years in the NHL, he has only begun to rise in stature. If you watched Bostons playoff run, he did not get much of the credit for their success. You heard a lot more of Bergeron, Marchand and Lucic than him.

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08-15-2011, 08:06 AM
  #60
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I don't think this deal is as far off as what some people ar emaking it sound.

Just to touch on one point. If Lucic had a great year with Krejci...How good would he have been with Richards and Gaborik? How much room would Richards and Gaborik have with Lucic playing the wall? Or how about Stepan down the road playing with Lucic?

It's an interesting proposal. I think Staal is the better player and carries more worth at this time. But this one truly isn't as lopsides as people are making it out to be.

Factor one more thing here.

Rangers are deep at defense
Rangers are relatively light on the Left Wall

Wonder is Boston has any interest in Kreider?

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08-15-2011, 08:24 AM
  #61
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I would take Lucic on my team any day of the week but I can't give up Staal for him.

I would do Kreider +, what that plus is, not sure.

Lucic would be the perfect player to place on a line with Gabby & Richards.

He would create space, offer protection and knock in 25-35 goals a year....makes way too much sense...however, I think there is zero chance that the Bruins trade him.

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08-15-2011, 08:56 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by ohbaby View Post
Even though Krejci has been putting up good numbers in his 4 years in the NHL, he has only begun to rise in stature. If you watched Bostons playoff run, he did not get much of the credit for their success. You heard a lot more of Bergeron, Marchand and Lucic than him.
That's true. Krejci was a monster in the playoffs. Whenever they needed a big goal, he seemed to come through.

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08-15-2011, 08:58 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
I don't think this deal is as far off as what some people ar emaking it sound.

Just to touch on one point. If Lucic had a great year with Krejci...How good would he have been with Richards and Gaborik? How much room would Richards and Gaborik have with Lucic playing the wall? Or how about Stepan down the road playing with Lucic?

It's an interesting proposal. I think Staal is the better player and carries more worth at this time. But this one truly isn't as lopsides as people are making it out to be.

Factor one more thing here.

Rangers are deep at defense
Rangers are relatively light on the Left Wall

Wonder is Boston has any interest in Kreider?
The Rangers losing Staal just about cripples our defense as is - he is the lynch pin
Boston takes this deal running, pairs staal with Chara, puts seguin in lucic's spot and runs away laughing.

It's INCREDIBLY lopsided.

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08-15-2011, 09:07 AM
  #64
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Yeah, I wouldnt do Staal, but I would do any of:

Girardi
Sauer
McDonagh

+

Any prospect not named McIlrath, Kreider, Thomas or Miller.

Girardi + Lindberg?

Girardi + Kundratek + pick?

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08-15-2011, 09:36 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Complete player doesn't always mean better player. Lucic plays almost 4 minutes less of ice time than Callahan does per game and he has a higher P/60 mins indicates Lucic is better offensively.
Callahan kills penalties and Lucic doesn't, they're close enough in even strength ice time I'm sure as well as powerplay time for the time per game to be irrelevant.

I agree that complete player doesn't always mean better, but when you're looking at two players that put up very similar production I would argue that the guy that can provide your team with pretty much anything you could ask for is the better player.

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08-15-2011, 09:58 AM
  #66
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Bingo...Big picture people..Lucic with Gabby and Richards would be insane....Im telling you 300 goals over the next 10 for Milan..Adding snarl,jam and space..Gabby would sleep well at night.As for ugly garbage goals? I didn't realize they meant less than pretty goals..I freaking love Marc Staal but we are deep in young D..This trade isn't far as some are claiming..




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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
I don't think this deal is as far off as what some people ar emaking it sound.

Just to touch on one point. If Lucic had a great year with Krejci...How good would he have been with Richards and Gaborik? How much room would Richards and Gaborik have with Lucic playing the wall? Or how about Stepan down the road playing with Lucic?

It's an interesting proposal. I think Staal is the better player and carries more worth at this time. But this one truly isn't as lopsides as people are making it out to be.

Factor one more thing here.

Rangers are deep at defense
Rangers are relatively light on the Left Wall

Wonder is Boston has any interest in Kreider?

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08-15-2011, 10:32 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by surf View Post
Bingo...Big picture people..Lucic with Gabby and Richards would be insane....Im telling you 300 goals over the next 10 for Milan..Adding snarl,jam and space..Gabby would sleep well at night.As for ugly garbage goals? I didn't realize they meant less than pretty goals..I freaking love Marc Staal but we are deep in young D..This trade isn't far as some are claiming..
If Milan Lucic scores 300 goals over the next 10 seasons, Ill give you whatevers in my bank account in 2021. The guy is one of the more overrated players in the league.

Marc Staal, however, is one of the more underrated players in the league - even by his own fanbase, apparently. You casually drop the line "we are deep in young D" like that means anything in the NHL; translation: We have some promising prospects. So, you're prepared to jettison the lynchpin of this defense, one of the best defensive defensemen in the league, because of this? Thats suicide. This defense crumbles without Marc Staal playing 25+ minutes a night.

Besides, I dont think Lucic/Richards/Gaborik is any more "insane" than Dubinsky/Richards/Gaborik.

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08-15-2011, 10:34 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by surf View Post
Bingo...Big picture people..Lucic with Gabby and Richards would be insane....Im telling you 300 goals over the next 10 for Milan..Adding snarl,jam and space..Gabby would sleep well at night.As for ugly garbage goals? I didn't realize they meant less than pretty goals..I freaking love Marc Staal but we are deep in young D..This trade isn't far as some are claiming..
We are deep in d prospects. Say that again. PROSPECTS. no dman curretly playing on the team or in the system will be Marc staal. And they certainly won't be at staals level in the time frame that we need them to be, which is right now. A move like Lucic for Staal is taking a half step forward and three giant steps back.

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08-15-2011, 11:05 AM
  #69
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I love Lucic but trading Staal or Girardi for him is a bone-headed move.

I get that we need size and skill up front, but moving Staal or Girardi for Lucic fills a hole, but creates another one at the same time.

Boston won't move their top goal scorer either. They just won the Stanley Cup and removing a major piece from their roster makes little sense. That would be like the Rangers winning the cup, then trading Callahan.

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08-15-2011, 11:28 AM
  #70
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If were including Staal, you might as well change the title of the thread to "The need for Ryan"

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08-15-2011, 11:32 AM
  #71
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If we're going to give up Staal and maybe a pick for a winger it would have to be for someone much, much better than Lucic. People are arguing about whether or not he's better than Callahan or Dubi and both sides are making legitimate points. That says to me that he's not much better than they are if he is better at all. This team doesn't need another winger that plays a Callahan and Dubi level game - they have those guys and they are both able to play a great second second line game and a passable first line game when its asked of them. This team needs a guy like Bobby Ryan or someone of that caliber if they want to seriously add a wing. They need someone who you can't debate as being worse than Dubi and Callahan. Those guys are great players and are two of my favorite Rangers but we have the Dubi, Callahan, Lucic type of guys already - add a game changer or let it play out I say.

EDIT: Just saw the post above me - good timing my friend.

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08-15-2011, 11:37 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
If we're going to give up Staal and maybe a pick for a winger it would have to be for someone much, much better than Lucic. People are arguing about whether or not he's better than Callahan or Dubi and both sides are making legitimate points. That says to me that he's not much better than they are if he is better at all. This team doesn't need another winger that plays a Callahan and Dubi level game - they have those guys and they are both able to play a great second second line game and a passable first line game when its asked of them. This team needs a guy like Bobby Ryan or someone of that caliber if they want to seriously add a wing. They need someone who you can't debate as being worse than Dubi and Callahan. Those guys are great players and are two of my favorite Rangers but we have the Dubi, Callahan, Lucic type of guys already - add a game changer or let it play out I say.

EDIT: Just saw the post above me - good timing my friend.
haha. Ryan is an ultimate beast

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08-15-2011, 11:37 AM
  #73
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On no planet is Lucic a better or more valuable player than Callahan. Other than size and possibly durability, Lucic has nothing over Callahan. Callahan is among the league's best at virtually everything sans offensive skill and size. Lucic is among the league's best at nothing other than size. Lucic is a bigger, stronger, worse version of Callahan.

Callahan is the better defensive player. Callahan is also a significantly smarter player (if you argue this, you simply don't understand on what grounds a player's intelligence is measured on the ice). He's much better in terms of positioning, stickwork, decision making away from the puck. Better skater. The things that Lucic should dominate over Callahan in because of his physical advantage, you can't even really say that he does, because Callahan is, pound-for-pound, one of the tougher players in the league. He withstands tons of punishment against much bigger players and yet continues to be an excellent force along the boards and in the corners. He's a better passer, a better playmaker. Lucic is strong, and as such, probably has the more dangerous shot.

Lucic, of course, also played with David Krejci. Not an elite center or playmaker, but a legitimate one. A little bit of an upgrade over the caliber of linemates that Callahan played with, no? Lucic also doesn't have to kill penalties, so he's fresher and more focused on scoring while taking much less wear and tear. His team is also much better and deeper, and is the best defensive team in the league, thus allowing a second liner such as himself to remain effective even in an elevated role. Trying to make an argument that Lucic, as opposed to Callahan, is a first liner, is completely ridiculous.

Lucic is a very good player. A nice luxury to have on any team. He's not worth Marc Staal, nor is he as good as Ryan Callahan.

Someone in the thread said something along the lines of (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Lucic is an impact player, Callahan isn't." That's one of the stupidest things I've read this month. It completely ignores the entire logic of what being an impact player in this sport means. Because Callahan is better, and in many cases, much better, than Lucic in so many different aspects of the game, that would make him the bigger impact player. Callahan impacts the game every time he steps onto the ice, because he can impact the game in so many different ways. He can impact the game in far more important ways than a big hit from Lucic. Also, Lucic is much easier for an opposing team to marginalize than Callahan. Defensively, he's less of a factor than Callahan is, and on offense, as long as you apply sufficient pressure to him, he will have to get rid of the puck, and become a far less effective presence. Callahan is more effective without the puck than he is with it, because of well he reads plays and thinks the game.

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08-15-2011, 11:58 AM
  #74
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i would love lucic but this trade doesnt make sense. if we are giving staal its an overpayment (by a lot), and we are crushing the d. not worth lucic. if we were ever to trade staal it better be in some sort of deal to land a true star, not a nice player like lucic.

and at worst callahan is as good as lucic.

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08-15-2011, 12:10 PM
  #75
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I love how prospects who have yet to play a game in the NHL are suddenly making our #1, allstar dman expendable. It was laughable enough when the proposals were for Girardi.

But hey, as long as we have the toughest team on the block, who cares about defense, right?

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