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Old
08-15-2011, 12:13 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
I love how prospects who have yet to play a game in the NHL are suddenly making our #1, allstar dman expendable. It was laughable enough when the proposals were for Girardi.

But hey, as long as we have the toughest team on the block, who cares about defense, right?
Amen.

Part 2 of this trade proposal, which wasnt mentioned, is then trading Gaborik for Carkner.

All set.

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08-15-2011, 12:36 PM
  #77
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let me start a thread called The need for Ovechkin...

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08-15-2011, 12:44 PM
  #78
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let me start a thread called The need for Ovechkin...
That, at least, would make some sense.

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08-15-2011, 02:53 PM
  #79
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I do..Boston laughs at your face with that offer..They have no reason to trade him so you have to overpay..I see Lucic as scoring 30 for the next 10 years and being a top LHW..I would love him in blue.
Lucic is good but Staal is better period.

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08-15-2011, 02:55 PM
  #80
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Lucic is overrated around the league, and Staal is underrated. That alone makes this a bad idea for a deal. Beyond that, color me unimpressed with Lucic in general. Good player, yeah, but he isn't my favorite Bruins forward, by a long shot.

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08-15-2011, 04:25 PM
  #81
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Let's not forget that Staal was chosen to be in the all-star game pretty much on defense alone. That tells you something about his defense and how valuable he is to this team on that end. To me finding a guy who can give you 25-30 goals is easier than finding a guy who can shut down #1's. Hell we already have Kreider and Thomas who will be very good options at wing in the future, but where's the next Staal? I don't see one.

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08-15-2011, 08:10 PM
  #82
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While we're at it, someone 'splain how "the more complete" player isn't necessarily the better player.

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08-16-2011, 10:39 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Trading Girardi for Lucic would be a real dumb deal on our end.

The problem is you have an inflated opinion of Lucic. He won't average close to 30 goals the next 10 years, and he's not a top line winger.
No it wouldn't given we are thin and need improvement at LW and are deep at D.
Staal, however, is entirely another story.
Marc S. is not the most all around elite blueliner, but he is the best shut down D there is.

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08-16-2011, 10:47 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I would take Lucic on my team any day of the week but I can't give up Staal for him.

I would do Kreider +, what that plus is, not sure.

Lucic would be the perfect player to place on a line with Gabby & Richards.

He would create space, offer protection and knock in 25-35 goals a year....makes way too much sense...however, I think there is zero chance that the Bruins trade him.
Lucic, as long as he beats out the competition, fine ... but not at cost of Staal. Or Kreider, who is already getting kudos for his exceptional skating.

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08-16-2011, 10:48 AM
  #85
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No it wouldn't given we are thin and need improvement at LW and are deep at D.
The Rangers are deep in proven top-4 defenseman?

Until Erixon shows he's a legitimate NHL caliber defenseman, Girardi isn't expendable.

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08-16-2011, 10:57 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Someone in the thread said something along the lines of (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Lucic is an impact player, Callahan isn't." That's one of the stupidest things I've read this month. It completely ignores the entire logic of what being an impact player in this sport means. Because Callahan is better, and in many cases, much better, than Lucic in so many different aspects of the game, that would make him the bigger impact player. Callahan impacts the game every time he steps onto the ice, because he can impact the game in so many different ways. He can impact the game in far more important ways than a big hit from Lucic. Also, Lucic is much easier for an opposing team to marginalize than Callahan. Defensively, he's less of a factor than Callahan is, and on offense, as long as you apply sufficient pressure to him, he will have to get rid of the puck, and become a far less effective presence. Callahan is more effective without the puck than he is with it, because of well he reads plays and thinks the game.
It's funny because I'm pretty sure what they meant was that Lucic seems to come up big when the time calls for it...completely ignoring some of the amazing things Callahan did when the Rangers had their back against the wall this past season.

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08-16-2011, 12:13 PM
  #87
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He has also played on much better teams than Callahan has
Yup. He was a 1st liner on an elite team, Callahan is a 2nd liner on a team that has struggled making the playoffs recently.

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08-16-2011, 12:15 PM
  #88
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David Krejci is the rising star on Boston. Without him there's no way Lucic scores 30.

In the playoffs Krejci scored 12 goals and 23 points. Lucic 5 goals and 12 points. Both played in 25 games.
They both scored the same amount of regular season points. Lucic was playing with a broken foot the entire playoff run, I agree Krejci is better but not the only reason Lucic broke out. It's similar how many thought Correy Perry would've been useless without Getzlaf teeing him up passes.

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08-16-2011, 12:18 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
Callahan kills penalties and Lucic doesn't, they're close enough in even strength ice time I'm sure as well as powerplay time for the time per game to be irrelevant.

I agree that complete player doesn't always mean better, but when you're looking at two players that put up very similar production I would argue that the guy that can provide your team with pretty much anything you could ask for is the better player.
I don't think this is the case with Lucic however. He is good defensively and better offensively, I'll take him since he generates more offense and adds size to the forward corps.

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08-16-2011, 12:21 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
On no planet is Lucic a better or more valuable player than Callahan. Other than size and possibly durability, Lucic has nothing over Callahan. Callahan is among the league's best at virtually everything sans offensive skill and size. Lucic is among the league's best at nothing other than size. Lucic is a bigger, stronger, worse version of Callahan.

Callahan is the better defensive player. Callahan is also a significantly smarter player (if you argue this, you simply don't understand on what grounds a player's intelligence is measured on the ice). He's much better in terms of positioning, stickwork, decision making away from the puck. Better skater. The things that Lucic should dominate over Callahan in because of his physical advantage, you can't even really say that he does, because Callahan is, pound-for-pound, one of the tougher players in the league. He withstands tons of punishment against much bigger players and yet continues to be an excellent force along the boards and in the corners. He's a better passer, a better playmaker. Lucic is strong, and as such, probably has the more dangerous shot.

Lucic, of course, also played with David Krejci. Not an elite center or playmaker, but a legitimate one. A little bit of an upgrade over the caliber of linemates that Callahan played with, no? Lucic also doesn't have to kill penalties, so he's fresher and more focused on scoring while taking much less wear and tear. His team is also much better and deeper, and is the best defensive team in the league, thus allowing a second liner such as himself to remain effective even in an elevated role. Trying to make an argument that Lucic, as opposed to Callahan, is a first liner, is completely ridiculous.

Lucic is a very good player. A nice luxury to have on any team. He's not worth Marc Staal, nor is he as good as Ryan Callahan.

Someone in the thread said something along the lines of (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Lucic is an impact player, Callahan isn't." That's one of the stupidest things I've read this month. It completely ignores the entire logic of what being an impact player in this sport means. Because Callahan is better, and in many cases, much better, than Lucic in so many different aspects of the game, that would make him the bigger impact player. Callahan impacts the game every time he steps onto the ice, because he can impact the game in so many different ways. He can impact the game in far more important ways than a big hit from Lucic. Also, Lucic is much easier for an opposing team to marginalize than Callahan. Defensively, he's less of a factor than Callahan is, and on offense, as long as you apply sufficient pressure to him, he will have to get rid of the puck, and become a far less effective presence. Callahan is more effective without the puck than he is with it, because of well he reads plays and thinks the game.
Well there is nothing to prove Callahan is much better than Lucic or much smarter. Make a poll on the main boards, I bet many would rather take Lucic. I think the opinions reek of bias similar to how one poster said Dubinsky's value is that of Taylor Hall....

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08-16-2011, 12:50 PM
  #91
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Lucic scored almost half of his career goals and just about 1/3 of his career assists in a single season, which was last season.

Also I wasn't aware that Lucic single-handedly won Boston their Cup this last year and that makes him one of the best players in the league automatically.

I'm more than content sticking with our home-growns and let them have theirs. If this trade magically went through, everyone would probably just be upset that we traded away our home-grown #1D for something from BOSTON (yuck).

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08-16-2011, 01:11 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Well there is nothing to prove Callahan is much better than Lucic or much smarter. Make a poll on the main boards, I bet many would rather take Lucic. I think the opinions reek of bias similar to how one poster said Dubinsky's value is that of Taylor Hall....
Nothing to prove? The evidence is all there, and it is rather overwhelming. When one player consistently proves to be better positioned, a better passer, a stronger decision maker, and more able and reliant on his stick in defensive situations, that makes him a smarter player. These things are not really an opinion. Either you watch the games or you don't, or you just don't know the difference. When one player is among the top penalty killing forwards in the league, and another (with virtually equal offensive responsibilities to the first player on his respective club) doesn't kill penalties at all, that alone should give you some insight into how that player's coach (a defense-first coach, mind you) feels about the player's value overall. The smartest, best all-around forwards in the league, in almost every case, are used in all situations and tend to be among the best defensive forwards in the league. Ryan Callahan received 15 Selke Trophy votes last season. Milan Lucic received 1.

Lucic is, more or less, a one dimensional player. Again, a good player that I'd like on my team. But Callahan does it all, and most of those things, he does better than Lucic.

BTW, Callahan is a 2nd line RW on a team where the first line RW is Marian Gaborik. Milan Lucic is the first line LW on a team where the other LWs are Shawn Thornton, a rookie Brad Marchand, and Daniel Paille. That team was also missing it's top forward in general, Savard, for the entire season. And Callahan, as a the "second liner," was the best skater on his team last season (again). Lucic wasn't even the best player on his line.

The Bruins are an "elite" team because of Tim Thomas and Zdeno Chara and stifling team defense, not because of their mediocre forward talent that, almost as lowly as the Rangers in terms of high-end skill, allows a guy like Lucic to get first line icetime. And, of course, because Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin were injured, because otherwise, the Bruins probably don't even get to the SC Finals last season.


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08-16-2011, 01:27 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Nothing to prove? The evidence is all there, and it is rather overwhelming. When one player consistently proves to be better positioned, a better passer, a stronger decision maker, and more able and reliant on his stick in defensive situations, that makes him a smarter player. These things are not really an opinion. Either you watch the games or you don't, or you just don't know the difference. When one player is among the top penalty killing forwards in the league, and another (with virtually equal offensive responsibilities to the first player on his respective club) doesn't kill penalties at all, that alone should give you some insight into how that player's coach (a defense-first coach, mind you) feels about the player's value overall. The smartest, best all-around forwards in the league, in almost every case, are used in all situations and tend to be among the best defensive forwards in the league. Ryan Callahan received 15 Selke Trophy votes last season. Milan Lucic received 1.
The evidence is there that Lucic isn't a penalty killer. He's good defensively, brings more offense, scores more goals, much healthier, brings size to the lineup, is harder to knock the puck from, dominates the cycle game and can beat the crap out of other players. People are blinded by 2-way play, it seems. Callahan is not a better playmaker than Lucic, Lucic has more career assists in less games.

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Lucic is, more or less, a one dimensional player. Again, a good player that I'd like on my team. But Callahan does it all, and most of those things, he does better than Lucic.
He isn't. He was backchecking the whole playoffs and intimidated the Canucks in the SCF. Lucic is good defensively and not a liability like you make him out to be.

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BTW, Callahan is a 2nd line RW on a team where the first line RW is Marian Gaborik. Milan Lucic is the first line LW on a team where the other LWs are Shawn Thornton, a rookie Brad Marchand, and Daniel Paille. That team was also missing it's top forward in general, Savard, for the entire season. And Callahan, as a the "second liner," was the best skater on his team last season (again). Lucic wasn't even the best player on his line.
Lucic in the regular season was arguably the best player on his line since he matched up point wise with everyone on the Bruins roster. Callahan is nothing more than a 2nd line grinding forward, Lucic would be the first line LW on most teams in the league.

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08-16-2011, 02:50 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
The evidence is there that Lucic isn't a penalty killer. He's good defensively, brings more offense, scores more goals, much healthier, brings size to the lineup, is harder to knock the puck from, dominates the cycle game and can beat the crap out of other players. People are blinded by 2-way play, it seems. Callahan is not a better playmaker than Lucic, Lucic has more career assists in less games.
How can you be blinded by 2-way play, when other than sheer offensive skill and talent, 2-way play is easily the most important quality that the game's best players must have? Virtually all of the best and most valuable players in the league, except for several incredibly talented offensive anomalies like Ovechkin, are the best and most valuable because they are excellent 2-way players. Most of the best players in the sport are excellent 2-way players. Playing great hockey at both ends of the ice is what makes you one of the best, and what wins games.

As for the other "points," having more assists in less games doesn't mean that Lucic is a better playmaker or that he brings less offense. It means that Lucic has played with such linemates as Krejci, Horton, Savard, Bergeron, Recchi. The worst of those players are more or less equal to the best of the linemates that Callahan has had (Dubinsky, Anisimov, Drury, Avery Gomez), not to mention the difference in terms of PP quality of chances when you take into consideration the gap in talent between the two groups.

Healthier? Callahan has missed significant time in one of his 3 and one-half seasons as an NHL regular. Lucic has missed almost the same amount of time in his 4 seasons as an NHL regular. But Lucic doesn't kill penalties, meaning he takes much less wear and tear and exerts himself less during every game (which also means he's fresher during even strength and PP time), and he doesn't have to go down to block shoots and break his foot. Let's see how much healthier he'd be if he was one of his team's top penalty killing forwards.

Despite all of these things (more and tougher workload, significantly higher quality of linemates, size advantage), Callahan scores almost as much as Lucic does. BTW, if you want to talk about clutch play, gamebreaking ability,...Lucic had 5 multi-goal games last season. 1 against MTL, 1 against, CGY, 1 against COL, 1 against NYI, and one against FLA (if you're keeping track, that's 4 **** teams and 1 decent team). Not counting the MTL game, when he had 2 goals, 9 of his 30 goals came in the other 4 games (2 against each of CGY, COL, and NYI, and 3 against FLA). Callahan had 3 multi-goal games. 2 goals a piece against Pittsburgh and Washington, and 4 goals against the Flyers. 3 of the top teams in the conference.

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He isn't. He was backchecking the whole playoffs and intimidated the Canucks in the SCF. Lucic is good defensively and not a liability like you make him out to be.
Who said he was a liability? He's a slightly above-average defensive forward with the added bonus of being one of the bigger, stronger forwards in the league. But backchecking doesn't make him a great backchecker. He may have intimidated the Canucks, but you'll notice that in the playoffs, against the league's better teams, he was much less of a factor offensively, which drastically reduces his overall impact on the game because he isn't a great defensive forward.

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Lucic in the regular season was arguably the best player on his line since he matched up point wise with everyone on the Bruins roster. Callahan is nothing more than a 2nd line grinding forward, Lucic would be the first line LW on most teams in the league.
I watched plenty of Bruins games, and most of the time, not only was it very clear that David Krejci was by far the most important forward on the line and the team, but much of the time, Lucic was no more an offensive factor than Horton was, and often times less so.

Forget about the fact that there are more quality players playing C and RW than there are LW, meaning lesser players are more valuable playing the LW position. Calling Callahan a second line grinding forward is just sad, because it doesn't only show a lack of appreciation for Callahan, it shows a lack of appreciation for excellent hockey. If either of the two players should be noted for being a grinder, it's Lucic.

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08-16-2011, 03:16 PM
  #95
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I don't think this is the case with Lucic however. He is good defensively and better offensively, I'll take him since he generates more offense and adds size to the forward corps.
I whole heartedly disagree. Callahan was scoring at a ridiculous pace this season when he finally got healthy and before taking that Chara shot. He was damn near a point a game for a good long stretch there. Who knows what kind of numbers he would have put up if he played all season? I saw a much better offensive player in Callahan last year than I had in the past - I don't know if anybody else agrees but he looked much more dangerous on a more consistent basis. Defensively, Callahan is a much better player than Lucic. Lucic is good from what I've watched of him, which is admittedly not a ton, but Callahan is better than good, he is a truly great defensive player. He plays the PK very well, as demonstrated by him playing on PK for team USA, and he is that defensively aware all the time. Lucic isn't bad but he isn't the same defensive player as Callahan is and thats a compliment to Callahan not a slight to Lucic.

About adding size - what is the ultimate ends of adding size? To get tough, physical players who aren't afraid to go in the dirty areas and battle for the puck no matter who else is there. That's Callahan. He plays big in the truest sense. Lucic plays that way also and that's awesome for him but you can't say that Callahan doesn't do all the things that you want players with size to do.

A video by the great Loffen for demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aLUZxJ9iQo

I would take Callahan over Lucic every single day.

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08-17-2011, 02:06 AM
  #96
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Lucic is an overrated goon he gets a few garbage goals.
He is inconsistent, only as good as his linemates.
His defense stinks, he can't skate.
He just is overrated by that "great" hockeytown which could not sell out playoff games in 2003.....
No need to undermine Lucic to compliment Callahan.

Lucic is a good hockey player. Good complimentary winger. He just isn't as effective or valuable to a hockey club as Ryan Callahan — that's all.

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Yup. He was a 1st liner on an elite team, Callahan is a 2nd liner on a team that has struggled making the playoffs recently.
Neither of the two are legitimate 1st line players.

They can, however, both play 1st line ES strength minutes without looking out of place.

Callahan has been cast as a 1st line RW for this club in 2 of the last 3 seasons. This year, and 08-09. On a team with a legitimate top-line RW, he's a 2nd line player — a very good one, at that. Same as Lucic. If you put him on Vancouver, San Jose, Tampa — he isn't going to play in a 1st line role. He was played in a 1st line role because he does a good job of opening up space for his linemates with his size and board skills. He's not going to carry a line, however. He's always going to be the complimentary player on his line. That isn't an insult, either — that's just the type of player he is. Now, Callahan certainly doesn't have the ability to carry a first line, but he could definitely carry a line getting 2nd/3rd line ES minutes, IMO.


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08-17-2011, 02:16 AM
  #97
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We have enough grit. No need to trade our best defenseman for a 2nd liner.
I'd rather have Okposo

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08-17-2011, 11:24 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
No need to undermine Lucic to compliment Callahan.

Lucic is a good hockey player. Good complimentary winger. He just isn't as effective or valuable to a hockey club as Ryan Callahan that's all.



Neither of the two are legitimate 1st line players.

They can, however, both play 1st line ES strength minutes without looking out of place.

Callahan has been cast as a 1st line RW for this club in 2 of the last 3 seasons. This year, and 08-09. On a team with a legitimate top-line RW, he's a 2nd line player a very good one, at that. Same as Lucic. If you put him on Vancouver, San Jose, Tampa he isn't going to play in a 1st line role. He was played in a 1st line role because he does a good job of opening up space for his linemates with his size and board skills. He's not going to carry a line, however. He's always going to be the complimentary player on his line. That isn't an insult, either that's just the type of player he is. Now, Callahan certainly doesn't have the ability to carry a first line, but he could definitely carry a line getting 2nd/3rd line ES minutes, IMO.
You realize that your avatar is a Blackhawks silhouette with Hossa in a Wings jersey and helmet, right? (And yes, I realize that by the time you read this, it'll be 34 avatars later).

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08-17-2011, 09:49 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
You realize that your avatar is a Blackhawks silhouette with Hossa in a Wings jersey and helmet, right? (And yes, I realize that by the time you read this, it'll be 34 avatars later).
Yeah, I just like the way it looks.

Also, Hossa is one of my favorite players.

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08-17-2011, 10:40 PM
  #100
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I haven't read through the whole thread but I feel the need to ask this crucial question:

What incentive does BOS have to trade one of their core young players that is the face of the franchise right after they won the Stanley Cup.

Per the OP's question, while Staal would be a great addition to their blueline, it doesn't even come close to filling the offensive void left by Lucic.

You also have to consider the fact that Boston has some good young defenders ready to go in their system--with the main piece being Caron.

There is no way you can logically spin it so that it would be beneficial for Boston to trade the face of their franchise right off a Stanley Cup victory.

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