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Old
08-17-2011, 06:25 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
O'D was a great signing cause it was 1 year and cheap. Lilja is 2 years and more expensive.
O'Donnel had a 1.3M cap hit last season. I don't think that he would have signed a new contract for less than 1M with the Flyers based on the fact that he played each game last season.

O'Donnel signing with the Flyers for 850K like he did with the Blackhawks is intriguing but just pure speculation imho!
Put it that way: 1M for a 40 year old 6/7 defenseman would have been too much. The Lilja signing is not great but adequate.

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08-17-2011, 08:14 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by tuckrr
I understand that, and I agree with you. BUT, do you understand how bad it would look to casual fans/ players if we just dropped him? Even our goalie coach jeff Reese was high on Leighton at that point.

Its not NHL 11, you have to act in a decent fashion and take care of your own to some degree.

(Imagine you are a Leighton fan for a second...you believe Leighton thrives in our system. You see the SV %% the GAS and the shutouts, and say "hey, imagine what this guy could do with a full year in our system". You believe the risk is worth taking, because the payoff is so high...the cost is low.

He's a fan favorite, a player favorite, and a coach favorite, and he wants to stay in philly.)


From that point of view (and its not just fans with that view...its players and coaches too)
If you don't sign this guy its a crime.

As a GM you can't just throw a guy under the bus like that (for no reason) because it will effect the organization elsewhere.

Differences of opinion happen, and you have to respect them to some degree.


(Just sayin ...)
Really guy? No reason to dump him? How about being reason numero uno that this team failed to end their 35 year cup drought?

The guy was a fan favorite? In what friggin universe is this? I know plenty of Flyers fans young, old, diehard, casual, and maybe 5% of them don't hate Leighton.

Besides, arguing that the fans' perspective should have any merit in making important decisions like this one is laughable at best. Fans care about winning and finally getting the cup again. If homer had made an astute goaltending signing Leighton would have been forgotten about as quickly as our cup dreams vanished when he couldn't make a routine save - like he had proven over the course of his career.

What you see is what you get from Leighton and anyone with any sense at all saw the writing on the wall the second the Flyers hitched their wagon onto Leighton's gaping five hole. It's actually embarassing that there are Flyers fans out there that can justify Holmgren and Leighton's failure here

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08-17-2011, 08:24 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers
But you are missing my point. If they are interested in Lilja, why would they wait to see what Hannan or anyone else was going to sign for if they weren't interested in someone else. Do you really think that Homer said, "Crap, we gotta sign someone. ANYONE! QUICK!" Or do you think maybe they said, "Hey, we like this Lilja guy and we can probably get him for between $500k and $1M too." I'm guessing it was the latter.

Also, how did this backfire? Lilja didn't even step on the ice yet. You don't like him and would have rather had Hannan so it backfired? Why don't you let the season start first before you start acting like you know more than the GM. Maybe it wasn't the best move, but just because Scott "Bobby Orr" Hannan signed for only $250k more doesn't mean that signing Lilja "backfired" on the Flyers somehow. We won't know until the season starts.

But my point remains the same whether or not Lilja plays 1 game for the Flyers and sucks it up or he wins the Norris Trophy. If there is a player you want, and he is available, you get him. Otherwise you risk losing him. It doesn't matter that you as a fan don't think he is a good player, if the GM and company are interested in a player, why would they wait to see who else is available? If you are just playing the market so to speak, then yeah let things shake out. But if you want player X, why would you wait to see where other people play and see who else is available if you aren't interested in other players? I mean, I can see it now. The Flyers wait until this week and sign Lilja. Then it's "OMG why didn't he sign (insert player here) last week? This is what happens when you wait! I can't believe how stupid Homer is! If a player signs with another team it is guaranteed that means he would have also signed in Philly and probably even for less if Homer wasn't so stupid."
Dude, what kind of crazy abilities do you think Andreas fricken Lilja possess that makes it at all reasonable to throw all other options out the window and approach him like he's Brad Richards on day one of free agency?

If you can't see the benefits of letting the market play out before making signings then you are being willfully ignorant. As has just shown here, significantly a better player was sitting around for weeks because the market turned out to be a buyer's market on lower rung defensemen. The capitals aqcuired a top 10 goaltender for a fraction of the term and committment that the Flyers had to make because they properly read the market. It's all just common sense

Holmgren has proven in the past they he lacks patience and it has resulted in bad contracts and poor decisions. It isn't something new on this issue

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08-17-2011, 09:18 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Dude, what kind of crazy abilities do you think Andreas fricken Lilja possess that makes it at all reasonable to throw all other options out the window and approach him like he's Brad Richards on day one of free agency?

If you can't see the benefits of letting the market play out before making signings then you are being willfully ignorant. As has just shown here, significantly a better player was sitting around for weeks because the market turned out to be a buyer's market on lower rung defensemen. The capitals aqcuired a top 10 goaltender for a fraction of the term and committment that the Flyers had to make because they properly read the market. It's all just common sense

Holmgren has proven in the past they he lacks patience and it has resulted in bad contracts and poor decisions. It isn't something new on this issue
I'm not sure I'd call Hannan a significantly better player. I'm also not sure many of you understand how this whole business operates. Hannan signed in Washington and so did Vokoun. Great. This isn't fantasy hockey. Just because a guy is a UFA doesn't mean he is going to sign in Philly. Maybe Philly didn't want Hannan @ $1 mil. Maybe they thought Bryz is better than Vokoun. Maybe both of those players had hearts set on Washington from day one. Its not as simple as Hannan and Vokoun signed there so they would have signed here. That just is not how it works. And as far as Vokoun goes, I think he would have been a good choice, but not as good as Bryz. Cheaper, almost certainly, but better? I don't think so. I'd rather have a better goalie than a better contract.

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08-17-2011, 09:34 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm not sure I'd call Hannan a significantly better player. I'm also not sure many of you understand how this whole business operates. Hannan signed in Washington and so did Vokoun. Great. This isn't fantasy hockey. Just because a guy is a UFA doesn't mean he is going to sign in Philly. Maybe Philly didn't want Hannan @ $1 mil. Maybe they thought Bryz is better than Vokoun. Maybe both of those players had hearts set on Washington from day one. Its not as simple as Hannan and Vokoun signed there so they would have signed here. That just is not how it works. And as far as Vokoun goes, I think he would have been a good choice, but not as good as Bryz. Cheaper, almost certainly, but better? I don't think so. I'd rather have a better goalie than a better contract.
Vokoun signed with the only team left standing... you really think he had his heart set on Washington and no one else? Really?

As folks have noted, you don't need to do all your business on or before July 1st.

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08-17-2011, 09:48 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Vokoun signed with the only team left standing... you really think he had his heart set on Washington and no one else? Really?

As folks have noted, you don't need to do all your business on or before July 1st.
I was just using that to illustrate my point that other things go in to signing besides numbers (though however unlikely it seems, for all we know he did have his heart set there). I agree Vokoun likely would have signed here if pursued and almost certainly for cheaper. But I'd rather have Bryz than Vokoun. Bryz's contract is not great, obviously, but I'd still take him over Vokoun. But the mere fact that Player A signs in City B for X million dollars does not mean 1) the Flyers were ever interested in that player and 2) that the player would have signed here for that (or any) amount.

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08-17-2011, 09:56 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I was just using that to illustrate my point that other things go in to signing besides numbers (though however unlikely it seems, for all we know he did have his heart set there). I agree Vokoun likely would have signed here if pursued and almost certainly for cheaper. But I'd rather have Bryz than Vokoun. Bryz's contract is not great, obviously, but I'd still take him over Vokoun. But the mere fact that Player A signs in City B for X million dollars does not mean 1) the Flyers were ever interested in that player and 2) that the player would have signed here for that (or any) amount.
Vokoun and Bryz's play over the next couple years is probably close to a wash given what Vokoun has been doing. Vokoun is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper... so he has a huge edge in the short-term over Bryz. From the Flyers' perspective, the Bryz contract essentially ends any chance of Bob emerging as a franchise goalie here in Philadelphia... something he displayed flashes of last year as a rookie playing in NA for the first time.

Vokoun was, by far, the better option for the Flyers both from a cost perspective, and in the long-term potential of the organization with Bob.

In the future, if you want to cite examples to make a point, you should probably pick examples that actually work for the point your making. Vokoun signed with the only team that offered him a contract. If we'd put a contract in front of him on July 1st, I have to imagine we would have had a good chance at landing him... same for a guy like Hannan (who I would prefer to Lilja for a host of reasons).


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08-17-2011, 10:08 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
While we were never fans of Leighton on this board, we had just been to the SCF, and not signing him would've been absurd. No GM could've let him go and not looked bad to his entire team.
I know we've moved onto other angles of this, but I want to point out to this particular line of reasoning that the Hawks didn't resign Niemi, who won the Cup. Leighton being dumped after an SC fail wouldn't have been a blip on the historic radar of teams who have traded/let go players who were a significant part of a championship run the previous year.

And there was a pretty widespread line of thinking that the Flyers, then, were a strong goalie away from having won the Cup.

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Resigning Leighton was the biggest no-brainer of the year, no one knew he'd be injured all year.
You mean no one knew he was already injured, but wasn't saying anything.

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Lilja is here for two years to set an example, and we don't have cap issues for these next two years...
I'm curious what example he is being expected to set.

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I don't want to throw the young guys in there out of desperation when they aren't ready to succeed!
That's a pretty elusive criterion to bring up a young player. Do you mean their level of readiness is below what you believe would be beneficial to the team, or the team's current status is inappropriate? There's no sarcasm in this question; I want to clarify your position.

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08-17-2011, 10:52 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I agree Vokoun likely would have signed here if pursued and almost certainly for cheaper. But I'd rather have Bryz than Vokoun. Bryz's contract is not great, obviously, but I'd still take him over Vokoun.
What evidence do you have that bryzgalov is better at all than vokoun, let alone 50 million dollars and possible debilitating contract for up to 9 years better?

It's funny to watch fans here brush off this situation like it no big deal. It was flat out botched

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08-17-2011, 11:21 AM
  #60
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One of the big issues with Bryz's contract is that it continues paying him a good amount of money right until the end. Unless someone in the KHL is willing to heave loads of cash at him when he's older, he doesn't have much incentive to leave. We better hope he ages exceptionally well.

I would have preferred Vokoun.

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08-17-2011, 11:53 AM
  #61
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Homer's always going to have at least one head scratching signing every year. Lijla was this years. He could always contract the walker/rathje degenerative body syndrome if he needs to.

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08-17-2011, 02:53 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But you are missing my point. If they are interested in Lilja, why would they wait to see what Hannan or anyone else was going to sign for if they weren't interested in someone else. Do you really think that Homer said, "Crap, we gotta sign someone. ANYONE! QUICK!" Or do you think maybe they said, "Hey, we like this Lilja guy and we can probably get him for between $500k and $1M too." I'm guessing it was the latter.

Also, how did this backfire? Lilja didn't even step on the ice yet. You don't like him and would have rather had Hannan so it backfired? Why don't you let the season start first before you start acting like you know more than the GM. Maybe it wasn't the best move, but just because Scott "Bobby Orr" Hannan signed for only $250k more doesn't mean that signing Lilja "backfired" on the Flyers somehow. We won't know until the season starts.

But my point remains the same whether or not Lilja plays 1 game for the Flyers and sucks it up or he wins the Norris Trophy. If there is a player you want, and he is available, you get him. Otherwise you risk losing him. It doesn't matter that you as a fan don't think he is a good player, if the GM and company are interested in a player, why would they wait to see who else is available? If you are just playing the market so to speak, then yeah let things shake out. But if you want player X, why would you wait to see where other people play and see who else is available if you aren't interested in other players? I mean, I can see it now. The Flyers wait until this week and sign Lilja. Then it's "OMG why didn't he sign (insert player here) last week? This is what happens when you wait! I can't believe how stupid Homer is! If a player signs with another team it is guaranteed that means he would have also signed in Philly and probably even for less if Homer wasn't so stupid."
Why would anyone want Lilja as a first option, though? That's so stupid to want him over Hannan, over McCabe, even over Huskins (no matter how bad he is, he's better than Lilja and he's younger)

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08-17-2011, 02:57 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by o Hamhuis 2 x View Post
Why would anyone want Lilja as a first option, though? That's so stupid to want him over Hannan, over McCabe, even over Huskins (no matter how bad he is, he's better than Lilja and he's younger)
There would at least be room for discussion if Lilja's contract was one year. For two years? No real defense for that.

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08-17-2011, 03:04 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by o Hamhuis 2 x View Post
Why would anyone want Lilja as a first option, though? That's so stupid to want him over Hannan, over McCabe, even over Huskins (no matter how bad he is, he's better than Lilja and he's younger)
The only thing I agree with you on is that he is younger.

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08-17-2011, 03:32 PM
  #65
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I know we've moved onto other angles of this, but I want to point out to this particular line of reasoning that the Hawks didn't resign Niemi, who won the Cup. Leighton being dumped after an SC fail wouldn't have been a blip on the historic radar of teams who have traded/let go players who were a significant part of a championship run the previous year.

And there was a pretty widespread line of thinking that the Flyers, then, were a strong goalie away from having won the Cup.



You mean no one knew he was already injured, but wasn't saying anything.


I'm curious what example he is being expected to set.


That's a pretty elusive criterion to bring up a young player. Do you mean their level of readiness is below what you believe would be beneficial to the team, or the team's current status is inappropriate? There's no sarcasm in this question; I want to clarify your position.
bartulis/gustafsson are not ready to consistently make the simple plays against high level players in a high-pressure situation (ie playoffs) They are just kids still, and the experience that Lilja possesses makes him more mentally prepared.

I know its undervalued on these boards and in the EA games, but veterancy and experience are important aspects of hockey (especially on defense).
having a calm, level headed defense, is just as important as a fast-skating, energetic defense IMO...and the GM agrees with that sentiment (in fact most competing clubs follow that line of thinking)


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One of the big issues with Bryz's contract is that it continues paying him a good amount of money right until the end. Unless someone in the KHL is willing to heave loads of cash at him when he's older, he doesn't have much incentive to leave. We better hope he ages exceptionally well.

I would have preferred Vokoun.
vokoun would not have signed here as cheap as he signed in washington.

Vokoun signed a 1 year deal to prove that he can play well on a contending team...next year he will look to get paid. Also we already made our move, so he had no options.

(not speaking directly at you, just people who keep saying vokoun is SOOOO much cheaper.)

if we had signed him for a few years, it'd cost us around 4 mil

bryz at 5.66 is just as good at vokoun at 4, but more importantly shows the clubs emphasis on a franchise goalie, not just another 3-4 year stint.

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08-17-2011, 03:47 PM
  #66
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Vokoun would have signed for cheaper than Bryz, and for shorter. We wouldn't be running the risk of having a goalie we can't get rid of when he's 37 and has a 5 mil cap hit.

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08-17-2011, 05:00 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Vokoun and Bryz's play over the next couple years is probably close to a wash given what Vokoun has been doing. Vokoun is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper... so he has a huge edge in the short-term over Bryz. From the Flyers' perspective, the Bryz contract essentially ends any chance of Bob emerging as a franchise goalie here in Philadelphia... something he displayed flashes of last year as a rookie playing in NA for the first time.

Vokoun was, by far, the better option for the Flyers both from a cost perspective, and in the long-term potential of the organization with Bob.

In the future, if you want to cite examples to make a point, you should probably pick examples that actually work for the point your making. Vokoun signed with the only team that offered him a contract. If we'd put a contract in front of him on July 1st, I have to imagine we would have had a good chance at landing him... same for a guy like Hannan (who I would prefer to Lilja for a host of reasons).
I agree Vokoun is a better option financially, but I'd still rather have Bryz. I think the team is better off with Bryz in net and the team the way it is than with Vokoun in net and with whomever else they used the money on (assuming all the other deals still went through and so forth). Who knows what the team would look like right now if Vokoun were in net and Bryz wasn't. Richie and Carter would probably be here still (maybe?), no Couturier for sure, Maybe Leino still? Who knows?

As far as using an example, I didn't say that is why he signed there, I was simply illustrating that we don't know what was going on in his head or anywhere else. For all we know that is exactly what he wanted. Just because the Caps were the only team to offer him a contract doesn't mean he didn't want to go there. I was simply showing that we don't know if he (or any other player) would have signed here just because he (or any other player) signed there for less money.

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What evidence do you have that bryzgalov is better at all than vokoun, let alone 50 million dollars and possible debilitating contract for up to 9 years better?

It's funny to watch fans here brush off this situation like it no big deal. It was flat out botched
What evidence? Have you seen them play? I am not saying that Bryz is Roy and Vokoun is Leighton, but I don't think I am alone in saying Bryz is better than Vokoun. I didn't say the contract was good at all, but again, I'd rather have the better goalie than the better contract.

I happen to think it is funny that every move Homer makes is "wrong" especially before the season starts. If Vokoun is terrible and Bryz wins the Hart and Vezina, then is it worth it or would you still rather have Vokoun? Let's let the puck drop before we talk about this maybe?


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08-17-2011, 05:10 PM
  #68
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I'd happily take Richards and Carter with Vokoun over a bunch of unproven guys and Bryz...especially since our defense will be retiring by the time the new faces can realistically be expected to compete for a Cup.

Last year's team with Vokoun added would certainly be an improvement. This year's team is nothing but a huge question mark, and will very likely be worse.

edit: Every move Homer makes isn't automatically bad. Only the bad ones are.

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08-17-2011, 06:07 PM
  #69
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I'd happily take Richards and Carter with Vokoun over a bunch of unproven guys and Bryz...especially since our defense will be retiring by the time the new faces can realistically be expected to compete for a Cup.

Last year's team with Vokoun added would certainly be an improvement. This year's team is nothing but a huge question mark, and will very likely be worse.

edit: Every move Homer makes isn't automatically bad. Only the bad ones are.
thats completely ignoring the fact that richards/carter were on their way out though.

What about this team with vokoun vs this team with bryz?

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08-17-2011, 06:21 PM
  #70
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thats completely ignoring the fact that richards/carter were on their way out though.

What about this team with vokoun vs this team with bryz?
I'd still take it. Vokoun would have a more reasonable contract (unless the organization decided to screw it up), and then we could transition to Bob.

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08-17-2011, 08:04 PM
  #71
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I'd still take it. Vokoun would have a more reasonable contract (unless the organization decided to screw it up), and then we could transition to Bob.
thats a fair opinion

I think bryz @ 5.66 vs vokoun @ 4 is about equal.

but relying on Bob is something this organization (ie snider) simply didnt want to do after this year. (that is also a reasonable opinion after this year...and thanks to all the other years since hexy)

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08-17-2011, 08:18 PM
  #72
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The problem with Bryz is that it's pretty doubtful he will be worth anywhere near his cap hit in 5-7 seasons (Unless he's an outlier...how many 35+ goalies are worth 5 mil?), he won't have a lot of incentive to retire since he'll still have a pretty good paycheck, and we won't be able to send him down or trade him unless he allows it. I sure hope he's freaking brilliant for at least the next 3-4 seasons, and ideally for the next 9.

If the organization decided to give Bryz the contract they did because Bob cracked under pressure during his rookie year/1st year in North America, that's an extremely short-sighted and foolish decision. Players develop, physically AND mentally. Bob was praised for his mental fortitude throughout the season, and it's only going to improve as he matures.

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08-17-2011, 08:42 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The problem with Bryz is that it's pretty doubtful he will be worth anywhere near his cap hit in 5-7 seasons (Unless he's an outlier...how many 35+ goalies are worth 5 mil?), he won't have a lot of incentive to retire since he'll still have a pretty good paycheck, and we won't be able to send him down or trade him unless he allows it. I sure hope he's freaking brilliant for at least the next 3-4 seasons, and ideally for the next 9.

If the organization decided to give Bryz the contract they did because Bob cracked under pressure during his rookie year/1st year in North America, that's an extremely short-sighted and foolish decision. Players develop, physically AND mentally. Bob was praised for his mental fortitude throughout the season, and it's only going to improve as he matures.

the organization had it with leaving goalies up to chance. Bob has a ton of question marks right now. Bryz doesnt. Sure, MAYBE this is an impatient move, but its the safer one.


Bryz COULD work for the entire contract, and if not...we say welcome to Adirondack, and he says eff that im going to mother russia.

its really REALLY far in the future to worry about that (not that you don't take it into account...but pieces move around over time)

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08-17-2011, 08:46 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
the organization had it with leaving goalies up to chance. Bob has a ton of question marks right now. Bryz doesnt. Sure, MAYBE this is an impatient move, but its the safer one.


Bryz COULD work for the entire contract, and if not...we say welcome to Adirondack, and he says eff that im going to mother russia.

its really REALLY far in the future to worry about that (not that you don't take it into account...but pieces move around over time)
Or, he could just say "F that" without going to Russia and then the team is completely screwed. He makes damned good money through most of the contract. He makes 2.5 mil in his second to last year. 5.5 the year before that. So we really need to hope he's still worth his cap hit 7 years from now, or we are most likely stuck with it.

You are right though, these are problems we won't truly need to worry about for quite some time. The next 3-4 years should be pretty fun...interesting in the least.

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08-17-2011, 08:56 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Or, he could just say "F that" without going to Russia and then the team is completely screwed. He makes damned good money through most of the contract. He makes 2.5 mil in his second to last year. 5.5 the year before that. So we really need to hope he's still worth his cap hit 7 years from now, or we are most likely stuck with it.

You are right though, these are problems we won't truly need to worry about for quite some time. The next 3-4 years should be pretty fun...interesting in the least.
eff that is what all the cool kids are saying

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