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Mikhail Grigorenko...

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08-08-2011, 11:36 PM
  #1
checkerdome
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Mikhail Grigorenko...

Given that Mikhail Grigorenko currently plays in Russia,
is there a chance he would choose the KHL over the NHL, even though he is projected as a top 3 2012 NHL pick?



Sorry guys. I didn't do my homework very thoroughly.

He will be playing in the Q next year, which makes this message moot.

I would delete it if I knew how.


Last edited by checkerdome: 08-08-2011 at 11:43 PM.
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08-09-2011, 03:39 AM
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Peter25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by preissingg View Post
He will be playing in the Q next year, which makes this message moot.
This is very true. With this decision Grigorenko willingly destroyed his own hockey career.

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08-09-2011, 04:20 AM
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Do you hav info where will play Kamaev next season? As I know CSKA offered him a contract, I dont know if he accepted it.

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08-09-2011, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Do you hav info where will play Kamaev next season? As I know CSKA offered him a contract, I dont know if he accepted it.
Denis Kamaev;

Drafted 2011, round 4 #88 overall by CSKA Moskva in the KHL Draft

Drafted 2011, round 1 #41 overall by Rouyn-Noranda Huskies in the CHL Import Draft

I've googled his name and come up with articles in French and English about him being drafted by the QMJHL, but none of the articles say he will show up for sure.

In fact, one French article says he would have been drafted much higher if it was certain he'd come to Canada.

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08-10-2011, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by preissingg View Post
Denis Kamaev;

Drafted 2011, round 4 #88 overall by CSKA Moskva in the KHL Draft

Drafted 2011, round 1 #41 overall by Rouyn-Noranda Huskies in the CHL Import Draft

I've googled his name and come up with articles in French and English about him being drafted by the QMJHL, but none of the articles say he will show up for sure.

In fact, one French article says he would have been drafted much higher if it was certain he'd come to Canada.
Very good player one of the best in 94, I think he's coming to the Q

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08-10-2011, 06:46 AM
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Сейчас много ребят 94-го года рождения, с которыми я по сборной знаком, в Канаду поедут играть. Правда, большинство что-то в Квебек. Те же Миша Григоренко, Илья Николаев и Денис Камаев. В Онтарио, по-моему, только я и Даниил Жарков поедут.

from Kuptsov's interview- that sux!!!

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08-10-2011, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
Сейчас много ребят 94-го года рождения, с которыми я по сборной знаком, в Канаду поедут играть. Правда, большинство что-то в Квебек. Те же Миша Григоренко, Илья Николаев и Денис Камаев. В Онтарио, по-моему, только я и Даниил Жарков поедут.

from Kuptsov's interview- that sux!!!
I really dont understand these guys. I can understand why slovak go away. We dont have good junior league and also senior one is crappy and of course no juniors in senior league.

When I look at russians. They have solid MHL, they have also chance to make a KHL team. Of course, not at their 17, but 18 and later. Look at last season and Kucherov, Prokhorkin. We will see what happens next season. I can upload list of juniors (90 and later) who played KHL last season. These guys can play VHL too.

What do these 94 born guys want? to play KHL right now? I especially dont understand Kamaev and Grigs... maybe they think that moving to CHL is good for their nhl draft. NHL draft is nothing if you can not make a nhl team!!

I understand why Namestnikov moved last summer. His native team collapsed and playing MHL was not good enough. He was born in US, so understandable moving.

I dont understand guys like Yakupov who could play KHL last season. Example, Alshevskiy and Galimov played for Neftekhimik last season in KHL. I dont believe that Yakupov did not play if he was in teamīs organisation.

Can someone explain these stupid moving?

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08-10-2011, 09:17 AM
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PR for NHL.

I want to quote a song:

So tell me why
do we build castles in the sky
so tell me why?

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08-10-2011, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Can someone explain these stupid moving?
Larionov is the agent for Yakupov and a few other guys. Apparently he picks and chooses certain guys who he thinks will make it in North America. He thought it to be in his the best interest to come to the CHL. IMO I would trust the professor's judgement if he was telling me where to play. He stays in close contact with Yakupov when he is in Sarnia (Igor is in Detroit).

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08-10-2011, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
Larionov is the agent for Yakupov and a few other guys. Apparently he picks and chooses certain guys who he thinks will make it in North America. He thought it to be in his the best interest to come to the CHL. IMO I would trust the professor's judgement if he was telling me where to play. He stays in close contact with Yakupov when he is in Sarnia (Igor is in Detroit).
it is your opinion. Mine is that it it better for agent to sell you if you play in NA, CHL.

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08-10-2011, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I really dont understand these guys. I can understand why slovak go away. We dont have good junior league and also senior one is crappy and of course no juniors in senior league.

When I look at russians. They have solid MHL, they have also chance to make a KHL team. Of course, not at their 17, but 18 and later. Look at last season and Kucherov, Prokhorkin. We will see what happens next season. I can upload list of juniors (90 and later) who played KHL last season. These guys can play VHL too.

What do these 94 born guys want? to play KHL right now? I especially dont understand Kamaev and Grigs... maybe they think that moving to CHL is good for their nhl draft. NHL draft is nothing if you can not make a nhl team!!

I understand why Namestnikov moved last summer. His native team collapsed and playing MHL was not good enough. He was born in US, so understandable moving.

I dont understand guys like Yakupov who could play KHL last season. Example, Alshevskiy and Galimov played for Neftekhimik last season in KHL. I dont believe that Yakupov did not play if he was in teamīs organisation.

Can someone explain these stupid moving?
I can only give you the Western perspective, which I'm sure you understand already, but simply put NHL teams would rather draft and develop guys where they have more control over them and have an easier time keeping tabs on their development.

Each organization has it's own opinions on things like CHL vs NCAA vs Europe vs lower tiered NA/Euro leagues (USHL, BCHL, OJHL, EJHL, MHL, Sweden's SuperElite, etc.). If the goal for these kids, Yakupov and Grigs, is to be a high draft pick and make the NHL then it's really in their best interest to take some input from their respective clubs. I realize that sound funny when they haven't even been drafted and have no respective NHL club currently, but there's no denying it's much easier to generate exposure, which admittedly is moot for elite talents like Grigs and Yakupov, and foster a relationship with an NHL club when you're in the same continent.

Look at a team like the New York Rangers, they selected JT Miller in the first round and a few weeks ago he breaks his commitment to University of North Dakota to sign with Plymouth in the OHL. What made him change his mind? The Rangers front office who prefer the CHL over NCAA lobbying him to go there.

For guys like Grigs and Yakupov they know where the NHL clubs are at right now and it's pretty clear there's a trend developing which shuns drafting out of Russia, something I find wholly ridiculous and think guys like Yzerman in Tampa who continue drafting Russians will make out like bandits while everyone else fears nothing. If we separate ourselves from the situation and ignore league names, why would these incredibly talented young players who have aspirations of being a high pick in the NHL draft stay in a league that would hurt their draft status when there's other leagues, more than willing to add them, which would do the opposite and only help their draft stock.

I understand your rebuttal to this is well who cares about draft status if it's an inferior path to developing, but I'm not sure it's as concrete as you make it to be. I honestly think one of the biggest perceived issues with KHL development, which could change with the MHL developing, is the idea that these teens don't get good playing time in the KHL. The KHL still has a few roster spots designated for young Russians right? For an NHL club, why should they invest their first round pick in a kid who they'll have little contact with and could be relegated to 4th line minutes or bottom pairing minutes?

Spending those high draft picks are just as valuable as spending money on players, so teams want to have some control over the products they spend said high picks on. (Again, see all the recent de-commits from the NCAA. JT Miller, Connor Murphy, and Reid Boucher to name 3 in the past few weeks from the '11 draft class alone.)

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08-10-2011, 11:31 AM
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Russians always have to learn things hard way.

They will keep bumping their head to the wall for many more years until they finally get it.

Russia will totally lose the very good 1995 generation as well because the best of them will head to the CHL and be completely ruined as will Grigorenko, Yakubov and other Russians currently playing in the CHL. So don't get yours hopes up about the 1995 generation. You will only be disappointed. It does not matter how good they are now because they will be ruined later.

This will seriously hurt Russian hockey and national team, since no new top talents will be coming up in next years, because the CHL will systemically ruin each Russian that has the ability to be a top player.

I hope that players born in the late 1990s will finally get it and stay in Russia. In any case there will be long and hard years ahead for the Russian national team. Russia mostly will have to rely on players born in 1980-1990 because the younger generations will be ruined by the CHL.


Last edited by Peter25: 08-10-2011 at 11:37 AM.
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08-10-2011, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Russians always have to learn things hard way.

They will keep bumping their head to the wall for many more years until they finally get it.

Russia will totally lose the very good 1995 generation as well because the best of them will head to the CHL and be completely ruined as will Grigorenko, Yakubov and other Russians currently playing in the CHL. So don't get yours hopes up about the 1995 generation. You will only be disappointed. It does not matter how good they are now because they will be ruined later.

This will seriously hurt Russian hockey and national team, since no new top talents will be coming up in next years, because the CHL will systemically ruin each Russian that has the ability to be a top player.

I hope that players born in the late 1990s will finally get it and stay in Russia. In any case there will be long and hard years for the Russian national team ahead. They will have to mostly rely on players born in 1980-1990 because the younger generations will be ruined by the CHL.
While I agree with you, ruined is a loud statement, they will turn A and A+ level Europe prospects into B-C+ North America prospects pretty often though.

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08-10-2011, 11:40 AM
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Bring Back Scuderi
thanks, I see it very well.

Quote:
Each organization has it's own opinions on things like CHL vs NCAA vs Europe vs lower tiered NA/Euro leagues (USHL, BCHL, OJHL, EJHL, MHL, Sweden's SuperElite, etc.).
Yes, NHL club think that the best way for developing guy XY is playing in CHL, another one prefers USHL, next AHL.... etc. It is what club thinks. Is it always right? I dont think so... there are many examples from past. IMO these russians who are mentioned here, made mistake. Many NHL clubs dont know how to develop Europeans.. I like developing philosophy when kid develops in his native enviroment until early 20.

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08-10-2011, 11:41 AM
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While I agree with you, ruined is a loud statement, they will turn A and A+ level Europe prospects into B-C+ North America prospects pretty often though.
this!

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08-10-2011, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Bring Back Scuderi
thanks, I see it very well.



Yes, NHL club think that the best way for developing guy XY is playing in CHL, another one prefers USHL, next AHL.... etc. It is what club thinks. Is it always right? I dont think so... there are many examples from past. IMO these russians who are mentioned here, made mistake. Many NHL clubs dont know how to develop Europeans.. I like developing philosophy when kid develops in his native enviroment until early 20.
The thing is though, if I dug up examples of players who developed domestically into their twenties and then came to the NHL the busted, would that mean European leagues don't know how to develop talent?

Absolutely not, but that's the idea here with Russians in the CHL. I saw the list of Russian CHLers in one of those Russian factor threads but the thing is I'm not sure that sample size is nearly large enough to conclude that NHL clubs don't know how to develop Europeans.

I could say look at Shirokov, he was homegrown but that didn't mean he could crack the NHL. How about the lesser famous Alexander Nikulin? (Amur, not Kazan; sorry I'm not sure what you guys use to refer to team names) How about Vitali Vishnevskiy (even though he's Ukranian right?)? Andrei Zyuzin is another who developed at home but still didn't last.

All of those players developed in Russia, as far as I know but I'm sure you guys can clear up my misgivings if appropriate, and didn't really last in the NHL. Each player should be viewed independently. Sure there's plenty of examples of players of all nationalities busting out, whether they're import players or playing domestically, but that doesn't mean every countrymen who follows them is destined for the same fate.

It may not have worked for guys like Volchkov or Nikita Alexeev but it sure did for Radulov. Give Yakupov and Grigs a few more years and I hope you have a few more success stories. Yakupov's already had a better season on a really bad team, at a younger age mind you, than Aleexev or Shvidki did after their draft years. I'd say the future is very, very bright for him already.

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08-10-2011, 12:48 PM
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For fun/adventure/something to do (besides the stuff already mentioned)

Seriuously, these guys are skilled confident men who arent developmental machines only.


My Analogy:
How many students want to study away from their hometown? Pretty much everyone.
How many students want to study abroad?

sure a perspective student could stay in his parents house study all day and become a top notch masters candidate but no.

Many tend to move in on res, party, get a gf, and have decent marks(below their potential).



same with these guys. Okay, Yakupov could have satyed in Nizhnekamsk till he was 22and then made the NHL at a better line or salary but **** it.

The kid chose to come on an adventure. Go to a new country, meet new people, diversify skills etc.


Alot of ordinairy Russians immigrate to NA and many Russians that live in cities(for example Tolyatti) want to leave whenever they can. They like the western world.

If a young hockey player can leave home, live on his own, join a brand new club, meet new people, play in a new style, be part of the NA hockey community(draft, ohl all stars, HNL camps etc.) and ultimately make the NHL anyway. I think I would also sacrifice A+ to A- or A to B. Besides they can always return and albeit at a worse condition, they are welcome and have NA exdperience and are cool


Besides, there is no guarantee that anyone will get ruined and eventually NA coaches can adapt and cater to European style perhaps....

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08-10-2011, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Russians always have to learn things hard way.



Russia will totally lose the very good 1995 generation as well because the best of them will head to the CHL and be completely ruined as will Grigorenko, Yakubov and other Russians currently playing in the CHL. So don't get yours hopes up about the 1995 generation. You will only be disappointed. It does not matter how good they are now because they will be ruined later.

This will seriously hurt Russian hockey and national team, since no new top talents will be coming up in next years, because the CHL will systemically ruin each Russian that has the ability to be a top player.

I hope that players born in the late 1990s will finally get it and stay in Russia. In any case there will be long and hard years ahead for the Russian national team. Russia mostly will have to rely on players born in 1980-1990 because the younger generations will be ruined by the CHL.
You and other people on this board use the expression "ruin" in describing what happens to the most talented young Russian players when they play in the CHL.

Could you specify in which ways the CHL has a negative impact on high end Russian talent that goes to play over there?

It was my understanding, as an outsider, that young players didn't get much quality ice time in the KHL. Consequently their development was hindered.

I'm sure you've got solid reasons for believing what you believe, I'm simply curious as to how you think the CHL ruins young Russian talent.

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08-15-2011, 11:32 PM
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I think Grigorenko made a mistake coming over, and my opinion has nothing to do with the argument that all these guys bicker about on these boards (CHL or KHL better for development etc blah blah blah) I just think that now that he is here he is going to be compared to Yakupov and live up to everything he has done. I mean, really he is going to have to have a 50 goal rookie campaign in order to surpass him. Chances are extremely thin. Nail has the inside track because he already had a perfect season. Mikhail now has to show up and take the pressure of surpassing that perfect season. If he stayed home, there would have been 95% less pressure. I think the media is going to eat this guy alive.

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08-18-2011, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
I think Grigorenko made a mistake coming over, and my opinion has nothing to do with the argument that all these guys bicker about on these boards (CHL or KHL better for development etc blah blah blah) I just think that now that he is here he is going to be compared to Yakupov and live up to everything he has done. I mean, really he is going to have to have a 50 goal rookie campaign in order to surpass him. Chances are extremely thin. Nail has the inside track because he already had a perfect season. Mikhail now has to show up and take the pressure of surpassing that perfect season. If he stayed home, there would have been 95% less pressure. I think the media is going to eat this guy alive.
Players will be rated by this season's numbers, if Grigorenko scores more and is more dominant than Yakupov, we'll see what happens. Yakupov won't get much more praise if his second season is not as good as his first...

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