If you have a point to make, it's better to say it rather than assuming people can guess what you're thinking.
TDMM made my point for me, which is why I thanked him.
If you really beleive power play production has nothing to do with offensive skill, then I don't know what to say to change you mind. Some things just shouldn't need to be explained.
I really don't think it's particularly fair to extrapolate Berard's post-injury performance on his whole career. Sure he was horrible defensively in his later career - but he was also half blind.
And the PP icetime debate is also stretching logic - players who played a similar amount on PP may have got similar amount of points. And why exactly do you think they played similar amount on the PP? Could it be because they had similar skills suited for PP?
You can't say with a straight face that having Lebda replace Lidstrom on Detroit's PP, with same icetime, would lead to no change in the PP's effectiveness.
I really don't think it's particularly fair to extrapolate Berard's post-injury performance on his whole career. Sure he was horrible defensively in his later career - but he was also half blind.
Very true, although those seasons due still matter in his all time value as a defenseman (unfortunately due to no fault of his own).
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And the PP icetime debate is also stretching logic - players who played a similar amount on PP may have got similar amount of points. And why exactly do you think they played similar amount on the PP? Could it be because they had similar skills suited for PP?
You can't say with a straight face that having Lebda replace Lidstrom on Detroit's PP, with same icetime, would lead to no change in the PP's effectiveness.
Yeah, it is a non-starter. I was going to use Brad Marsh as my counter example.
If you really beleive power play production has nothing to do with offensive skill, then I don't know what to say to change you mind. Some things just shouldn't need to be explained.
I don't believe that, no. I just don't think you've been making your point very well. Resorting to ad hominems doesn't help.
I don't believe that, no. I just don't think you've been making your point very well. Resorting to ad hominems doesn't help.
As I said already, I shouldn't even need to make the point, let alone make it well.
Also, as I already said, if somebody doesn't understand that better offensive players are going to be better in offensive situations, then they need more help than I can offer.
if somebody doesn't understand that better offensive players are going to be better in offensive situations, then they need more help than I can offer.
... and for the record, I don't beleive anyone is actually in this boat. Everyone knows this is true (which I why I don't need to "make my point")
There is only one person who is pretending that it isn't true, but he's just posturing in an attempt to lay the groundwork for future arguments in favour of his team
There is only one person who is pretending that it isn't true, but he's just posturing in an attempt to lay the groundwork for future arguments in favour of his team
And as I said, if you just make your argument, you don't have to descend into name-calling like this.
I wish I could respond to this, but apparently it is against forum rules.
question whether I've ever watched a hockey game, sure, but don't say many other people also question it without proof.
that's borderline libellous.
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian
You don't think that it is obvious that coaches in general play the players they feel are best suited to the powerplay on the powerplay?
of course they do, but that's not what I'm arguing. There are definite outliers, the best of which are taken in the ATD, the worst of which we won't be selecting here, but here in the MLD, if you look at a defenseman's PP production it is very proportional to their PP time, with few exceptions. They all appeared to have about the same PP skill, generally. And that does make some sense, considering we're all taking the 1000th-1400th-best players here, which means they're bound to be similar.
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Originally Posted by MadArcand
I really don't think it's particularly fair to extrapolate Berard's post-injury performance on his whole career. Sure he was horrible defensively in his later career - but he was also half blind.
That serves as an excuse for 2004 and 2006; however, he was not half blind in the 1998 season, and he was still 3rd in the league in ESGA/GP.
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You can't say with a straight face that having Lebda replace Lidstrom on Detroit's PP, with same icetime, would lead to no change in the PP's effectiveness.
You're talking about outliers on either side of the pack. I'm not saying that they are of similar effectiveness.
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur
.There is only one person who is pretending that it isn't true, but he's just posturing in an attempt to lay the groundwork for future arguments in favour of his team
Absolutely not. I actually plan to just accept the limitations of my players (something you absolutely refuse to do) and bank on the overall effectiveness of my defense corps (which includes their PP effectiveness as only one component, and a smaller one than ES and defensive ability) carrying me through.
Last edited by seventieslord: 08-18-2011 at 03:40 PM.
of course they do, but that's not what I'm arguing. There are definite outliers, the best of which are taken in the ATD, the worst of which we won't be selecting here, but here in the MLD, if you look at a defenseman's PP production it is very proportional to their PP time, with few exceptions. They all appeared to have about the same PP skill, generally. And that does make some sense, considering we're all taking the 1000th-1400th-best players here, which means they're bound to be similar..
You have a point to an extent - I think Brian Campbell's numbers in Chicago are very proportional to the amount of PP time he received - first he lost his role as the main QB to Duncan Keith (and even better PP QB than Campbell), then he lost his role on the top unit entirely because of Keith's chemistry with Seabrook.
But if you're saying the biggest difference between the numbers that Brian Campbell and Colin White put up is that Campbell received more PP time, I'm going to have to call BS.
But if you're saying the biggest difference between the numbers that Brian Campbell and Colin White put up is that Campbell received more PP time, I'm going to have to call BS.
Nope, that's not what I'm saying, so we're cool.
I'm referring specifically to defensemen in the MLD that one would actually place on the PP.
You really want me to make an agument to convince people that good offensive players are better in offensive situations than bad offensive players?
Only if that's a legitimate response to the argument you're countering.
My point is: if countering the argument is as obvious as you think it is in this case (meaning that the person making the argument is dense), then you're probably not understanding the argument. By presenting your response the other side can point that out and the discussion can continue.
Last edited by Iain Fyffe: 08-18-2011 at 05:44 PM.
I'm happy to win my first series ever ( ATD don't count I had a free pass )
To be fair Dreak took his team a little bit late in the draft.
Yes, definitely impressive to see the team Dreak constructed after missing the first 4 rounds of the draft. I had Dreak's team as higher than a 6th seed, myself.
