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07-02-2011, 01:27 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Sweden and Finland seem to be different than Russia. There is not an exodus of best hockey talent from Sweden and Finland to the CHL.
If I'm not mistaken Swe/Fin both have agreements with the NHL.

In addition, concerning the future, Russians have a very lucrative alternative to the NHL. NHL teams, therefore, must be 100% certain a Russian kid is committed to playing in NA. Agents realize getting a kid to commit to the CHL goes a long way in proving he's 'committed' to playing in NA.

I think it was Burmistrov who said he had to verbally ridicule the KHL to help convince NHL gm's he was committed to the NHL.

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07-02-2011, 02:00 PM
  #77
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Sweden and Finland seem to be different than Russia. There is not an exodus of best hockey talent from Sweden and Finland to the CHL.
Many different reasons for this. It is easier for one to crack the Senior roster in these countries. NHL teams have no problem drafting players at whatever level u-18, u-20, D.1 in Sweden for example so they know if they are good they will be seen and drafted unlike in Russia where even the best juniors are questionable picks if they are it will be late rounds most likely i.e Kitsyn, Marchenko. They have an junior league which is already established and well known from a young age, MHL is not yet as entrenched in Russian hockey culture yet or development. Kids want to make the KHL right away and therefore if it is difficult to crack a roster they will look at the CHL option.

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07-02-2011, 08:39 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
If I'm not mistaken Swe/Fin both have agreements with the NHL.

In addition, concerning the future, Russians have a very lucrative alternative to the NHL. NHL teams, therefore, must be 100% certain a Russian kid is committed to playing in NA. Agents realize getting a kid to commit to the CHL goes a long way in proving he's 'committed' to playing in NA.

I think it was Burmistrov who said he had to verbally ridicule the KHL to help convince NHL gm's he was committed to the NHL.
The transfer agreement that the NHL had with the RSL previously was nothing more than legalized ****. I can't remember if the NHL got Ovechkin and Malkin for nothing, or if they paid $250,000 for them. These guys will put more than a billion dollars in the pockets of NHL owners in the form of ticket sales, television, merchandising, advertising, etc. The Russians developed these players and got nothing in return. The NHL just skimmed the top and took all the high quality players out of the Russian system and spit the other ones out, leaving the Russian hockey system for dead. Those were the days when Russian teams couldn't make payroll for three, four, five months at a time.

I feel certain that the KHL will never voluntarily permit those days to return. For the rights to a kid like Grigorenko, with a realistic transfer agreement, the NHL should pay $10-12 million dollars in transfer rights. There may be some ways that the KHL suffers for lack of a transfer agreement, but when they see really good, talented kids not being drafted until the 6th or 7th round, where there is no investment in the player, it works to the KHL's advantage.

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07-07-2011, 10:20 PM
  #79
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Unfortunately, AFAIK there is nothing systematic going on. The MHL was a good first step, the MHL2 is a good second step, but we need more. And heck, I'd love the KHL spending money on this, more than on Italian teams...
No-pucking-body will SPEND on italian teams. Get over with that hype. They are supposed to infuse some money actually. It's a rich market unlike Slovakia. And that all has nothing to do with youth development. As I see it we have the FHR and the KHL as opposing powers in russian hockey now. Unfortunately the FHR plays the 'bad guys'. Their approaches and staff are old fashioned, opprotunistic, corrupt and let's just say ugly. What we need is a big bashing right through all levels of FHR. We desperately need a cleaner there. The KHL appears to do all the right things. Yes, they have issues, growing pains, bad decisions at times, but, hell, that's not bothering me much as long as they stay focused on developing a strong league along with MHL which appears to be even better organized, perhaps due to lesser political issues/influences. Step by step this will lead right down to youth and kid's hockey development. But you have to realize they started it all at the top, creating the KHL. It is still young and molding into some shape we can only predict. Give it some time. In 5-10 years we should have a system in place. What I fear most is that the FHR will start to interfere when they realize they are not the omnipotent tsars of russian hockey any more. In fact there was a precedent not long ago as FHR declined the offer of KHL to help the NT with KHL resources.

http://www.championat.com/hockey/news-858062.html

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07-09-2011, 12:47 AM
  #80
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07-11-2011, 12:20 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
No-pucking-body will SPEND on italian teams. Get over with that hype.
С деньгами проблем как раз нет. Как сказал в интервью La Gazzetta dello Sport президент Ико Мильоре (Ico Migliore), "речь идет о сумме, которая составляет около 10 миллионов евро за сезон, прямо из России".

http://allhockey.ru/news/100892/

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08-18-2011, 05:22 AM
  #82
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Might offend someone but which is exactly the talent that CHL has ruined? Kitsyn, who had 19 pts in 20 play-off games for Mississauga last year and was great in U20 WC? Is he now a shade of his former self, is Orlov in AHL??? What are the indications that these two will be ruined? What are the indications that, say, Yakupov, Khokhlachev, Burmistrov will be ruined???

Yakupov and Grigorenko will be future NHL syperstars, so will Kuznetsov and maybe Kucherov and it doesn't matter where they play, as long as their head is in the right place they'll succeede because they're THAT GOOD!

Most of the so-called ruined star players are 3rd-4th rounders that really went to CHL because nobody would give him place in RSL/KHL... And with such players it's always a gamble, few can prove themselves to belong to NHL calibre and others can't... Had they a bigger chance in Russia? Who knows... probably not.

I hate when people start to shout about ruining players too soon.... I heard this about Anisimov too, during his second AHL season when he was good but still wasn't called up. Some people already started the ''evil amerikosi'' talk... Look at him now! And is Filatov ruined? Still has a chance to succede (though, something happened to him but I'm not sure it's NHL fault as he had a great first AHL season and already scored some in NHL... but nothing came out of that in the next season). Tikhonov... yes, maybe so but he also already left when he was 20... The fact is... at the age of 17 you can't really say what will happen to the guy, he's likely to collapse under the pressure of the press, get ''star sickness'', maybe he's one of those who develops faster than others and his progress will stop at 17 anyway etc. and it can very well happen both in Russia and in CHL. And who knows what's harder, to go and play somewhere where people still don't know you or be a proclaimed star in Russia already at 14 when everybody is watching your KHL debut and already predicting you 10s of millions of dollars and gold with Team Russia in some future OG...


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08-18-2011, 05:38 AM
  #83
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Though I agree that NHL should be stopped of robbing the players... but I don't think that NHL would be willing to pay the money... Some suggested here that NHL clubs should pay 10 million for Grigorenko etc. but it's ridiculous and never will happen... A better alternative would be that the youth team could receive a certain percentage of player's salary, say if a player signs 3 million per season contract, his club gets 200 000 USD from it, if the player earns 9 million per season, the club gets 600 000 USD... If a player has a long carreer in NHL, the club will get these 10 millions eventually and the league/ player could agree on something like that... not on paying 10 millions or even some 3 millions already, on the spot after the player had left...

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08-18-2011, 11:42 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
Might offend someone but which is exactly the talent that CHL has ruined? Kitsyn, who had 19 pts in 20 play-off games for Mississauga last year and was great in U20 WC? Is he now a shade of his former self, is Orlov in AHL??? What are the indications that these two will be ruined? What are the indications that, say, Yakupov, Khokhlachev, Burmistrov will be ruined???

Yakupov and Grigorenko will be future NHL syperstars, so will Kuznetsov and maybe Kucherov and it doesn't matter where they play, as long as their head is in the right place they'll succeede because they're THAT GOOD!

Most of the so-called ruined star players are 3rd-4th rounders that really went to CHL because nobody would give him place in RSL/KHL... And with such players it's always a gamble, few can prove themselves to belong to NHL calibre and others can't... Had they a bigger chance in Russia? Who knows... probably not.

I hate when people start to shout about ruining players too soon.... I heard this about Anisimov too, during his second AHL season when he was good but still wasn't called up. Some people already started the ''evil amerikosi'' talk... Look at him now! And is Filatov ruined? Still has a chance to succede (though, something happened to him but I'm not sure it's NHL fault as he had a great first AHL season and already scored some in NHL... but nothing came out of that in the next season). Tikhonov... yes, maybe so but he also already left when he was 20... The fact is... at the age of 17 you can't really say what will happen to the guy, he's likely to collapse under the pressure of the press, get ''star sickness'', maybe he's one of those who develops faster than others and his progress will stop at 17 anyway etc. and it can very well happen both in Russia and in CHL. And who knows what's harder, to go and play somewhere where people still don't know you or be a proclaimed star in Russia already at 14 when everybody is watching your KHL debut and already predicting you 10s of millions of dollars and gold with Team Russia in some future OG...
No one is saying that the CHL or AHL will "ruin talent." Talent is innate, and cannot be ruined, unless one becomes disabled or something. Some of us are of the opinion that young kids are making a huge mistake by going to NA before they have matured physically and as hockey players. They have to adapt to life in a foreign country where Russians are sometimes resented for a number of reasons, not the least of which is competing for "Canadian" jobs, where they will have to learn a completely new style of hockey, and where they will be less developed as competitive hockey players than the kids they are playing with.

My last point is easily illustrated by the severe annihilation that the Russian team received from the Canadians in the Ivan Hlinka tournament. The score, 5-0, wasn't so bad, but the shots on goal totals, 44-6, is virtually unprecedented in the sport of hockey. It almost seems impossible that a hockey team could only produce 6 shots on goal during the course of an entire hockey game. None of the shots on goal came from the "superstar" Grigorenko. This Russian team clearly did not belong on the same ice as the Canadian team. What better evidence is there that 17-year old Russian players are not ready to go to the CHL, and that they would be better off taking Vladimir Tarasenko's (russianprospects.com) advice of waiting until they are developed hockey players before going overseas.

It is too early to guess how well Yakupov, Grigorenko and Khoklachev will do as NHL players, although Yakupov seems to stand above the crowd in any company. Burmistrov, Anisimov, Tikhonov and Filatov are not likely to be anything other than up/down (NHL/AHL) players in the NHL. They will be quickly replaced by the next NA player of equal skill who comes along. IMHO, they would be better off playing in the KHL, where their skills and strengths are more conducive to bigger rinks and a more "Russian" style of play.

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08-18-2011, 11:52 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
Though I agree that NHL should be stopped of robbing the players... but I don't think that NHL would be willing to pay the money... Some suggested here that NHL clubs should pay 10 million for Grigorenko etc. but it's ridiculous and never will happen... A better alternative would be that the youth team could receive a certain percentage of player's salary, say if a player signs 3 million per season contract, his club gets 200 000 USD from it, if the player earns 9 million per season, the club gets 600 000 USD... If a player has a long carreer in NHL, the club will get these 10 millions eventually and the league/ player could agree on something like that... not on paying 10 millions or even some 3 millions already, on the spot after the player had left...
There is no prospect of any kind of transfer agreement for the foreseeable future. Why should the NHL agree to anything when they get Russian talent for nothing now? The KHL doesn't want a transfer agreement, because they want Russian talent to stay home. The Russian consumers who buy the goods and services sold by the oligarch owners of KHL teams will pay for the riches that will go into NHL pockets for the likes of Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, etc.

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08-19-2011, 04:45 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Burmistrov, Anisimov, Tikhonov and Filatov are not likely to be anything other than up/down (NHL/AHL) players in the NHL. They will be quickly replaced by the next NA player of equal skill who comes along.
Anisimov had 44 points in 82 NHL season games last year, he's improving every year... next year he should crack 60 pts mark... I think he's safe and he won't be replaced by some AHLer that comes along )
Burmistrov managed to get into his NHL team already in the first year after the juniors... 74 games 20 points, he'll be fine

They are no Ovechkins but nobody thought they would be... But they will, in time, be above average in NHL.

Tikhonov went to NA already at the age of 20. Maybe he should've waited another year but his first NHL year certainly wasn't bad... what happened next... maybe there's his blame too. Filatov is, of course, a big disappointment but maybe his game translates more to KHL than to NHL style... his short spell with CSKA was very productive for him, maybe he shouldn't even be overseas, taking into account that he's not really a very big guy too...

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08-19-2011, 05:01 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
My last point is easily illustrated by the severe annihilation that the Russian team received from the Canadians in the Ivan Hlinka tournament. The score, 5-0, wasn't so bad, but the shots on goal totals, 44-6, is virtually unprecedented in the sport of hockey. It almost seems impossible that a hockey team could only produce 6 shots on goal during the course of an entire hockey game. None of the shots on goal came from the "superstar" Grigorenko. This Russian team clearly did not belong on the same ice as the Canadian team. What better evidence is there that 17-year old Russian players are not ready to go to the CHL, and that they would be better off taking Vladimir Tarasenko's (russianprospects.com) advice of waiting until they are developed hockey players before going overseas.
Maybe it's the indication of that. Maybe it's the indication of the fact that while Canadians were preparing seriously for the tournament, Russians just arrived to play some games... of course, it doesn't explain 44-6 but we also should take into account the fact that RUSSIA IS NOT PRODUCING AS MUCH TALENT AS IT USED TO. We see that Russia didn't win U20 for some time, before this year's victory. And we also saw the in U18 championships Russia was only nr.3... It's not like Russia is the sole top power in youth hockey nowadays- there's not only Canada, but also Sweden and USA that are constantly better or equal with Russian teams.

Now, that also doesn't explain 44-6 as Russian team can't be THAT bad but still... I don't think that one tournament should be seen as some indication of what's better and worse for Russian hockey.

I'm not against Russians staying in MHL/KHL until they are ready to play in NHL, I would only be for it... But I don't think that playing in CHL harms a player's development. Of course, you can always find examples of that with some players but I think there are examples that show players who stayed in Russia and who could've possibly develop better in CHL...

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08-19-2011, 07:09 AM
  #88
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all in all youth development and player development should not be looked at statistically, rather individually. But for our sake I want them all to stay home

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08-19-2011, 07:11 AM
  #89
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in spite of these words coming from Fetisov still a good read - i agree with a lot of it - just don't think Slava is saying these things for the good of our hockey - but rather means of a power-struggle.

http://www.allhockey.ru/news/103335/

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08-19-2011, 07:52 AM
  #90
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all in all youth development and player development should not be looked at statistically, rather individually. But for our sake I want them all to stay home
Absolutely wrong. For any programme or system to understand itself, it's flaws and the trends within it, statistical data is an absolute must. Assessing individuals doesn't work from this stance. If you look at all the Russian players to go the CHL and then assess success and the results show you that for example 75% of them fail whilst 25% succeed within the parameters set ; then one can only conclude that statistically going to the CHL is bad. Obviously these numbers are just a random example. But if 75% of your produce is ruined by leaving early, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the best course of action is to prevent them from leaving? There will always be outliers ; some kids will prosper or fail in whatever environment that develop within and some kids will prosper much more in the CHL than they would have in the KHL. But the collective (and this is what a development system SHOULD care about), if the data says the CHL harms its products, then something needs to be done.

Assessing them as individuals is all well and good from an idealistic point of view. If however you want to take the logical approach and improve the system, you cater to the needs of the collective, not the individual.

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08-19-2011, 04:12 PM
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I believe it's both, statistical and individual.

Remember, statistics can be individual too. If we're trying to understand whether or not CHL is good or bad, we need to look at the correct statistics and how they apply to certain individuals.

It's doesn't do much good saying that 400 players went to OHL and only 40 of them are still around. What we need to know is how many hundred's stayed in Russia and are still around. And what, if anything do these 40 and 360 have in common. Maybe the difference is not so bad. Or maybe its atrocious.

The only thing KHL can do is stick around, get better every year and wait out until FHR old grumps loose power. And it's coming, because they can't be around forever. The one thing, for sure, that is slowing down Russian hockey right now are the bureaucracies that are caused by people who are extremely incompetent for their positions. What can anyone accomplish when corruption is ramped, and anyone can be side stepped for personal interest. It's the opposite of productive- just take a look at last year's U18 team. Sure, these people have some hockey history from the 70's, but realistically they are out of their league in today's hockey world.

It's clear, on the other hand of the scale you have people like Efimov and Fetisov who are trying to tip the balance towards a more professional era.


Whenever I see a jr team loose, I think it's the FHR and coaches that let us down, not the players.

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08-20-2011, 10:23 AM
  #92
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It's doesn't do much good saying that 400 players went to OHL and only 40 of them are still around. What we need to know is how many hundred's stayed in Russia and are still around. And what, if anything do these 40 and 360 have in common. Maybe the difference is not so bad. Or maybe its atrocious.
The thing people often fail to realize is that 1/10 of players aged, say 15, still around at 20-21 is probably how it is in any hockey country. People start to go to universities, think about their careers... not all of them can play in NHL and KHL and probably some don't even want to spend their career in VHL club's 3rd line for 1000 bucks per month....

Talent is also a subjective thing. What's a talented player for Latvia is different from what's a talented player for Russia... or for Canada... or for NHL. A guy who is on of the top scorers of Latvian U16 championship is a talented guy here (just an example) but he'll never get drafted in the NHL, he'll maybe make 2nd line of an MHL club one day and will go to play in Finnish 3rd league afterwards... or leave hockey.

Russian people just often don't realize that Canada is constantly producing much better (and much more) talent... and USA and recently Sweden some years too. It's tough to compete out there, there are a lot of players with this ''talent''. And many people don't understand that... and I guess the guys in FHR too, they still live in Soviet times when there was CCCP- KAHADA and that's all... nowadays, if we look at youth championship results, there are a bit more players... and Canada also loses a lot of talent every day, so does any other country...

Of course there's a lot of problems with FHR.... 44-6 shots in Hlinka tournement I think is entirely their fault for bad preparation for the tournament. All I want to say is... nobody will complain about players leaving to CHL when Russia constantly wins U18 and U20 or loses in the final in an equal game... But when there are games like in Hlinka tournament or previous years disasters against Canada or even Switzerland, people try to find fault with other factors simply not wanting to admit... that Russia, due to different reasons, simply cannot produce talents of the same level as Canada at the moment...

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08-20-2011, 12:05 PM
  #93
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all in all youth development and player development should not be looked at statistically, rather individually. But for our sake I want them all to stay home
You are right in saying that statistics don't necessarily tell the story, and for Russian hockey, shots on goal is often a very misleading statistic, since the Russian style emphasizes quality of shots instead of volume of shots. However, in this case, particularly in the absence of streaming video to watch this game, the shots on goal tell the story of what the game was like. 44 Canadian shots on goal is a lot, but not unprecedented. What is unprecedented, as far as I know, are the 6 Russian shots on goal. This tells us that the Canadians applied intense pressure throughout the entire game, and that the Russian team not only could not break the pressure, but were completely locked out of the Canadian zone. They couldn't get near the Canadian goal for the entire game.

Coaching no doubt had a lot to do with this effort, but I believe that it also points out that Russian 17-year olds are still neophytes to the game. They lack experience in coping with pressure, surviving the storm, and fighting hard to stage a comeback. They haven't faced that type of pressure before. That is why they should stay home, mature, get experience and hone their skills until they are ready to apply as much pressure as they receive.

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08-20-2011, 12:16 PM
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Maybe it's the indication of that. Maybe it's the indication of the fact that while Canadians were preparing seriously for the tournament, Russians just arrived to play some games... of course, it doesn't explain 44-6 but we also should take into account the fact that RUSSIA IS NOT PRODUCING AS MUCH TALENT AS IT USED TO. We see that Russia didn't win U20 for some time, before this year's victory. And we also saw the in U18 championships Russia was only nr.3... It's not like Russia is the sole top power in youth hockey nowadays- there's not only Canada, but also Sweden and USA that are constantly better or equal with Russian teams.

Now, that also doesn't explain 44-6 as Russian team can't be THAT bad but still... I don't think that one tournament should be seen as some indication of what's better and worse for Russian hockey.

I'm not against Russians staying in MHL/KHL until they are ready to play in NHL, I would only be for it... But I don't think that playing in CHL harms a player's development. Of course, you can always find examples of that with some players but I think there are examples that show players who stayed in Russia and who could've possibly develop better in CHL...
I believe that Russian hockey is on the rise, and will eventually approach and perhaps surpass the great Soviet hockey of the 1970's and 80's. The complete loss of financial support forced a collapse of Russian hockey in the 1990's and early 2000's, but indications are now that Russian hockey is again challenging for championships. But there is still a problem with development opportunities for younger players. Until solutions are reached, Russian players are better off staying at home, playing the style that they are accustomed to, and maturing sufficiently before going overeas. In the 1990's and early 2000's, Russian hockey players had no choice if they wanted to convert their hockey skills into financial security - they had to go to NA. Now there is an acceptable alternative.

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08-20-2011, 01:44 PM
  #95
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u16 lost to Czech in a meaningless game (already came first in the group)
u17 beat the finns
u20 beat the Czech

not so bad.

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08-20-2011, 05:17 PM
  #96
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u16 lost to Czech in a meaningless game (already came first in the group)
Well... they still had to beat Latvia to be 1st in the group, Czech game was meaningless anyway as they are from the other group....
But it really looks fine for Russia in the future and I know it because it also looks whole lot better for Latvia in future... the same situatiaon as Yakushev mentioned, after the financial collapse there were problems with everything but now the guys who started practicing in booming 2000s are growing up and things are improving hockey-wise too. ))
Well 2:9 for us might not be an indication of that but if our goalie would be at the necessary level in this game, you'd have a tough time against us too )

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08-20-2011, 07:08 PM
  #97
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Another thing to realize is that Junior hockey in general is EXTREMELY unpredictable, even at U-20 level. A team that can dominate a game 9-1 can go on to loose another game 3-2 to the same team. You see it a lot if you follow any junior league.

So when a bunch of 17 year olds loose 5-0, in adult hockey that would look more like 3-0. What's more important is the type of game they displayed throughout the tournament, which wasn't bad.

Anyway, nothing new- Russian hockey is never as bad as they say it is, and it's not as amazing as some think. Just overreactions.

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08-20-2011, 09:37 PM
  #98
Yakushev72
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Another thing to realize is that Junior hockey in general is EXTREMELY unpredictable, even at U-20 level. A team that can dominate a game 9-1 can go on to loose another game 3-2 to the same team. You see it a lot if you follow any junior league.

So when a bunch of 17 year olds loose 5-0, in adult hockey that would look more like 3-0. What's more important is the type of game they displayed throughout the tournament, which wasn't bad.

Anyway, nothing new- Russian hockey is never as bad as they say it is, and it's not as amazing as some think. Just overreactions.
Of course you and CSKA78 are correct, the overall tournament result was satisfactory. I was a little bit disappointed that in the pressure game against Canada that could have taken them to the Gold Medal game, the team fell apart and were trounced. But the first Finland game was also a "must win" game, and the team played very well. So this group could be better in a couple of years.

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09-07-2011, 02:51 AM
  #99
fredrikstad
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
HC LEV Poprad - they have no money from Russia as I know.
Draft KHL - what is original idea of draft NHL? IMO to focus ONLY on canada (60s), later US and with globalisation to Europe.

KHL does the first step - to focus for Russia - like NHL did in 60s. IMO it is ok, why should NHL/ KHL draft intervene into other countries? why should NHL/ KHL draft ruin developing system in Sweden, Slovakia or so? I like what KHL does. They dont sign drafted Finn to play in MHL at 17 years. They just wait until he is fully developed (like Riga signed Lucenius). I hate about NHL draft that they force europeans to play in CHL, AHL instead of developing at home. So, europeans junior leagues fall
I completely agreed with you on this one.
NHL teams (and chl) should not be allowed to draft europeans. It is a free world,and europeans should have the oportunity to choose wich team they want to play for,and sign to.
It`s not fair that players like Omark and Linus Klasen have to work on "slavery"contracts in AHL,making 65k a year. Players like them,can easily make 500k in sweeden,so AHL it`s not atractive at all for skilled players like them.

So pleace. Free the europians from the draft.

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09-07-2011, 02:55 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
I agree with your logic, only is CHL worse than MHL, where he will play the most, no, quite on contrary - better. Now, is he gonna play in the KHL - probably yes, some, but not much, 4-5 15 second shifts where the coach would bench him for every mistake - is that good for development - again - no.
In your opinion,why doe`s NA teams bring in europians for?

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