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Old
08-18-2011, 11:34 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
We're clearly not talking about the same thing.

You're blaming the coach for an entire team's failure.
No, I'm putting the public meltdown that happened with the media following that season in the proper context. Citing Roenick (a serial whiner no matter the situation) is not the same thing as paying attention to the host of players that publicly commented on the situation AFTER the season. I'm also noting that the media reported pretty much nothing on everything that was going on, and only after the fact did all the tension and all the backroom discussions come to the surface. The situation was toxic the entire season and management did nothing about it, and that all boiled over in the playoffs.

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I'm blaming the entire team (coach included) for the team's failure.

And I remember exactly what happened in that series (the article I posted even restates it). You still don't throw your current team mate under the bus.
1) Barber threw his goalie under the bus in that playoff series.

2) The team as a collective threw the goalie under the bus in that playoff series.

It was no secret that Cechmanek was a weird dude and no one liked him... something he's gone on to prove not just here but in Europe, too.

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And how many times has Barber thrown his hat in the ring for a coaching job? Just curious. You can't be "in the running" without your own admission.
Ah... that's not true at all. A team can be interested in hiring a guy and get a "No thanks, not interested." Barber has been a BS organizational hockey operations guy ever since... cuz he was an abject failure as a coach.

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08-18-2011, 11:50 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, I'm putting the public meltdown that happened with the media following that season in the proper context. Citing Roenick (a serial whiner no matter the situation) is not the same thing as paying attention to the host of players that publicly commented on the situation AFTER the season. I'm also noting that the media reported pretty much nothing on everything that was going on, and only after the fact did all the tension and all the backroom discussions come to the surface. The situation was toxic the entire season and management did nothing about it, and that all boiled over in the playoffs.
I'll just stop this argument at this. We clearly see the situation differently and I respect your opinion. I just disagree with the credence you give to the players' reports of Barber's incompetence. Barber rubbed the players the wrong way and never won the locker room over. In my opinion, that's a problem that exists and needs to be addressed on both sides.

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1) Barber threw his goalie under the bus in that playoff series.

2) The team as a collective threw the goalie under the bus in that playoff series.

It was no secret that Cechmanek was a weird dude and no one liked him... something he's gone on to prove not just here but in Europe, too.
That's true, but the players were also publicly outspoken even before the series was over. That's not the sign of a team looking for a way to win. It also illustrates the incompatibility of Barber and the team he coached.

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Ah... that's not true at all. A team can be interested in hiring a guy and get a "No thanks, not interested." Barber has been a BS organizational hockey operations guy ever since... cuz he was an abject failure as a coach.
"Ah... that's not true at all.":

Quote:
He also coached the Flyers' AHL affiliate, the Philadelphia Phantoms, to their first Calder Cup victory in 1998. He was the Director of Player Personnel for the Tampa Bay Lightning, a position he held from August 2002 to June 2008. Barber's name was added to the Stanley Cup for a third time in 2004 with Tampa Bay. On October 13, 2008, he returned to the Flyers organization when he was named a scouting consultant.
An abject failure with a Jack Adams and a Calder Cup. What a failure!

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08-18-2011, 11:51 AM
  #78
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I don't want to get roped into this debate but IMO there really should be no debating that Barber was not a good coach. Yeah the team underachieved but they didn't buy into Barber for a reason and a lot of it did come out after the playoffs. They were pretty valid criticisms from what I can recall. Barber was just a poor X's and O's coach..he was one dimensional and sure both players and coach share a responsibility to succeed on the battlefield but it makes it pretty hard when your primary tactician is a dolt. Hence the General's revolt (team leaders like Primaeu) and that of the foot soldiers.

As far as Chechmanek...no doubt guy was a head case but he didn't always get the best support and it eventually led to an ugly meltdown on the ice...

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08-18-2011, 11:56 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
"Ah... that's not true at all.":

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He also coached the Flyers' AHL affiliate, the Philadelphia Phantoms, to their first Calder Cup victory in 1998. He was the Director of Player Personnel for the Tampa Bay Lightning, a position he held from August 2002 to June 2008. Barber's name was added to the Stanley Cup for a third time in 2004 with Tampa Bay. On October 13, 2008, he returned to the Flyers organization when he was named a scouting consultant.
An abject failure with a Jack Adams and a Calder Cup. What a failure!
John Steven won a Calder Cup... I think he sucked as a coach. Bruce Boudreau has won the Jack Adams and a Calder Cup and I think he's a terrible coach as well.

...and, yeah, Barber has been in BS roles since getting canned. Those hockey operations jobs are largely old boy network crap.

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08-18-2011, 12:21 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...and, yeah, Barber has been in BS roles since getting canned. Those hockey operations jobs are largely old boy network crap.
And HFBoards posters are largely idiots with too much time on their hands...right?

I have a feeling you never even looked at the roster Barber won the Calder Cup with..especially if you're comparing it to what Stevens and Boudreau did. Boudreau and Stevens' rosters were littered with NHL regulars and soon-to-be great NHLers...Barber's roster was significantly worse, with the only notable player being Andy Delmore.


Last edited by Bort Sampson: 08-18-2011 at 12:28 PM. Reason: Added "..."
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08-18-2011, 12:27 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
And HFBoards posters are largely idiots with too much time on their hands, right?

I have a feeling you never even looked at the roster Barber won the Calder Cup with, especially if you're comparing it to what Stevens and Boudreau did.
Oh, so now it isn't just winning a Calder Cup/Jack Adams...?

Barber's team wasn't some no talent group (which is I assume what you're implying). It was a team with some VERY good AHL players. Peter White, in particular.

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08-18-2011, 12:36 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Oh, so now it isn't just winning a Calder Cup/Jack Adams...?

Barber's team wasn't some no talent group (which is I assume what you're implying). It was a team with some VERY good AHL players. Peter White, in particular.
What "it" are you even talking about?

And I wasn't implying that at all (I loved that Phantoms team, I was at the first game ever and went to a ton of games that season), but nice to see your straw man. And Neil Little was a hell of an AHL goaltender, too. Convenient to see you leave him out, as well as Maneluk, who were just as instrumental in the Calder Cup win.

Barber's team was full of AHL regulars and a few very good AHLers. He led that team to a championship. Boudreau and Stevens' rosters were littered with good, young players about to make the jump to success in the NHL. They rode those teams to championships.

You want to discredit the guy because the team didn't like him and they didn't win with him. That's fine. I just think that the evidence of the team's poor construction was apparent for multiple years. Barber implemented a defensive system. That didn't play well to injury-plagued veterans and offensive-oriented players. The team fell apart down the stretch, despite playing the same system. You point the finger at Barber, but the inability of a number of players to perform during that playoff stint could only be denied by someone blind to reason. Two of the most glaring disappointments were the veterans Leclair and Roenick, who no doubt were fatigued from their Olympic games (6 extra games), as well.

...


Last edited by Bort Sampson: 08-18-2011 at 12:48 PM.
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08-18-2011, 12:42 PM
  #83
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Meltzer's Ranking

Meltzer had a good piece about previous Flyer's coaches and as you can see he has him ranked pretty much where he should be IMO..

Quote:
Here's how I would rank the Flyers' coaches all-time, from best to the worst.

1. Shero
2. Keenan
3. Quinn
4. Murray
5. Hitchcock
6. Neilson
7. Laviolette
8. Allen
9. Dineen
10. Barber
11. Stevens
12. Holmgren
13. Ramsay
14. Stasiuk
15. Simpson
16. McCammon
17. Cashman

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=37532

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08-18-2011, 12:45 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
What "it" are you even talking about?

And I wasn't implying that at all (I loved that Phantoms team, I was at the first game ever and went to a ton of games that season), but nice to see your straw man.

Barber's team was full of AHL regulars and a few very good AHLers. Boudreau and Stevens' rosters were littered with good, young players about to make the jump to success in the NHL.
But you don't necessarily need to be a "good, young player about to make the jump" to be a very effective AHL player. So, basically you're constructing a straw man in comparison. Peter White was a FANTASTIC AHL player, and a crap NHL player. Alexandre Giroux has torn the AHL apart, but never been able to crack a NHL lineup.

More importantly, Barber's success at the AHL level is nice and all... and it's the reason he got a shot at the NHL level. He proved a failure as a NHL coach, as many "good" AHL coaches have proven before and since his short tenure in the NHL.

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You want to discredit the guy because the team didn't like him, that's fine. That team didn't win anything without him, either, and other coaches have been fired since. Still no success.
I have nothing against Bill Barber, I've never met him and by all accounts he's a nice guy. He was a crappy coach in the NHL, lost his job because of it, and hasn't been behind a bench since. Whether or not the coaches that followed Barber were any good is completely irrelevant to whether he was any good. Hitchcock is a very good coach, Stevens is not... and I've liked and disliked parts of Lavi's tenure.

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08-18-2011, 01:05 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Whether or not the coaches that followed Barber were any good is completely irrelevant to whether he was any good. Hitchcock is a very good coach, Stevens is not... and I've liked and disliked parts of Lavi's tenure.
I wouldn't say completely irrelevent. That's a bit much. You need to establish a baseline to compare and Meltzer's ranking of Flyers coaches of all time has Barber 3 notches above his worst 5 that he goes into detail about. Actually..I'm not even sure that Stevens should be below Barber considering Stevens coached a team that the following year after that disaster transition year made one of the more pronounced improvements in NHL history. He has to get some credit for that as much as I disliked his accomodating vanilla ways that eventually got him canned. Holmgren..yeah he was pretty bad but didn't have that much to work with..team was on the decline due to aging veterans and the league becoming faster. At least Holmgren in his first year accomplished a pretty nice run to the Wales Conference Finals. Ousting Pitt in the earlier series was awesome. The next couple of years of Holmgren's tenure of course started the Flyers 5 year playoff drought which I had the pleasure of enduring. So maybe in some respects Holmgren should be above Barber as well in the ranking....

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08-18-2011, 01:08 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
But you don't necessarily need to be a "good, young player about to make the jump" to be a very effective AHL player. So, basically you're constructing a straw man in comparison. Peter White was a FANTASTIC AHL player, and a crap NHL player. Alexandre Giroux has torn the AHL apart, but never been able to crack a NHL lineup.
lol, I never said that. Never even came close to saying that. Nice try.

And are you seriously debating that Boudreau and Stevens' teams were significantly better than Barber's?

I just want to know whether to stop the debate right here and just enjoy my day. You're an extremely intelligent guy and make the boards were reading sometimes, but to say Barber's feat is comparable to those of Boudreau and Stevens because of quality of players would be the height of idiocy.

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More importantly, Barber's success at the AHL level is nice and all... and it's the reason he got a shot at the NHL level. He proved a failure as a NHL coach, as many "good" AHL coaches have proven before and since his short tenure in the NHL.
Your argument was that Barber was an "abject failure of a coach". You concede that argument in this response by calling Barber a "good" AHL coach.

My argument is that his coaching style was incompatible with the team that got him fired. The idea that he didn't practice special teams (already discredited), or that he was a poor X and O coach is purely hearsay. It's basis is on the complaints trumped up by a team lashing out and looking to deflect blame.

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I have nothing against Bill Barber, I've never met him and by all accounts he's a nice guy. He was a crappy coach in the NHL, lost his job because of it, and hasn't been behind a bench since. Whether or not the coaches that followed Barber were any good is completely irrelevant to whether he was any good. Hitchcock is a very good coach, Stevens is not... and I've liked and disliked parts of Lavi's tenure.
It's only completely irrelevant to your basis of argument. My argument was that the team in front of him failed as well(which is why I said what Boucher did was "immature": the whole team failed, not just the coach/goaltender). Hence, the lack of success of the team under Barber's successor (Hitchcock), which occurred in the very next season, is relevant.

It's almost common knowledge that teams built around veterans fall apart down the stretch. It's the sad nature of the game. Barber played a defensive system focused on hustle. You can't hustle much when you're nursing injuries and old. That was the Flyers' problem. As a coach, you have to manipulate your system to account for lack of efficacy. That was Barber's problem. He lost the team, and the bleeding was never stopped until the team hemorrhaged against a very good Senators team. At that point, it was pretty clear that the problem wasn't just the players, or just the coaching staff, but rather the relationship between the two.


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08-18-2011, 01:12 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I have nothing against Bill Barber, I've never met him and by all accounts he's a nice guy. He was a crappy coach in the NHL, lost his job because of it, and hasn't been behind a bench since. Whether or not the coaches that followed Barber were any good is completely irrelevant to whether he was any good. Hitchcock is a very good coach, Stevens is not... and I've liked and disliked parts of Lavi's tenure.
He also, like Barber, had a lot of problems with players that eventually had a hand in his dismissal.

Also, looking at the coach that immediately precedes and succeeds the coach in question is useful if the team's core remains the same.

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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
I wouldn't say completely irrelevent. That's a bit much. You need to establish a baseline to compare and Meltzer's ranking of Flyers coaches of all time has Barber 3 notches above his worst 5 that he goes into detail about. Actually..I'm not even sure that Stevens should be below Barber considering Stevens coached a team that the following year after that disaster transition year made one of the more pronounced improvements in NHL history. He has to get some credit for that as much as I disliked his accomodating vanilla ways that eventually got him canned. Holmgren..yeah he was pretty bad but didn't have that much to work with..team was on the decline due to aging veterans and the league becoming faster. At least Holmgren in his first year accomplished a pretty nice run to the Wales Conference Finals. Ousting Pitt in the earlier series was awesome. The next couple of years started the Flyers 5 year playoff drought which I had the pleasure of enduring. So maybe in some respects Holmgren should be above Barber as well in the ranking....
I'm not sure how much that was Stevens and how much it was the talent he had on the team. Holmgren had more to do with that being as good as it was than Stevens did IMO.... I'm also reluctant to give Stevens any credit for anything though haha.

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08-18-2011, 01:14 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
.

It's almost common knowledge that teams built around veterans fall apart down the stretch. It's the sad nature of the game. Barber played a defensive system focused on hustle. You can't hustle much when you're nursing injuries and old. That was the Flyers' problem. As a coach, you have to manipulate your system to account for lack of effort. That was Barber's problem.
Right..hence him and Holmgren could be said to be tied with Holmgren being maybe slightly better than Barber still IMO. So again he's in a pack just above Meltzer's 5 worst coaches.

In short dude..Barber was not a good coach...it's not hearsay. If anything he was slightly below mediocre and mediocrity is bad IMO b/c it's just status quo.

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08-18-2011, 01:20 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Right..hence him and Holmgren could be said to be tied with Holmgren being maybe slightly better than Barber still IMO. So again he's in a pack just above Meltzer's 5 worst coaches.

In short dude..Barber was not a good coach...it's not hearsay. If anything he was slightly below mediocre and mediocrity is bad IMO b/c it's just status quo.
Forgive me if I choose to ignore an article using an arbitrary ratings system to judge coaches.

And I know what mediocrity is. I've been a Flyers fan my whole life.

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08-18-2011, 01:21 PM
  #90
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Leights deserves at least 10-15 starts with the big club.

We owe him that much after signing him to the extension. He was signed to be the starter and never got a chance.

Even with Bryz and Bob (I wouldn't mind throwing Bob on waivers), Leighton deserves his fair shake this year.

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08-18-2011, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
Forgive me if I choose to ignore an article using an arbitrary ratings system to judge coaches.

And I know what mediocrity is. I've been a Flyers fan my whole life.
You can ignore it..your prerogative. I don't think it's that far off though and Meltzer is pretty reasonable in his analysis. Don't have to agree with it but it should be considered. It does have relevency. To completely discount it is pretty short-sighted but it's your call....

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08-18-2011, 01:23 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Mr Oysterhead View Post
Leights deserves at least 10-15 starts with the big club.

We owe him that much after signing him to the extension. He was signed to be the starter and never got a chance.

Even with Bryz and Bob (I wouldn't mind throwing Bob on waivers), Leighton deserves his fair shake this year.
He should get his fair shake in camp. You don't just put someone on waivers to be claimed by another team.

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08-18-2011, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
Forgive me if I choose to ignore an article using an arbitrary ratings system to judge coaches.

And I know what mediocrity is. I've been a Flyers fan my whole life.
I wouldn't characterize the Flyers team throughout it's shorter history (not an original 6) as mediocre at all. They've been one of the more successful teams in league history. It's just that they can't secure a freaken cup which is frustrating. If they were mediocre they would not have had so many playoff appearances and championships separate from the two cups in the technocolor age...

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08-18-2011, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
You can ignore it..your prerogative. I don't think it's that far off though and Meltzer is pretty reasonable in his analysis. Don't have to agree with it but it should be considered. It does have relevency. To completely discount it is pretty short-sighted but it's your call....
Never discounted it.

I just choose to ignore it.

It's a slow time for Flyers coverage. The list is used to generate some traffic. It is what it is, apparently.

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08-18-2011, 01:31 PM
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Never discounted it.

I just choose to ignore it.

It's a slow time for Flyers coverage. The list is used to generate some traffic. It is what it is, apparently.
Ok ..so among all those coaches where do you arbitrarily rank Barber and why? Maybe I'll consider it or maybe I'll ignore it....

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08-18-2011, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
I wouldn't characterize the Flyers team throughout it's shorter history (not an original 6) as mediocre at all. They've been one of the more successful teams in league history. it's just that they can't secure a freaken cup which is frustrating. If they were mediocre they would not have had so many playoff appearances and championships apart from the two cups in the technocolor age...
Of course they weren't, but I said, "my life", not the life of the team.

I was born after the 87 Cup run. I had never seen the Flyers win a Cup Finals game until 2010.

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08-18-2011, 01:34 PM
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Ok ..so among all those coaches where do you arbitrarily rank Barber and why? Maybe I'll consider it or maybe I'll ignore it....
I haven't lived long enough to make a valid list, sorry dude.

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08-18-2011, 01:43 PM
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I haven't lived long enough to make a valid list, sorry dude.
Fair enough but then maybe you should consider the perspectives of those that have. Need to be a bit more open minded rather than just discount their points altogether which oftentimes can be insightful. Bill fits the Bill in that regard IMO...

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08-18-2011, 02:05 PM
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I wouldn't say completely irrelevent. That's a bit much. You need to establish a baseline to compare and Meltzer's ranking of Flyers coaches of all time has Barber 3 notches above his worst 5 that he goes into detail about. Actually..I'm not even sure that Stevens should be below Barber considering Stevens coached a team that the following year after that disaster transition year made one of the more pronounced improvements in NHL history. He has to get some credit for that as much as I disliked his accomodating vanilla ways that eventually got him canned. Holmgren..yeah he was pretty bad but didn't have that much to work with..team was on the decline due to aging veterans and the league becoming faster. At least Holmgren in his first year accomplished a pretty nice run to the Wales Conference Finals. Ousting Pitt in the earlier series was awesome. The next couple of years of Holmgren's tenure of course started the Flyers 5 year playoff drought which I had the pleasure of enduring. So maybe in some respects Holmgren should be above Barber as well in the ranking....
If I'm ranking how good my turds smelled over the last week, does the turds position in the ranking change anything about the fact that it is, still, a turd?

Bill Barber is not a better (or worse) coach based on the job others did. Moreover, if were looking at Hitch as opposed to Barber... The team improved under Hitch. Noticeably.

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08-18-2011, 02:06 PM
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Of course they weren't, but I said, "my life", not the life of the team.

I was born after the 87 Cup run. I had never seen the Flyers win a Cup Finals game until 2010.
Wait, so you were, what, 10 when Barber won the Calder Cup and think you have a sparkling memory of that team?

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