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Old
08-20-2011, 11:42 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I would just like to add that LafleursGuy pretty much sums up how I feel about the team and teams management. We've been pretty mediocre for years, but the one area we may disagree is the direction of this teams future. I think this team is building towards great things. We have one of the brightest futures in the league, we use to be lacking in the top end talent area, but even those days are passing. With Guys like PK/Price, we have solidified the 2 most important positions, then throw in guys like Pleks, Pac, Eller, Desharnais, Gorges, Yemelin, Weber, AK. We have plenty of pieces going forward, most of them affordable.

Where we agree, is that the players that excite us and are likely to lead the way, won't be Gomez, Gionta ect. No offense to those 2 guys, but we'd be better off had we held onto McDonagh, Grabs, SK, Lats ect. We'd still be a playoff threat every year while positioning ourselves greatly towards the future. Gainey wasn't terrible, but the Gomez deal alone kinda cancels out all the good he has done. It was one of the dumbest moves since the lockout.
Not really. The Gomez deal was made by a team who knew they had a center weakness to fill and didnt want to give up the bank in assets to address that need. Gomez' salary isn't an issue for the habs so what ist he big deal really?

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Old
08-20-2011, 12:02 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Not really. The Gomez deal was made by a team who knew they had a center weakness to fill and didnt want to give up the bank in assets to address that need. Gomez' salary isn't an issue for the habs so what ist he big deal really?
Gomez salary is always a concern, whether we signed someone last year or this year makes no difference. The argument that we would of needed to break the bank for a center is absurd, we had one every bit as capable for half the price in Koivu, who would of afforded us flexibility down the line since it would of been a 1-2 year deal. Gomez has been a complete dud and hardly offers an upgrade at more than twice the salary, whether those savings went towards wiz, or made a play at Brad Richards, or whom ever was available last year is irrelevant. He is terribad for his salary. A blueline with McDonagh would be fantastic moving forward.

Grabovski is an upgrade to Scott Gomez. Admittedly we didn't know that at the time, but it's managements job to evaluate these things, those 2 decisions were clear misses.

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08-20-2011, 12:12 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Gomez salary is always a concern, whether we signed someone last year or this year makes no difference. The argument that we would of needed to break the bank for a center is absurd, we had one every bit as capable for half the price in Koivu, who would of afforded us flexibility down the line since it would of been a 1-2 year deal. Gomez has been a complete dud and hardly offers an upgrade at more than twice the salary, whether those savings went towards wiz, or made a play at Brad Richards, or whom ever was available last year is irrelevant. He is terribad for his salary. A blueline with McDonagh would be fantastic moving forward.

Grabovski is an upgrade to Scott Gomez. Admittedly we didn't know that at the time, but it's managements job to evaluate these things, those 2 decisions were clear misses.
Doom and gloom. The habs needed stability at center, and they went out and got it. I'm not that concerned about McD, the habs have lots of d-men in the system.

Koivu was not, and is not better than Gomez by the way, and I'd rather have 3 more seasons at 7.3 on Gomez than 5? or 6? at 5.5 with Wizniewski, and Richards wasn't going to come to Montreal unless they were giving him 8+ per year long term, and then in a couple years he would have been just as bad as Gomez.

He isn't worht his salary, but with the youth the habs have n the line up his salary is really a non factor. Now when he gets sub 40 points on a season it's an issue, but all this talk about who the habs could have been is just pure unadulterated malarkie.

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08-20-2011, 12:43 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Doom and gloom. The habs needed stability at center, and they went out and got it. I'm not that concerned about McD, the habs have lots of d-men in the system.

Koivu was not, and is not better than Gomez by the way, and I'd rather have 3 more seasons at 7.3 on Gomez than 5? or 6? at 5.5 with Wizniewski, and Richards wasn't going to come to Montreal unless they were giving him 8+ per year long term, and then in a couple years he would have been just as bad as Gomez.

He isn't worht his salary, but with the youth the habs have n the line up his salary is really a non factor. Now when he gets sub 40 points on a season it's an issue, but all this talk about who the habs could have been is just pure unadulterated malarkie.
This whole post is malarkie, not one point is correct. We'll agree to disagree.

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08-20-2011, 01:07 PM
  #105
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This whole post is malarkie, not one point is correct. We'll agree to disagree.
So it wasn't correct that the Habs had a serious lack of depth in terms of top 6 centers and had to fix that problem?

Good to know.

Also LoL at preferring Koivu over Gomez. Guess I'm the only one who remember him not being able to play at a consistently high level over an 82 game season hey?

If Gomez' contract was such a huge deal, why do the habs have 5 million in cap space now? And why haven't they lost anyone who they really needed to keep because they couldn't afford them?

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08-20-2011, 03:20 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Not really. The Gomez deal was made by a team who knew they had a center weakness to fill and didnt want to give up the bank in assets to address that need. Gomez' salary isn't an issue for the habs so what ist he big deal really?
We had more than a center problem. Our core was collapsing, nobody would lead our coming group of prospects.

Gomez gave us Gionta. Gionta gave us Cam and Gill. With these 4, we had a reliable core who could show our youngsters what it is to be a professional who behaves like a pro, not like a diva.

And the point is, it worked so far. I don't see any of our current prospects not acting professional, not giving it all they got.

Gomez might be a load, but he's a stepping stone that allowed us to build a brighter future. He's costly, but he's not crippling the way Kovalchuk is to the Devils.

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08-20-2011, 03:48 PM
  #107
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Leaf fan here but this article is pretty much true. I think the Habs will finish 5th maybe even 4th and take Tampa's spot.

Habs were in the race for the division till the injuries finally took the toll. There is no way the Habs finish 8th because Markov is back, Pacioretty will be better, Subban will be better, Gorges is back, SCOTT GOMEZ can't be any worse than last season, Carey Price will be as good or better and then you add in the fact that you get Erik Cole, it's looking like a top 4 team in the East.

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Old
08-20-2011, 04:32 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Possibly, but maybe not. We're often reading that the future of the X or Y team is great, but it just cant be great for everyone. Some of them are going to lose anyway.
And honestly, Gomez and Spacek are the only guys that are indeed not assets for the team.

Well, its not necessarily about a slow rebuild from scratch, but mainly about being patient while your team is build.
As we saw with Burke and Toronto, does a market like that have the time and the desire for it ? Not sure at all.
Using a slow rebuild approach is not without risks. Your young players need to be in a solid structure, you still need vets etc.
Not to say that they're just potential and promises. If you fail to have a solid team after 5 or 6 years...the reputation of the team is not the same, you've lost at least 8-9 years, which is huge in such a competitve world.
The biggest risk in life is not taking one.

We've proven that we have great scouting and have done much better than average for where we've drafted in recent years. I'd much rather have handed the reigns to our scouting group and traded for youngsters and additional picks than do what we did.

What exactly were we risking by doing this? Missing out on all the 8th place spots that we've achieved over the years?

You're right, maybe it wouldn't have worked out, but at least we could've tried. I think it would've yielded us better results than what we've gotten.


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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
St.Louis is an interesting example, i've already talked about it, but its been what, 3 years that we're saying that they're going to break out this year. Well, we're still waiting.

The time in Montreal, its even more precious, and rare.
We haven't had much to show for it. We've been a bubble club for a long, long time.

Yeah, I think we'll improve due to the emergence of Price and (hopefully) the emergence of Subban as stars. I just would've liked us to focus more on getting additional prospects to work with instead of going the route we chose.

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A lot of posters were asking for the head of Martin after the 09-10 season. Do you think its possible to see a team developing and evolving through the years in a stable environment for more than 4 years before being truely a solid team with a good chance of going deep in PO ?

The Gomez's trade is a bad decision, but heavily influenced by the weaknesses in the organization at the time. Lack of prospects, lack of young players in the NHL team, lack of heterogeneity in the profiles...its like a crack in the wall, its often leading to other problems later on.
The moves we made two years ago defined the direction of the team for more than you realize. It's not just the years that we have these guys under contract that are affected, it's the opportunity cost of not having invested in younger players that we could've developed to go along with guys like Price, Subban and MaxPac.

It didn't just ensure mediocrity for the short term, it made it more difficult for us to become a great team for the future...
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Weber is maybe good enough to be playing like Wisniewski is playing right now. A second-pairing defenseman with a good offensive potential on the PP.
We still have Pacioretty and Eller as first-round picks that are likely to be as good as they were supposed to be. And a wildcard in Desharnais.
Its not that bad.

It could have been better, but it implies radical changes that im not totally sure to be that positive for the team, even after few years.
What did we have to lose?

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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Well, they're often complaining about things that has been done months, if not years ago. And we cant fix it that easily, if we can, which is not sure, now.

The players are not always the same, the HC and the GM, too, a lot changes in 3 years. Even more in 5 or 6...

Right now, the last moves, through the last 2 seasons, at least, of Gauthier makes sense, and they're good.
He hasn't really put his stamp on the team yet but he seems to have been okay.

He had balls of steel to deal away Halak. I'm not sure if Eller will pan out or if we got enough in return but at least he went with a prospect that he believed in. To me, that's definitely a good sign. I also felt that he did well dealing for Wiz. Even though he wasn't able to re-sign him, he still put us in a position where we got him and had a chance at getting a good young player for little cost. So, I think he's actually done an okay job so far.
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Obviously.
What i meant, i think you know it, its the fact that the metrics data, and a lot of statistics (like the s%) are saying that we're in progress, just like the table is showing us that we did progress last year, just like it was obvious after watching the games.

We dont have to check whats going on with the other teams, just ours.
Our S% was much worse in 2011 than in 2010. While the 2011 team was much better. Not even debatable. The style of each one is even likely to help the 2011 version, i think, with the changes in the use of a guy Kostitsyn, the good help of Darche, and the 35 games of Pacioretty. But...it was not the case, which doesnt make much sense.

Its just to say that thats another reason to believe that we can easily improve.
And thats much more interesting to talk about that rather than if we were closer to Boston or Carolina.
Yes, as Mathman has stated shooting percentage has a high 'variability' (not sure if that's a word but whatever) to it and I believe him. That being said though (as you pointed out) the club was night and day different from the year before. Yes, we played better but we haven't shown enough consistency yet for me to buy that we're going to continue that path. I'm optimistic that we will (I have us ranked higher than the analysts) but it wouldn't suprise me in the least if we slumped back to what we were. We'll see.
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Well, im not a specialist, but today, its possible to come back after several surgeries in the same knee/foot/arm, the body of the player is obviously the most important factor in that, but we could think that he "simply" came back too early after the first knee surgery he had. Thats the positive thinking, but i feel its the one that sounds logical to me.
Nobody knows what's going to happen with him... The right thing to do is expect the worst and hope for the best. That way we're prepared if he goes down and improve even more if he doesn't.
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
A few years back, if we trade him, we take the road for Hall/Nugent-Hopkins. Its an important decision that will change everything for over a decade. The only season when we could trade him was in 09. Otherwise, its simply not possible. Earlier, he dont have enough value, later, the process is impossible to start again.

Again, you can have a roster full of promising players, it could not work. Especially in a market like ours.
If we traded him a few years ago it wouldn't have affected us at all. He hasn't really played for us anyway... we just would've got the benefit of the picks/prospects that we would've received in return.




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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Savard's injuries are not the same as Markov's. Its not even close, i would rather have Markov than Savard right now.
The same applies for Bergeron, he's fragile, too, the concussions are much worse than a serious problem at the knee.
The injuries are a part of the game, anyway, complaining about them wont win you games...
You're missing the point. I'm not saying that the injuries are the same. I'm saying the situation is the same. You're in denial if you don't see Markov as an injury risk now. He is, just like he was last year.
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Yes, we would have been obviously better, and Cup Winners ? Thats not really the point, the point, right now, for that team, is to progress year after year.
And that hasn't been the case. In recent years it's been a case of one step forward, one step back. We haven't seen progression or consistent improvement... yet.
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Gorges is not an all-star, but he's a solid D for us, and we already lost a solid D weeks before.
When you lose 2 players like them in the same position, you can take the best insurance policies you want, you're going to have a problem.

With Emelin, Diaz and Mitera, plus Weber, i think that Gauthier did indeed take care of that.
If he goes down, the young players are going to play and develop their game.
Again, not really my point. The point I was making was that players get hurt all the time. Gorges injury was a surprise but Markov's wasn't.
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
What happens if we lose Plekanec ? Thats the salary cap. You cant be deep everywhere. You have to make decisions, we decided to help our D. Thats the obvious decision with the recent injuries of Gorges and Markov.
Living in the fear brings nothing. Well, im not sure that the author of the sentence meant the fear of the injury, but still, i think it works.
Problem is that Pleks is a below average first line center to begin with. You're saying that if he goes down we should go out and get yet another mediocre type center to replace him? Then next year we're stuck with Pleks, Gomez plus whatever patchhole fix we get this year for Pleks... that's not going to help us build towards a cup.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post

If you guys can't keep it respectful and talk about the article and the team, and not start a pissing contest in the process, you'll get pulled from this thread.
That was awesome.
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I would just like to add that LafleursGuy pretty much sums up how I feel about the team and teams management. We've been pretty mediocre for years, but the one area we may disagree is the direction of this teams future. I think this team is building towards great things. We have one of the brightest futures in the league, we use to be lacking in the top end talent area, but even those days are passing. With Guys like PK/Price, we have solidified the 2 most important positions, then throw in guys like Pleks, Pac, Eller, Desharnais, Gorges, Yemelin, Weber, AK. We have plenty of pieces going forward, most of them affordable.
PK and Price have me excited. They are the best young players/prospects that we've had in... forever. The rest are okay. I'd really like us to have added more to go along with what we've got but that didn't happen.

Price and Subban have me excited but beyond that it's far murkier at this point.

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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Where we agree, is that the players that excite us and are likely to lead the way, won't be Gomez, Gionta ect. No offense to those 2 guys, but we'd be better off had we held onto McDonagh, Grabs, SK, Lats ect. We'd still be a playoff threat every year while positioning ourselves greatly towards the future. Gainey wasn't terrible, but the Gomez deal alone kinda cancels out all the good he has done. It was one of the dumbest moves since the lockout.
Yes, we definitely agree.
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Doom and gloom. The habs needed stability at center, and they went out and got it. I'm not that concerned about McD, the habs have lots of d-men in the system.
So what though. Even if we have lots of d-men in the system that was the worst example of resource management I've seen by us in years.

If Gainey wanted to get a center, fine. If he wanted (for some inexplicable reason) to get Gomez, fine. But don't trade McD for Gomez, that's a total waste of a valued prospect.

The Gomez deal made no sense whatsoever.



Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Koivu was not, and is not better than Gomez by the way, and I'd rather have 3 more seasons at 7.3 on Gomez than 5? or 6? at 5.5 with Wizniewski, and Richards wasn't going to come to Montreal unless they were giving him 8+ per year long term, and then in a couple years he would have been just as bad as Gomez.

He isn't worht his salary, but with the youth the habs have n the line up his salary is really a non factor. Now when he gets sub 40 points on a season it's an issue, but all this talk about who the habs could have been is just pure unadulterated malarkie.
It's not just his salary that's hurt us though. It's the opportunity cost of having wasted our time on a player that isn't going to lead us anywhere. If Gainey was eager to deal away McD, he should've used him to get us a better younger player who we could've built around. The asset management on that deal was atrocious and we never should've picked up Gomez to begin with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
So it wasn't correct that the Habs had a serious lack of depth in terms of top 6 centers and had to fix that problem?

Good to know.

Also LoL at preferring Koivu over Gomez. Guess I'm the only one who remember him not being able to play at a consistently high level over an 82 game season hey?

If Gomez' contract was such a huge deal, why do the habs have 5 million in cap space now? And why haven't they lost anyone who they really needed to keep because they couldn't afford them?
Again, it's not just the cap space that's the killer (though it's not good) it's the direction we took when we got him, the prospect we needlessly gave up and the opportunity cost of not getting a better, younger player to build around that really killed us. We could've been much further ahead if we went a different direction.

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Old
08-20-2011, 04:58 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The biggest risk in life is not taking one.

We've proven that we have great scouting and have done much better than average for where we've drafted in recent years. I'd much rather have handed the reigns to our scouting group and traded for youngsters and additional picks than do what we did.

What exactly were we risking by doing this? Missing out on all the 8th place spots that we've achieved over the years?

You're right, maybe it wouldn't have worked out, but at least we could've tried. I think it would've yielded us better results than what we've gotten.
Hard to know now.
The risks, well, we are not a model of stability over the past few years, which is a reason of our lack of success (lets say that it certainly did not help), and the pressure here, is not the same as it is in other markets where its easier to conduct such a plan.

Burke chose that way, with Toronto, Philadelphia did spent only one season only in the basement...I believe that today, the GM think that a team around the 9-10th spot is probably good enough to be kept how she is and is ready to be improved, and its for them, a better, or at least an easier way to do it.

Choosing to build a new team from scratch with picks, its like a boom or bust...either you've a good team in 4 or 5 years, either you've lost at least 10 years.
For the safety of your job, and for the franchise, i think its understandable if they chose to be sure of a 5-8th spot if they "just" do a solid job with what they have in the first place.

When we look at the real rebuilds done over the last few years, we can say that Washington, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Los Angeles and Chicago, among the 16 teams in the last PO, really did benefit from their respective rebuilds with high picks.
On the other hand, it means that the rest of the 11 teams did not, and we have what, 6 or 7 teams struggling despite their high picks.


Yes, we do a have a great scouting staff, but the number of young players breaking out in Montreal, recently, is not that big. The new staff possibly changes this (as we currently see Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, Subban and Weber in the team).

But even with a great scouting staff, you still need time and luck. The Blues and the Avalanche, as far as i know, are pretty good in the scouting area too, but they're still struggling.


We've been a bubble club for a very long time, but we should not blame the current staff for it. The players are almost all gone, the owner did change, the GM did change, the staff did change, its a fresh start.
We've seen countless threads complaining about Martin whereas he's by far the best coach we've had since...a decade probably, at least.
Thats with 15 years of mediocrity behind you. If you had 10 years of mediocrity + 5 years of garbage (because if you rebuild, you have to be garbage for a while), im not sure to have a positive environment.


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

Yeah, I think we'll improve due to the emergence of Price and (hopefully) the emergence of Subban as stars. I just would've liked us to focus more on getting additional prospects to work with instead of going the route we chose.
Considering the way they chose, i think we have done a good job. Anyway, we could talk about what could have done, its quite late now...



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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He hasn't really put his stamp on the team yet but he seems to have been okay.

He had balls of steel to deal away Halak. I'm not sure if Eller will pan out or if we got enough in return but at least he went with a prospect that he believed in. To me, that's definitely a good sign. I also felt that he did well dealing for Wiz. Even though he wasn't able to re-sign him, he still put us in a position where we got him and had a chance at getting a good young player for little cost. So, I think he's actually done an okay job so far.

Yes, as Mathman has stated shooting percentage has a high 'variability' (not sure if that's a word but whatever) to it and I believe him. That being said though (as you pointed out) the club was night and day different from the year before. Yes, we played better but we haven't shown enough consistency yet for me to buy that we're going to continue that path. I'm optimistic that we will (I have us ranked higher than the analysts) but it wouldn't suprise me in the least if we slumped back to what we were. We'll see.
Seriously, with all the injuries and disappointments in a personal level we had last season, we still clearly improved in a lot of areas. I think its more than enough to be confident about the fact its not a fluke.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nobody knows what's going to happen with him... The right thing to do is expect the worst and hope for the best. That way we're prepared if he goes down and improve even more if he doesn't.

If we traded him a few years ago it wouldn't have affected us at all. He hasn't really played for us anyway... we just would've got the benefit of the picks/prospects that we would've received in return.
Well...he did play.
But it would have affect us, just like a minor trade does.
But its an hypothetical scenario...


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You're missing the point. I'm not saying that the injuries are the same. I'm saying the situation is the same. You're in denial if you don't see Markov as an injury risk now. He is, just like he was last year.
No, no, i agree, its just that a concussion or similar problem (Hiller) is not on the same level, for me, as a knee problem is.
He's obviously a risk, and i hope that they will wait, this time, before playing.



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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Again, not really my point. The point I was making was that players get hurt all the time. Gorges injury was a surprise but Markov's wasn't.
What i meant is that with Plekanec or Gorges or whoever, you cant be ready to deal with every situation.


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Problem is that Pleks is a below average first line center to begin with. You're saying that if he goes down we should go out and get yet another mediocre type center to replace him? Then next year we're stuck with Pleks, Gomez plus whatever patchhole fix we get this year for Pleks... that's not going to help us build towards a cup.
If he goes down, i guess that our two young players named Eller and Desharnais will, first, have a shot in the unit. If we cant find a way within our organization, we have to consider that Gomez's contract is potentially a liability and possibly, slightly, but possibly, worth something in a trade...
The best thing to do would probably to deal for an upcoming UFA, but even if that kind of injury would be devastating, there is always something to use in this kind of situation. Eller could break out, some players will play better than expected or cant handle the new role, etc...

If we dont do something stupid, it could useful to build a contending team. The season is probably killed, but it could be useful.


Damn, these kind of posts is difficult to type.


Last edited by Rutabaga: 08-20-2011 at 05:12 PM.
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Old
08-20-2011, 05:13 PM
  #110
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I don't understand how you could expect more than PK and Price as building blocks lol.. Two potential superstars.. You can't have a team full of them lol.. I think we have a great mix of youth and veterans and its good because the youth don't have all the pressure on their shoulders and they can transition smoothly into the NHL.. There's no other way to do it in Montreal or you'll run players out of town with the expectations this city has. The great thing about PK and Carey is they have a great head on their shoulders and they'll be able to push through criticism.

The only annoying thing would maybe be the length of the contracts of the veterans because we will want to replace them with our youth at some point but its a good thing trades exist lol.

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Old
08-20-2011, 05:27 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
I don't understand how you could expect more than PK and Price as building blocks lol.. Two potential superstars.. You can't have a team full of them lol.. I think we have a great mix of youth and veterans and its good because the youth don't have all the pressure on their shoulders and they can transition smoothly into the NHL.. There's no other way to do it in Montreal or you'll run players out of town with the expectations this city has. The great thing about PK and Carey is they have a great head on their shoulders and they'll be able to push through criticism.

The only annoying thing would maybe be the length of the contracts of the veterans because we will want to replace them with our youth at some point but its a good thing trades exist lol.
There's so many good things about this team to look forward to Whereabouts, for some reason some people just always take the negative viewpoint approach, c'est la vie.

As for 2 potential superstars...some people say I'm getting ahead of myself, but I think we have 1 superstar and one potential superstar.

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08-20-2011, 08:01 PM
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Hard to know now.
The risks, well, we are not a model of stability over the past few years, which is a reason of our lack of success (lets say that it certainly did not help), and the pressure here, is not the same as it is in other markets where its easier to conduct such a plan.

Burke chose that way, with Toronto, Philadelphia did spent only one season only in the basement...I believe that today, the GM think that a team around the 9-10th spot is probably good enough to be kept how she is and is ready to be improved, and its for them, a better, or at least an easier way to do it.

Choosing to build a new team from scratch with picks, its like a boom or bust...either you've a good team in 4 or 5 years, either you've lost at least 10 years.
For the safety of your job, and for the franchise, i think its understandable if they chose to be sure of a 5-8th spot if they "just" do a solid job with what they have in the first place.
It hasn't gotten us anywhere... and it's not surprising. In fact, the only reason we even have Price is because we lucked out on in a once in a lifetime lottery win in 2005.
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When we look at the real rebuilds done over the last few years, we can say that Washington, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Los Angeles and Chicago, among the 16 teams in the last PO, really did benefit from their respective rebuilds with high picks.
On the other hand, it means that the rest of the 11 teams did not, and we have what, 6 or 7 teams struggling despite their high picks.
Those are just teams that have done it in the past few years though. Go look at the list of cup winners and see how many have been rebuilds. The vast majority of them are.

As for us, we have much better scouting than clubs that have failed. I'd argue that our scouting is among the very best in the league. We simply don't draft high enough or trade for enough prospects.

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Yes, we do a have a great scouting staff, but the number of young players breaking out in Montreal, recently, is not that big. The new staff possibly changes this (as we currently see Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, Subban and Weber in the team).

But even with a great scouting staff, you still need time and luck. The Blues and the Avalanche, as far as i know, are pretty good in the scouting area too, but they're still struggling.
Of course it's not big. We don't draft high enough. We build with good but not great picks and we develop good but not great teams... That's why we're constantly on the bubble.

Anyways, I've talked about this many times in the past and I'm repeating myself here. If you're actually interested in my thoughts on this stuff, you can look up some of my older posts because I don't want to get into this stuff again here.
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We've been a bubble club for a very long time, but we should not blame the current staff for it. The players are almost all gone, the owner did change, the GM did change, the staff did change, its a fresh start.
We've seen countless threads complaining about Martin whereas he's by far the best coach we've had since...a decade probably, at least.
Thats with 15 years of mediocrity behind you. If you had 10 years of mediocrity + 5 years of garbage (because if you rebuild, you have to be garbage for a while), im not sure to have a positive environment.

Considering the way they chose, i think we have done a good job. Anyway, we could talk about what could have done, its quite late now...
I'm not blaming the current GM.
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Seriously, with all the injuries and disappointments in a personal level we had last season, we still clearly improved in a lot of areas. I think its more than enough to be confident about the fact its not a fluke.

Well...he did play.
But it would have affect us, just like a minor trade does.
But its an hypothetical scenario...
We'd have been better off making the trade for sure.


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No, no, i agree, its just that a concussion or similar problem (Hiller) is not on the same level, for me, as a knee problem is.
He's obviously a risk, and i hope that they will wait, this time, before playing.

What i meant is that with Plekanec or Gorges or whoever, you cant be ready to deal with every situation.

If he goes down, i guess that our two young players named Eller and Desharnais will, first, have a shot in the unit. If we cant find a way within our organization, we have to consider that Gomez's contract is potentially a liability and possibly, slightly, but possibly, worth something in a trade...
The best thing to do would probably to deal for an upcoming UFA, but even if that kind of injury would be devastating, there is always something to use in this kind of situation. Eller could break out, some players will play better than expected or cant handle the new role, etc...

If we dont do something stupid, it could useful to build a contending team. The season is probably killed, but it could be useful.
An awful lot would have to go right for us to become a real contender with the prospects and players that we have now. And if Subban or Price don't elevate their games to the star level, I don't see us becoming contenders with this roster at all.
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Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
I don't understand how you could expect more than PK and Price as building blocks lol.. Two potential superstars.. You can't have a team full of them lol.. I think we have a great mix of youth and veterans and its good because the youth don't have all the pressure on their shoulders and they can transition smoothly into the NHL.. There's no other way to do it in Montreal or you'll run players out of town with the expectations this city has. The great thing about PK and Carey is they have a great head on their shoulders and they'll be able to push through criticism.

The only annoying thing would maybe be the length of the contracts of the veterans because we will want to replace them with our youth at some point but its a good thing trades exist lol.
As has well been established in this very thread, it's very, very hard to win a cup in a 30 team league.

Go look at the cup winners. The vast majority have multiple star/superstars on them.

Boston: Thomas/Chara
Pitts: Crosby/Malkin etc...
Det: Datsyuk/Lidstrom etc...
Chi: Toews, Kane/ Keith etc...

Some are stronger than others (Tampa/Carolina) but most clubs have multi HOF type guys leading the way.

I hate to break it to you, but in all likelyhood Price and Subban even if they become superstars, probably aren't enough. You're probably going to need another star and a really, really good roster to be able to do it. If we want to improve our odds and make a serious run, a star forward (which we've needed forever) would really put us into a contending position. It can be done without one (Boston just did it) but it's a lot harder to do. He doesn't have to be Crosby, but I think we need better than what we have right now.

And all this is based on Subban actually fulfilling his potential and becoming the player we all hope he will be. If he doesn't, then we're really back to square one. Great goaltending and not much else to look forward to.


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08-20-2011, 08:59 PM
  #113
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It hasn't gotten us anywhere... and it's not surprising. In fact, the only reason we even have Price is because we lucked out on in a once in a lifetime lottery win in 2005.

Those are just teams that have done it in the past few years though. Go look at the list of cup winners and see how many have been rebuilds. The vast majority of them are.
Well, even im not sure its really fair to compare the situation before the lockout to the one we have right now. The cap changes a lot of things, and today, its much more difficult to have 3 Top-10 picks in a row and expecting the team to be performant without losing other players in the process.

Boston did not used high picks to be successful, i think we could say that Vancouver (despite the Sedins) did not do that either.
Detroit did enjoy the luxury of a virtuous circle, but did not need very high picks either.

Philadelphia is not following that model either, the Devils did draft Niedermayer, the Sharks did draft Marleau, but it was more than 10 years ago, right now, im not sure its really that "safe" of a bet.

Would your 11th pick be better than Cammalleri or Gionta ?

Nothing is safe, i know, but i mean that the odds are not necessarily pointing towards that route. And i could easily understand that a GM and/or an HC dont want to lose his job in the process.

So, yes, it hasnt gotten us anywhere, but you also can consider thats because the job has not been done correctly.




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As for us, we have much better scouting than clubs that have failed. I'd argue that our scouting is among the very best in the league. We simply don't draft high enough or trade for enough prospects.

Of course it's not big. We don't draft high enough. We build with good but not great picks and we develop good but not great teams... That's why we're constantly on the bubble.
Well, a good management can build something with a good team. Thats what they're here for, i think.


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I'm not blaming the current GM.
You are not, but the classic complain, we are just a poor team since 5-10-15 years, while trying to make a point about the team through the years, including the team we have right now, its not really fair.


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An awful lot would have to go right for us to become a real contender with the prospects and players that we have now. And if Subban or Price don't elevate their games to the star level, I don't see us becoming contenders with this roster at all.
An awful lot to become a real contender ?
Well, we need to define what is a real contender first.

We have two good scorers in Gionta and Cammalleri, we have a great two-way player in Plekanec, we have youth in Pacioretty and Eller, a solid goalie, good special units, we can beat anyone.
We can be beaten by a lot of teams, but again, the last things we know are saying that the team in progressing, while we're ready to include several young players as regulars...we're on the right direction, lets try to do better next year. And the next one...

I think we are certainly able to challenge for the division title right now, not saying that we will win it, but we are going to be close to do it, which means that we might be good enough for a Cup in 2 or 3 years, if we avoid any mistake.


Quote:
As has well been established in this very thread, it's very, very hard to win a cup in a 30 team league.

Go look at the cup winners. The vast majority have multiple star/superstars on them.

Boston: Thomas/Chara
Pitts: Crosby/Malkin etc...
Det: Datsyuk/Lidstrom etc...
Chi: Toews, Kane/ Keith etc...

Some are stronger than others (Tampa/Carolina) but most clubs have multi HOF type guys leading the way.

I hate to break it to you, but in all likelyhood Price and Subban even if they become superstars, probably aren't enough. You're probably going to need a really, really good roster to be able to do it. If we want to improve our odds and make a serious run, a star forward (which we've needed forever) would really put us into a contending position. He doesn't have to be Crosby, but we need better than what we have right now.

And all this is based on Subban actually fulfilling his potential and becoming the player we all hope he will be. If he doesn't, then we're really back to square one. Great goaltending and not much else to look forward to.

I already said it earlier, but if you compare yourself to the best, you're always looking bad.

Right now, Price is the most promising goaltender of his generation. And he did deliver last year.
Subban is not at this level yet, but he's certainly going to be one of the very best players at his position, too.

Thats what matters. Of course, they could be disappointing later on, but right now, its quite hard to tell, and as far as we know, they're right on track for being the players we expect them to be.

Chara and Thomas as a winning combination, it was not that obvious at all when they started their career in the NHL.
Datsyuk struggled, too, Keith is a 2nd round pick.

Alone, they're not enough, obviously, but Pacioretty and Eller are promising players, too, the first one showed that he was good enough to play on a 1st line on a short basis. So, the "supporting cast" is not that bad either.

I think that for their generation, the combination of Subban and Price, is just as good as Hedman and Stamkos is and will be, for instance. If not better. Thats a positive sign.

When we look at the 2006, 2007 and 2008 drafts, considering their positions, and the fact that they take longer to develop, Philadelphia have a nice group of forwards, but forwards only, LA is probably on par with us with Doughty and Bernier, Washington is probably the only team in a clearly better position with Carlson, Alzner and Neuvirth, plus their previous drafts.


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08-20-2011, 10:04 PM
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Well, even im not sure its really fair to compare the situation before the lockout to the one we have right now. The cap changes a lot of things, and today, its much more difficult to have 3 Top-10 picks in a row and expecting the team to be performant without losing other players in the process.

Boston did not used high picks to be successful, i think we could say that Vancouver (despite the Sedins) did not do that either.
Detroit did enjoy the luxury of a virtuous circle, but did not need very high picks either.
While I don't necessarely disagree with your argumentation, I'll just link this page...

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08-20-2011, 11:49 PM
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Well, even im not sure its really fair to compare the situation before the lockout to the one we have right now. The cap changes a lot of things, and today, its much more difficult to have 3 Top-10 picks in a row and expecting the team to be performant without losing other players in the process.

Boston did not used high picks to be successful, i think we could say that Vancouver (despite the Sedins) did not do that either.
Detroit did enjoy the luxury of a virtuous circle, but did not need very high picks either.

Philadelphia is not following that model either, the Devils did draft Niedermayer, the Sharks did draft Marleau, but it was more than 10 years ago, right now, im not sure its really that "safe" of a bet.

Would your 11th pick be better than Cammalleri or Gionta ?

Nothing is safe, i know, but i mean that the odds are not necessarily pointing towards that route. And i could easily understand that a GM and/or an HC dont want to lose his job in the process.

So, yes, it hasnt gotten us anywhere, but you also can consider thats because the job has not been done correctly.
Yes, things aren't the same they used to be. Yes, it is harder to build a winner in a 30 team league. And yes, there will be non-rebuilds that will win cups. That doesn't mean that rebuilding isn't the most effective way to build a winner though. I won't say more than that. Go ahead and read my older posts if you wish. I've talked about this many times in the past.

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Well, a good management can build something with a good team. Thats what they're here for, i think.

You are not, but the classic complain, we are just a poor team since 5-10-15 years, while trying to make a point about the team through the years, including the team we have right now, its not really fair.

An awful lot to become a real contender ?
Well, we need to define what is a real contender first.

We have two good scorers in Gionta and Cammalleri, we have a great two-way player in Plekanec, we have youth in Pacioretty and Eller, a solid goalie, good special units, we can beat anyone.
We can be beaten by a lot of teams, but again, the last things we know are saying that the team in progressing, while we're ready to include several young players as regulars...we're on the right direction, lets try to do better next year. And the next one...

I think we are certainly able to challenge for the division title right now, not saying that we will win it, but we are going to be close to do it, which means that we might be good enough for a Cup in 2 or 3 years, if we avoid any mistake.
Pleks, Cammy, Gionta and Gomez and Markov will never be better than they are right now. Some of those guys won't even be on our roster in two to three years time. As it stands now we'll be building with MaxPac, Eller, Emelin, Subban and Price. Even if Subban and Price become elite I don't think that's a winning core to build around. Even if we augment it with FAs, I don't really see it being good enough right now. We just don't have enough great young players for me to get excited about.

Maybe things will work out for us. Maybe somebody like Leblanc will emerge. Maybe MaxPac is the next John Leclair, maybe Emelin will take us to the next level... we have some decent prospects but as it stands... the future looks okay, not great. A lot has to go right for us to become the perpetual contending team that we're all hoping for.
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I already said it earlier, but if you compare yourself to the best, you're always looking bad.
Unfortunately though, you have to compete against the best if you want to win a cup. Shouldn't we aspire to be as good or better than those clubs? Isn't that the whole point of what we're discussing here?
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Right now, Price is the most promising goaltender of his generation. And he did deliver last year.
Subban is not at this level yet, but he's certainly going to be one of the very best players at his position, too.

Thats what matters. Of course, they could be disappointing later on, but right now, its quite hard to tell, and as far as we know, they're right on track for being the players we expect them to be.

Chara and Thomas as a winning combination, it was not that obvious at all when they started their career in the NHL.
Datsyuk struggled, too, Keith is a 2nd round pick.

Alone, they're not enough, obviously, but Pacioretty and Eller are promising players, too, the first one showed that he was good enough to play on a 1st line on a short basis. So, the "supporting cast" is not that bad either.

I think that for their generation, the combination of Subban and Price, is just as good as Hedman and Stamkos is and will be, for instance. If not better. Thats a positive sign.

When we look at the 2006, 2007 and 2008 drafts, considering their positions, and the fact that they take longer to develop, Philadelphia have a nice group of forwards, but forwards only, LA is probably on par with us with Doughty and Bernier, Washington is probably the only team in a clearly better position with Carlson, Alzner and Neuvirth, plus their previous drafts.
For the purposes of what I was saying above, it doesn't matter where those guys were picked or if they were rebuilds... the point is that elite players are a key ingredient in cup winning teams. Most clubs have multi-HOF calibre players on their rosters leading the way. Those are the kinds of teams that we'll likely have to defeat in order to win a cup.

As for the future, I'm not sure how you come up with us being equal to LA. LA has Doughty, Kopitar, Richards and two promising goalies in Quick and Bernier. That's much more to work with than we've got.

Washington, Chicago, Pittsburgh are all teams that are already elite with young players and are way ahead of us. Two of those clubs have cups already.

Yes, I agree Price is amazing and I believe he is good enough to leading us to the promised land someday. A great goalie can take you a long way. Maybe he can lead us further in the postseason and higher in the rankings as early as this year. Hopefully that's the case here. but we need to do a better job of putting better players in front of him to help ensure ourselves of a better shot at winning a cup again someday. Subban is a step in the right direction but we need more good young prospects to build from. As it stands now, I don't have any real hope of us emerging as contenders anytime soon. Not with the roster we have now anyway.

Hopefully I'm wrong.


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08-21-2011, 09:00 AM
  #116
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Yes, things aren't the same they used to be. Yes, it is harder to build a winner in a 30 team league. And yes, there will be non-rebuilds that will win cups. That doesn't mean that rebuilding isn't the most effective way to build a winner though. I won't say more than that. Go ahead and read my older posts if you wish. I've talked about this many times in the past.


Pleks, Cammy, Gionta and Gomez and Markov will never be better than they are right now. Some of those guys won't even be on our roster in two to three years time. As it stands now we'll be building with MaxPac, Eller, Emelin, Subban and Price. Even if Subban and Price become elite I don't think that's a winning core to build around. Even if we augment it with FAs, I don't really see it being good enough right now. We just don't have enough great young players for me to get excited about.

Maybe things will work out for us. Maybe somebody like Leblanc will emerge. Maybe MaxPac is the next John Leclair, maybe Emelin will take us to the next level... we have some decent prospects but as it stands... the future looks okay, not great. A lot has to go right for us to become the perpetual contending team that we're all hoping for.

Unfortunately though, you have to compete against the best if you want to win a cup. Shouldn't we aspire to be as good or better than those clubs? Isn't that the whole point of what we're discussing here?

For the purposes of what I was saying above, it doesn't matter where those guys were picked or if they were rebuilds... the point is that elite players are a key ingredient in cup winning teams. Most clubs have multi-HOF calibre players on their rosters leading the way. Those are the kinds of teams that we'll likely have to defeat in order to win a cup.

As for the future, I'm not sure how you come up with us being equal to LA. LA has Doughty, Kopitar, Richards and two promising goalies in Quick and Bernier. That's much more to work with than we've got.

Washington, Chicago, Pittsburgh are all teams that are already elite with young players and are way ahead of us. Two of those clubs have cups already.

Yes, I agree Price is amazing and I believe he is good enough to leading us to the promised land someday. A great goalie can take you a long way. Maybe he can lead us further in the postseason and higher in the rankings as early as this year. Hopefully that's the case here. but we need to do a better job of putting better players in front of him to help ensure ourselves of a better shot at winning a cup again someday. Subban is a step in the right direction but we need more good young prospects to build from. As it stands now, I don't have any real hope of us emerging as contenders anytime soon. Not with the roster we have now anyway.

Hopefully I'm wrong.
As usual, I agree with LG. And I don't think he is negative about this team, just realistic. I like this team, we all do, but it's a big stretch to see us taking a cup the next three years.

One more thing: Let's be clear. We have at best a five year window to win a cup with Price. More likely 3 in Bettman's absurd free agent at 27 NHL. The matter is now urgent. Wake up guys.

Sadly, I do not think right now we will win a cup in this window, because we do not have a game breaking superstar forward. Yes, sounds simplistic, but like LG I believe we need one to win the cup.

And It's a damn shame.

That is why the year we drafted Price we might have considered tanking to rebuild around him immediately. I know that's controversial here, but we have not planned well for our Price window. He's that important. I refer you for example to Martin Brodeur.

I hope like hell I'm wrong guys, but I'm going to be so pissed when Price walks UFA at 27 and we've won **** all with him, because of poor planning.

Edit: And I will add: Price will leave at 27 if he sees no cup window with the Habs. Hence, it was doubly important to show him that we meant business. If Price wins a cup here, he stays for career, and wins another one or two.

Or , as is the now the case, we plan badly, and he leaves for a team that will win a cup or two during his prime years. Who can blame a generational talent in nets for doing so?

Price is that important, and our management has not shown the urgency required due to drafting him, in today's NHL especially, where cup windows are very rare. Mark me on this.

Again I refer you to the genius of the Devils in building around Martin Brodeur from the start.


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08-21-2011, 09:44 AM
  #117
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Yes, things aren't the same they used to be. Yes, it is harder to build a winner in a 30 team league. And yes, there will be non-rebuilds that will win cups. That doesn't mean that rebuilding isn't the most effective way to build a winner though. I won't say more than that. Go ahead and read my older posts if you wish. I've talked about this many times in the past.
I know how you feel it about it, and i hope that someday, we can find a GM or a former member of a management unit talking about the process, and how this kind of decision is taken.
Obviously, if you have a good opportunity to have a fresh start, it's probably the right decision, but it means so many things that except if you're in the 3 or maybe 4 worst teams in your conference, you're not going to take that road, thats the way it is today.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Pleks, Cammy, Gionta and Gomez and Markov will never be better than they are right now. Some of those guys won't even be on our roster in two to three years time. As it stands now we'll be building with MaxPac, Eller, Emelin, Subban and Price. Even if Subban and Price become elite I don't think that's a winning core to build around. Even if we augment it with FAs, I don't really see it being good enough right now. We just don't have enough great young players for me to get excited about.


Maybe things will work out for us. Maybe somebody like Leblanc will emerge. Maybe MaxPac is the next John Leclair, maybe Emelin will take us to the next level... we have some decent prospects but as it stands... the future looks okay, not great. A lot has to go right for us to become the perpetual contending team that we're all hoping for.
Plekanec is still improving his play, Cammalleri, Gomez and Markov cant be as "useless" as they have been for the team as they were last year (for different reasons). There is still some room.

Again, picks and prospects are just picks and prospects.
Cammalleri is worth much more than an 10 or a 15th pick, and its quite difficult to find a player like him, even with such a high pick.

I'll also say that depth is probably more important than the true elite talent if you want to win a Cup. How many good teams have lost their year with the injury of one key player ?
We potentially have that elite talent (G & D), we potentially have the depth, at this stage of their career (they've all played under 3 seasons in the NHL), we cant ask for much more.




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Unfortunately though, you have to compete against the best if you want to win a cup. Shouldn't we aspire to be as good or better than those clubs? Isn't that the whole point of what we're discussing here?

For the purposes of what I was saying above, it doesn't matter where those guys were picked or if they were rebuilds... the point is that elite players are a key ingredient in cup winning teams. Most clubs have multi-HOF calibre players on their rosters leading the way. Those are the kinds of teams that we'll likely have to defeat in order to win a cup.

As for the future, I'm not sure how you come up with us being equal to LA. LA has Doughty, Kopitar, Richards and two promising goalies in Quick and Bernier. That's much more to work with than we've got.

Washington, Chicago, Pittsburgh are all teams that are already elite with young players and are way ahead of us. Two of those clubs have cups already.

Yes, I agree Price is amazing and I believe he is good enough to leading us to the promised land someday. A great goalie can take you a long way. Maybe he can lead us further in the postseason and higher in the rankings as early as this year. Hopefully that's the case here. but we need to do a better job of putting better players in front of him to help ensure ourselves of a better shot at winning a cup again someday. Subban is a step in the right direction but we need more good young prospects to build from. As it stands now, I don't have any real hope of us emerging as contenders anytime soon. Not with the roster we have now anyway.

Hopefully I'm wrong.
We are not among the best yet. Who knows what could happen in 3 or 4 years. Right now the goal is to give us a chance to be better in the future while progressing for the next season.

LA, Chicago and Pittsburgh are not using players from the same generation. Toews, Kane, Richards, Kopitar, Crosby, Malkin, they already have a lot of games behind them.
Price did only have 2 seasons as a starter behind him, Subban is a rookie.

It doesnt matter in which kind of scenario this HOF-players were signed by their future teams, yes, but our best players are still at the beginning of their career. Give them time, especially considering their position, they still have a lot to learn.

Do you absolutely need an elite forward to win the Cup ? Im not sure at all. I would much rather use a versatile but talented, group of players rather than having the guarantee of a true elite forward.

Keith and Chara were not that good during their first 3 seasons, Thomas did not play in the NHL until he was 31, the Sedins have to wait quite a long time before being what they currently are...

Dont ask for too much too soon.
@bsl : A cup in the next 3 years ? Thats not a realistic goal. We just finished 6th, with 96 points. We should be able to be an outsider for the Cup, yes, but one step at the time.
And thats quite an overreaction about Price. We dont know whats going to happen this year, so in 3...

By the way, a window for the Cup ? Im not sure to agree with that concept. San Jose, Detroit, NJ did contend for years, Boston was not really among the safest bets to win this season, too...


At their age and stage of their career, they're among the bests at their position, which is enough to be reasonably confident about whats going to happen next. Now, its the toughest step, you have to confirm, to play even better while the expectations are bigger about you.

I think that after this year, we will have a better vision about the limits of this team and our young players.

I totally understand the doubts you could have, im not sure at all to have a forward group good enough to be really a threat, to be honest, i agree, i dont think that we will be good enough to challenge for the Presidents' Trophy for instance, as it is right now.

But i dont think we need to be dominant to win a Cup, and with a goalie like Price, we will always have an opportunity.
And our D is really looking good. Not because of Subban, but because of the potential depth alongside Subban. But we will have to wait.
At least, we probably have an area of strength where we can build something, thats an idea i like.


Last edited by Rutabaga: 08-21-2011 at 09:52 AM.
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08-21-2011, 11:20 AM
  #118
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
I know how you feel it about it, and i hope that someday, we can find a GM or a former member of a management unit talking about the process, and how this kind of decision is taken.
Obviously, if you have a good opportunity to have a fresh start, it's probably the right decision, but it means so many things that except if you're in the 3 or maybe 4 worst teams in your conference, you're not going to take that road, thats the way it is today.

Plekanec is still improving his play, Cammalleri, Gomez and Markov cant be as "useless" as they have been for the team as they were last year (for different reasons). There is still some room.

Again, picks and prospects are just picks and prospects.
Cammalleri is worth much more than an 10 or a 15th pick, and its quite difficult to find a player like him, even with such a high pick.

I'll also say that depth is probably more important than the true elite talent if you want to win a Cup. How many good teams have lost their year with the injury of one key player ?
We potentially have that elite talent (G & D), we potentially have the depth, at this stage of their career (they've all played under 3 seasons in the NHL), we cant ask for much more.
Yes you need depth and elite players. It's not one or the other. Right now we don't have enough of either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
We are not among the best yet. Who knows what could happen in 3 or 4 years. Right now the goal is to give us a chance to be better in the future while progressing for the next season.

LA, Chicago and Pittsburgh are not using players from the same generation. Toews, Kane, Richards, Kopitar, Crosby, Malkin, they already have a lot of games behind them.
Price did only have 2 seasons as a starter behind him, Subban is a rookie.
Not sure where you're coming from here. Kopitar and Crosby were taken from the same draft as Price.

Toews, Kane and Doughty are all YOUNGER than Price is. Doughty is actually younger than Subban believe it or not.

Malkin was drafted one year before Price and the 'old man' of the group is Mike Richards who certainly qualifies as being part of the same generation of players... The fact that these guys have 'lots of games behind them' as well as some cups to go along with it should show you what we're up against for the future. Those players are actually going to get better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
It doesnt matter in which kind of scenario this HOF-players were signed by their future teams, yes, but our best players are still at the beginning of their career. Give them time, especially considering their position, they still have a lot to learn.

Do you absolutely need an elite forward to win the Cup ? Im not sure at all. I would much rather use a versatile but talented, group of players rather than having the guarantee of a true elite forward.

Keith and Chara were not that good during their first 3 seasons, Thomas did not play in the NHL until he was 31, the Sedins have to wait quite a long time before being what they currently are...
You can win a cup with good but not great goaltending.
You can win a cup with good but not great defense.
You can win a cup with good but not great offense.

It's all been done before, but the clubs with the greatest chance at winning are great in all these areas. That's what we should aspire to do. If you have this, your odds go up considerably right? So why not try to build your team that way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Dont ask for too much too soon.
@bsl : A cup in the next 3 years ? Thats not a realistic goal. We just finished 6th, with 96 points. We should be able to be an outsider for the Cup, yes, but one step at the time.
And thats quite an overreaction about Price. We dont know whats going to happen this year, so in 3...

By the way, a window for the Cup ? Im not sure to agree with that concept. San Jose, Detroit, NJ did contend for years, Boston was not really among the safest bets to win this season, too...
So if you don't see us winning a cup in the next three years, why are we wasting our time signing guys like Eric Cole? What is the purpose of this? How does this help us to win a cup?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
At their age and stage of their career, they're among the bests at their position, which is enough to be reasonably confident about whats going to happen next. Now, its the toughest step, you have to confirm, to play even better while the expectations are bigger about you.

I think that after this year, we will have a better vision about the limits of this team and our young players.

I totally understand the doubts you could have, im not sure at all to have a forward group good enough to be really a threat, to be honest, i agree, i dont think that we will be good enough to challenge for the Presidents' Trophy for instance, as it is right now.

But i dont think we need to be dominant to win a Cup, and with a goalie like Price, we will always have an opportunity.
And our D is really looking good. Not because of Subban, but because of the potential depth alongside Subban. But we will have to wait.
At least, we probably have an area of strength where we can build something, thats an idea i like.
This kind of thinking just doesn't make any sense to me at all. If we aren't dominant, we can't realistically EXPECT to compete for a cup. We have to rely on luck to get us in and that leaves things entirely up to chance.

Why not take a different mentality and try to build the best team we can and THEN hope for the best? Doesn't that make more sense to you than getting Gomez or Eric Cole?

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08-21-2011, 12:21 PM
  #119
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Yes you need depth and elite players. It's not one or the other. Right now we don't have enough of either.
Yes, you need both, but i believe that depth is more important than truely having a game-breaking forward, like some may feel.
Pacioretty and Eller, for instance, that could be a very interesting duo. Could be, but just like any other player at this age.

Anyway, we potentially have the players to have that depth, and we potentially have this elite talent. Right now, yes, we dont have that, but we are not at this stage, and the potential is there.



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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Not sure where you're coming from here. Kopitar and Crosby were taken from the same draft as Price.

Toews, Kane and Doughty are all YOUNGER than Price is. Doughty is actually younger than Subban believe it or not.

Malkin was drafted one year before Price and the 'old man' of the group is Mike Richards who certainly qualifies as being part of the same generation of players... The fact that these guys have 'lots of games behind them' as well as some cups to go along with it should show you what we're up against for the future. Those players are actually going to get better.
I know, but they're not playing at the same position.
We know that a goalie takes much more time to develop, we know that a defenseman hit his prime much later than a forward.

Doughty is the only player i can safely bet about being better than Subban, at this stage of his career. And Price is the best goaltender you could find under 25.

Very good forwards are much easier to find that a very good D or a very good goaltender.

If you have a Top-3 Goalie in the league and a Top-5 or Top-10 D, you're not that far from being a contender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You can win a cup with good but not great goaltending.
You can win a cup with good but not great defense.
You can win a cup with good but not great offense.

It's all been done before, but the clubs with the greatest chance at winning are great in all these areas. That's what we should aspire to do. If you have this, your odds go up considerably right? So why not try to build your team that way?
I doubt that they were great in all of those areas. The defense of Pittsburgh was not that great, Chicago and Detroit did not have a great goaltender, Boston did not have a game-breaking forward...

If its possible, dont you think it make sense for the management to chose this way instead of a risky manoeuver by starting a brand new team ?
Thats all i meant, today, its so close, that you dont have to be dominant to win the Cup, and the thing is that you basically cant be dominant.

We seem to chose a way, with a strong defensive unit, its an acceptable choice and i absolutely dont know if its the best one, but i find it interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So if you don't see us winning a cup in the next three years, why are we wasting our time signing guys like Eric Cole? What is the purpose of this? How does this help us to win a cup?
If im not seeing us winning the cup, its mostly because of Gomez.
Honestly, if you switch the Gomez we have with a consistent player like he was with the Devils, i dont see why its impossible to win it.

Signing Cole "simply" improve the team, currently good enough to challenge for the division, which is not that far at all from contending, to push the young players, to give them the confidence about the future, to show that we believe that this group can still improve etc...
And it was the best option we had.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
This kind of thinking just doesn't make any sense to me at all. If we aren't dominant, we can't realistically EXPECT to compete for a cup. We have to rely on luck to get us in and that leaves things entirely up to chance.

Why not take a different mentality and try to build the best team we can and THEN hope for the best? Doesn't that make more sense to you than getting Gomez or Eric Cole?
You see us at 5th. Thats a reasonable goal, i think we're going to finish at 5th too. League-wise, that should be good for 10-11th. Thats a progress, and we're not that far from the top, still with room for improvement.

Now, there is more reason to believe that we can do better than reasons to believe that we can do worse.

We only have 2 teams, and for one of them, its debatable that are clearly better than us in the conference.

When you're that close with around 10-11M$ of lost money on the cap, it means that in the future, you can win.

Today, i said it, but you cannot be dominant. Every team has weaknesses.
And there is a compromise between relying on luck and being dominant. You can be a good team with a lucky bounce going your way. Boston did have a better team, but needed 3 OT wins against us.
Vancouver did need a Game 7 against Chicago...

When it so hard to build a Cup-winning team, its quite easy to understand the choices that some GM made.
A rebuild can bring you higher, but only "can", and its not more likely at all, the risks are just too big for the franchise.

You would start a new team instead of trying to fix it progressively, but giving up on at least 3 or 4 years in order to potentially have a better shot, in such a competitive environment, its a risky move. The franchises dont like risks.

When they decide to do it, its always because they dont have any other option and their future is really dark anyway. Which often means that there is some problems in the organization, by the way, otherwise you wouldnt be in that situation.

I am too lazy to check, but i dont think that any rebuilds has been done on a team, recently, just 3-4 points shy of the PO with a decent future. Just a decent future.

Now, were we in that situation...hard to say. We were 8th, but we did not have enough assets. Minus Markov and Plekanec, honestly, it was not really exciting.

Maybe we could have done it, but now its too late, and i understand the decision to not doing it.

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08-21-2011, 12:59 PM
  #120
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/mindblown. Some posters on this site actually have found a way to rival the famous neofurian text wall.

I think life as we know it will never be the same.

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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
I understand you. I agree with much of what you say.

However, every single negative thing in your post that you attribute by proxy to me I have never said. Ever. Example: Vince to Montreal? I never ever wanted such a move, in fact, for those of us who argue the Habs need to be more competent, that would have been a joke.

I don't live in the past either. And I don't want to. So to you and others who keep bringing this up, please stop.

And I am not a retard dude. I don't call you one, therefore don't use the term when quoting me please. And don't put words in my mouth.

Yes it's hard to succeed in the NHL today. We 'pessimists' know that. What's the term? Oh yeah: DUH!

We have not been a cup threat for 20 years. That is all I have to say, and it is all I need to say. I think that is unacceptable, and I stand by my opinion.
Just for the record these were general statements. We haven't won a cup in 20 years but you can't fault current management for all of that. Since they cleaned up the ****** mess they were given we've been a much better team and heading in the right direction. You can't just say we haven't won in 20 years and blame current management for that. PG has been the GM for very little time thus far and posters on here are crucifying management

Didn't mean to say you're retarded I just find it pretty retarded how people try to claim because we haven't won yet we don't want to win. That's absolutely ludicrous and quite honestly a very naive thing to think. Saying things like that just proves some people are too arrogant to put their ego aside and realize Pierre Gauthier and Bob Gainey know a lot more about running an NHL team than they do plain and simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
I don't understand how you could expect more than PK and Price as building blocks lol.. Two potential superstars.. You can't have a team full of them lol.. I think we have a great mix of youth and veterans and its good because the youth don't have all the pressure on their shoulders and they can transition smoothly into the NHL.. There's no other way to do it in Montreal or you'll run players out of town with the expectations this city has. The great thing about PK and Carey is they have a great head on their shoulders and they'll be able to push through criticism.

The only annoying thing would maybe be the length of the contracts of the veterans because we will want to replace them with our youth at some point but its a good thing trades exist lol.
No matter how good or bad a job our management could do barring a dynasty none of the haters will ever be pleased. They say they understand the concept of it being a 30 team league with limited number of good management types, coaches and players. They say they understand this concept that there is a salary cap. But quite honestly all I see is people who clearly don't understand this concept and yet claim to. If it weren't the case then expectations wouldn't be so ridiculous. You can't fault current management for cleaning up a huge mess and doing everything but winning a cup. We've been 1st in the conference, we've made it to the conference finals, all under this management. It hasn't been perfect but it's most certainly heading in the right direction.

We have Subban and Price but it's never good enough. We need to have Crosby Malkin Ovy and Parise too, or else Gainey and Gauthier are complete utter failures.

It's quite embarrassing to see how unrealistic some fans are. Some teams just got their 1st cup since the 1970s. Some teams have never won a cup. Luck plays its part too. Who you play, who does or doesn't stay healthy. But of course it's managements fault for not having a magic wand or building the team exactly to Lafleurs Guy or some other HF members specifications, because like we all know HF members know better than guys who have lived NHL careers, been scouts or have won cups. I guess Gainey didn't win **** in 88-89. I guess our management is just incompetent because a bunch of folks on an internet forum who are sour that we aren't being handed cups on a silver platter anymore know more than guys like Gainey, Gauthier, Timmins, etc who inherited a mess and cleaned it up pretty nicely.

Sorry but it's embarrassing how some folks around here think they could do better. Wake up from that dream world you're living in.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 08-21-2011 at 01:27 PM. Reason: merged
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08-24-2011, 12:36 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
The simple fact is that when a team is fighting for a playoff spot, every game counts and the simple fact is that with 10 games remaining, the Habs had a magic number of 10. This means they could afford to lose 5 of their last 10 games and so not every game was important, and that's considering Carolina would go 10-0-0, without needing them to lose one game. Habs went 5-4-1 and didn't need Carolina to lose in that span, because even if they did go 10-0-0, they would still have finished behind the Habs.

You added that argument about the 6-2 Carolina beating at the end of the season and that CAR were only 2 points behind us, and unlike you, I won't try to sidestep your arguments.

The simple fact is that Carolina were 6 points behind after that game, and in actuality, as they did not have the games remaining to catch up the Habs for the number of regulation wins, they were 7 points behind to pass the Habs, with the Habs having 4 games left and the Canes, 5 games left. The magic number was at 2 after that game (and before it). This meant that out of 9 games (Habs + CAR), Habs either needed ONE win, or ONE Reg loss by Carolina. At that point, it was almost a formality. So yeah, you're probably the one who should've checked that thread... ahem.

All this points to one glarring fact : Habs didn't need to fight for a playoff spot.


And inversely, Habs trailed Boston by a few points almost all season long and did battle for the division for most of the season.
Hahahaha. So now the only reason we allowed ourselves to be a whisker away from 9th with two weeks left in the season was that the players knew they could, and I quote, "afford" to lose games since they weren't that important? I believe we've hit a brand new low in the mitigation of the Habs' shortcomings... and trust me, that's saying something.

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Old
08-24-2011, 05:18 AM
  #122
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Add Winchester and we are a complete team this upcoming season as follows:

Cammalleri - Plekanec - Cole
Pacioretty - Gomez - Gionta
Kostitsyn - Eller - Desharnais
Winchester - White - Moen
Darche

Markov - Gorges
Gill - Subban
Spacek - Yemelin
Weber

Price
Budaj

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Old
08-24-2011, 06:13 AM
  #123
SB164
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The bounce back season

by Arpon Basu

Scott Gomez likes to spend parts of his off-season fishing in the bush in his native Alaska, and if that preferred pastime meant he was isolated from all forms of communication then it would have been a good idea for him to stay in the wilderness all summer long.

Right from the Canadiens post-mortem press conference held exactly four months ago this coming Saturday, Gomez's future with the team was a hot topic of conversation.


http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...medium=twitter

Here's the link to Kirk Muller's interview on Team 990 (from Monday): http://www.team990.com/sound_bytes/v...audio_clips/1/

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