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Old
08-20-2011, 03:50 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by seeweed View Post
it wasn't like this for nearly 2 decades like the jays though. the jays have had to put up with the yankees and red sox a hell of a lot longer than the leafs have had to put up with the three goaltenders.
bad management will do that.

You are praising AA but remember how grim it was with JP?

Welcome to how JFJ was for the leafs.

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08-20-2011, 05:09 PM
  #127
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I would go so far to say that AA is such a superior GM that I would prefere him to run the Leaf's over Burke, despite the fact that he has no previous history in Hockey, based solely on the philosphy in which he builds his franchises. Burke is best suited to go GM the Yankee's where his loud mouth media hogging and throwing around prospects for an instant fix would be the norm.
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
Exactly.

Leafs are ultra thin in terms of depth and the positions they are thick at, defense and goaltending, people want to get rid of.

The Jays' are l4-5 players deep at almost every position.
You too are like the loud mouth minority on twitter who make these same stupid claims, and have nearly zero proof to back it up.

Ok, in one trade, ONE you could argue Burke overpaid for a player (Kessel). Even then, adding a talent like Kessel (who is 24) is an understandable risk to take. In every subsequent trade, he's done a fantastic job of adding talent to the roster, and youth to the system. But just in case either of you forgot these deals, I'll outline them for you.

Jamal Mayers, Ian White, Matt Stajan and Niklas Hagman for Dion Phaneuf, Keith Aulie and, Fredrik Sjojstrom.

Even if Keith Aulie isn't added to this deal, it's a gem of a swap for Burke. He gives up nothing of consequence, and in return he receives a top pairing defender in Phaneuf. Sjojstrom ended up being a filler, and a contract coming back. But you add in Aulie, who is just turning 22, and appears to be the perfect fit for the top pairing w/ Phaneuf. I don't see any pilfering of the prospect pool for aging vets here.

Francois Beauchemin for Joffrey Lupul and Jake Gardiner.

Lupul still has two years left on his deal, so the key was freeing up salary for the Ducks. To do so, Burke took advantage, and was able to land a 2008 1st round pick in Jake Gardiner. A kid who tore up NCAA, and is considered an elite skater. Burke sure screwed the pooch on that one too, eh?

Tomas Kaberle for a 1st round pick in 2011, 2008 1st round (moved up to select Tyler Biggs) pick Joe Colborn AND, a 2nd round pick in 2011 (traded for Liles).

Considering many of the so called NHL insiders were speculating Burke should be happy to get a 2nd round pick for Kaberle, I think he's done more than decent with this deal.

Brett Lebda and John Slaney for Lombardi and Cody Franson.

...

So tell me, where's this Loud Mouth that trows away picks and prospects for the quick fix?

Comparing Burke to AA is stupid, and unfair in the moves that they've been able to make. Baseball has a lot of moves where teams need to move a player for one reason or another. In a situation like Rasmus, it was obvious, and well documented that there was a Carl Lindros type scenario occuring, which lead to them dealing him for likely less than his worth. AA has done a good job identifying very talented players who maybe just needed a change in scenery. Now tell me, how many of these types of moves you see in Hockey?

Smarten up, take a look at the bigger picture. Take a look at the organization Burke inherrited compared to the one AA got from Ricciardi. The Leafs are in much, MUCH better shape today, than they were when Burke took over.

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08-20-2011, 05:45 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Wendelsmustache View Post
This is just the most recent article in a long line of surprisingly positive stories from Cox.

He still annoys me.
Some columnists here get a bad rep for just doing their job. It isn't much of a stretch of any imagination that these last few years haven't exactly been a huge success here. Yet people whine that about almost every negative article written.

What do these people want, the same cheerleading styled writing you'll find in Montreal and Vancouver? Is that much better? I've been there, and a culture of pure delusion isn't an upgrade at all.

Heck, the articles could be much worse here. There has been a hell of a lot of negative aspects to feed off of for content.

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08-20-2011, 06:28 PM
  #129
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There's very lttle in the way both GMs are conducting business .

AA from the start has been all about adding top end propects . There was no time frame in which he hoped they developed into major leaguers . He didn't care if they were potentially 1 year or 4 years away , as long as they were blue chip rated he was interested . AA didn't trade vets last year for mid level or avg type propspects but instead let them go via free agency because he wanted the picks he would recieve and he believes they may develop into higher end prospects . If a high qaulity player is avaiable he jumps at that as well. With AA it's all about filling the system and team with layers upon layers of high end prospects .

BB started with the accelerated rebuild which failed as have most of his free wallets and free agent signings .He's now switched to preaching about youth and praising how young we are but we have no high quality prospects or youth outside of Schenn , Kessel , Kadri and perhaps Reims , maybe you can add Kul and DP in there as well dependind on where you think the age cut off is .Aquiring mid level players or prospects are fine but without an elite core your not going very far in the playoffs . He praches youth and then adds Connoly and JML . It seems like the so called youth movement is just a diversion while the team had another poor season without it's 1st round pick .

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08-20-2011, 06:52 PM
  #130
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This is why I don't spend much time here anymore, because somehow you guys get it in your head that Burke has changed his strategy since coming to Toronto. The plan has always been the same. But nobody can look past the Kessel trade as this so called indication that he's fast tracking. As for Liles, he's in a contract year, and will ultimately be replaced by one of Gardiner, or Blacker somewhere down the line. Connolly is on a two year deal, which makes him a stop gap solution at center so players like Colborne, Kadri (if he were to play center), McKegg etc. have an opportunity to develop without the pressure of having to take over as one of the top line centers now. Does it continue to be fair to Bozak, to have to play those minutes? Was Burke supposed to just not do anything this summer?

Stop falling for this crap that Burke has changed his plan since taking over. Depth in the team/system through drafting, trades and signings has always been the direction of the team. Burke mentioned as much in the initial presser he did three years ago. Absolutely nothing has changed this approach, despite what his detracters like to say.

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08-20-2011, 06:58 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
This is why I don't spend much time here anymore, because somehow you guys get it in your head that Burke has changed his strategy since coming to Toronto. The plan has always been the same. But nobody can look past the Kessel trade as this so called indication that he's fast tracking. As for Liles, he's in a contract year, and will ultimately be replaced by one of Gardiner, or Blacker somewhere down the line. Connolly is on a two year deal, which makes him a stop gap solution at center so players like Colborne, Kadri (if he were to play center), McKegg etc. have an opportunity to develop without the pressure of having to take over as one of the top line centers now. Does it continue to be fair to Bozak, to have to play those minutes? Was Burke supposed to just not do anything this summer?

Stop falling for this crap that Burke has changed his plan since taking over. Depth in the team/system through drafting, trades and signings has always been the direction of the team. Burke mentioned as much in the initial presser he did three years ago. Absolutely nothing has changed this approach, despite what his detracters like to say.
Ye gads! Someone who actually gets it!!!

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08-20-2011, 07:05 PM
  #132
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I don't see the connection to be honest.

AA is building a powerhouse. Burke is building an 8th place team.

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08-20-2011, 07:08 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
I would go so far to say that AA is such a superior GM that I would prefere him to run the Leaf's over Burke, despite the fact that he has no previous history in Hockey, based solely on the philosphy in which he builds his franchises. Burke is best suited to go GM the Yankee's where his loud mouth media hogging and throwing around prospects for an instant fix would be the norm.
Agreed!

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08-20-2011, 07:32 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
This is why I don't spend much time here anymore, because somehow you guys get it in your head that Burke has changed his strategy since coming to Toronto. The plan has always been the same. But nobody can look past the Kessel trade as this so called indication that he's fast tracking. As for Liles, he's in a contract year, and will ultimately be replaced by one of Gardiner, or Blacker somewhere down the line. Connolly is on a two year deal, which makes him a stop gap solution at center so players like Colborne, Kadri (if he were to play center), McKegg etc. have an opportunity to develop without the pressure of having to take over as one of the top line centers now. Does it continue to be fair to Bozak, to have to play those minutes? Was Burke supposed to just not do anything this summer?

Stop falling for this crap that Burke has changed his plan since taking over. Depth in the team/system through drafting, trades and signings has always been the direction of the team. Burke mentioned as much in the initial presser he did three years ago. Absolutely nothing has changed this approach, despite what his detracters like to say.
I guess when Burke said he wasn't interested in a long rebuild and he made trades and signings that he himself said were part of an accelerated rebuild plan i should have just assumed he was lieing?

It wasn't just the Kessel trade . When he traded Poni he said he wasn't interested in waiting for picks to develop and thats why he wanted a prospect he thought was near NHL ready . There was no reason to sign Komi or Beau if he really was building for 5 years down the line .

Also , if he's going the youth movement why sign JML . Why not give one of our other D prospects a shot while we're waiting for our higher end D prospects to develop .

I don't understand why some posters feel the need to try to spin and justify Burkes every move . There isn't a GM in any sport that never makes a mistake . Burkes original plan failed and we'll see if his new course leads to better results .

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08-20-2011, 07:37 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I guess when Burke said he wasn't interested in a long rebuild and he made trades and signings that he himself said were part of an accelerated rebuild plan i should have just assumed he was lieing?

It wasn't just the Kessel trade . When he traded Poni he said he wasn't interested in waiting for picks to develop and thats why he wanted a prospect he thought was near NHL ready . There was no reason to sign Komi or Beau if he really was building for 5 years down the line .



Also , if he's going the youth movement why sign JML . Why not give one of our other D prospects a shot while we're waiting for our higher end D prospects to develop .

I don't understand why some posters feel the need to try to spin and justify Burkes every move . There isn't a GM in any sport that never makes a mistake . Burkes original plan failed and we'll see if his new course leads to better results .

I guess we should have stuck with jfj. He was doing a great job. At the time we brought in burke who else was available?

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08-20-2011, 07:49 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by jasonleaffan View Post
I guess we should have stuck with jfj. He was doing a great job. At the time we brought in burke who else was available?
So just because JFJ was a failure that some how justifies Burkes performance so far ?

There's always other candidates . I would have gone after Nill .

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08-20-2011, 07:56 PM
  #137
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So just because JFJ was a failure that some how justifies Burkes performance so far ?

There's always other candidates . I would have gone after Nill .

I asked u who else was available? Who had the best pedigree? Would u perfer we stuck with jfj or cliff. Sence the signing of burke has there been a better gm come available who could handle t.o? And wanted to be here. Its easy to bash burke, but what was the alternative?

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08-20-2011, 07:57 PM
  #138
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Also , if he's going the youth movement why sign JML . Why not give one of our other D prospects a shot while we're waiting for our higher end D prospects to develop.
Perhaps I can take a stab at this for you. In my opinion, it is management's job to try and make a team as competitive as it can in any circumstance, and that includes a rebuild/retool. Sure, Liles doesn't exactly fit the bill as part of our young core, and neither does Connolly for that matter, but it's not as though they are old and past their prime and not going to make us better in any way. The same question could be asked of AA, why did he bring in Rauch and Francisco, and Dotel (before he was traded). None of those guys fit the youth movement of the Jays either, but AA wants to make this team relatively competitive and thought those guys would help as stopgaps. It isn't fair to players to put them in situations when they aren't ready to succeed, hence why the Leafs brought in Connolly and Liles as stopgaps, and not many people see them as anything but. Also, it isn't fair to the fans, they want to see a decent team, yes, fans of rebuilding teams are willing to be patient and see their prospects grow in front of their eyes, but if management can do anything to make the team better now, while sticking to the plan, the fans should expect that type of move to be made.

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08-20-2011, 07:58 PM
  #139
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Whos nill?

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08-20-2011, 08:00 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by jasonleaffan View Post
Whos nill?
Red Wings assistant GM

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08-20-2011, 08:02 PM
  #141
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Whos nill?
Asst GM Det.

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08-20-2011, 08:03 PM
  #142
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Red Wings assistant GM
Was he available to us when we signed burke?

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08-20-2011, 08:04 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by jasonleaffan View Post
Was he available to us when we signed burke?
in theory, any assistant GM is always available provided the team allows you permission to interview them. Most do however as its seen as a huge opportunity for them and its the professional thing to do.

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08-20-2011, 08:11 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Bleed Blue and White View Post
Perhaps I can take a stab at this for you. In my opinion, it is management's job to try and make a team as competitive as it can in any circumstance, and that includes a rebuild/retool. Sure, Liles doesn't exactly fit the bill as part of our young core, and neither does Connolly for that matter, but it's not as though they are old and past their prime and not going to make us better in any way. The same question could be asked of AA, why did he bring in Rauch and Francisco, and Dotel (before he was traded). None of those guys fit the youth movement of the Jays either, but AA wants to make this team relatively competitive and thought those guys would help as stopgaps. It isn't fair to players to put them in situations when they aren't ready to succeed, hence why the Leafs brought in Connolly and Liles as stopgaps, and not many people see them as anything but. Also, it isn't fair to the fans, they want to see a decent team, yes, fans of rebuilding teams are willing to be patient and see their prospects grow in front of their eyes, but if management can do anything to make the team better now, while sticking to the plan, the fans should expect that type of move to be made.
I understand what your saying but the payoff with a higher pick in the NHL is much greater than it is in Baseball . If Burkes on a youth movement then he should go with that and let the chips fall where they may . The worst that could happen is we get a higher pick in a great draft .Who knows maybe one of our lesser prospects shocks us and turns into a quality player .

Like another poster said , AA is going for a championship and Burke is aiming for a bottom end playoff team .

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08-20-2011, 08:11 PM
  #145
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in theory, any assistant GM is always available provided the team allows you permission to interview them. Most do however as its seen as a huge opportunity for them and its the professional thing to do.
But i also asked who wanted to be here. Not just who is an assitant gm on another team that our fans target.

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08-20-2011, 08:24 PM
  #146
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AA is the man.

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08-20-2011, 08:41 PM
  #147
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I understand what your saying but the payoff with a higher pick in the NHL is much greater than it is in Baseball . If Burkes on a youth movement then he should go with that and let the chips fall where they may . The worst that could happen is we get a higher pick in a great draft .Who knows maybe one of our lesser prospects shocks us and turns into a quality player .

Like another poster said , AA is going for a championship and Burke is aiming for a bottom end playoff team .
I'm not sure I agree with that. I think Burke is trying to build a championship team too, it certainly doesn't seem like it at this point I grant you, but to suggest otherwise implies that Burke doesn't take his job seriously and is content with getting knocked out in the first round if it means making the playoffs. I don't believe that. I think one of the major advantages that AA has over Burke is that in baseball, with no cap, trades seem to be more readily available than in hockey, not to mention that higher end players always seem to move more often in baseball, allowing a baseball team to retool itself quicker, I could be wrong there, but that's the impression I get.

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08-20-2011, 08:48 PM
  #148
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But i also asked who wanted to be here. Not just who is an assitant gm on another team that our fans target.
You asked a question that can't be answeared . All i can say is there's always other candidates , whether they would have come we'll never know .

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08-20-2011, 08:54 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Bleed Blue and White View Post
I'm not sure I agree with that. I think Burke is trying to build a championship team too, it certainly doesn't seem like it at this point I grant you, but to suggest otherwise implies that Burke doesn't take his job seriously and is content with getting knocked out in the first round if it means making the playoffs. I don't believe that. I think one of the major advantages that AA has over Burke is that in baseball, with no cap, trades seem to be more readily available than in hockey, not to mention that higher end players always seem to move more often in baseball, allowing a baseball team to retool itself quicker, I could be wrong there, but that's the impression I get.
Your right , Burke does want to win the cup just like every other GM . I shouldn't have used the word aiming . I should have said somthing like "the team looks like it heading towards being a lower end playoff team as it's ceiling" .

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08-20-2011, 09:09 PM
  #150
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Your right , Burke does want to win the cup just like every other GM . I shouldn't have used the word aiming . I should have said somthing like "the team looks like it heading towards being a lower end playoff team as it's ceiling" .
And at this moment in time I agree with you. All I can say is this, player's values rise and fall all the time. Good general managers realize when a player's stock is high, and sell, and buy low, which is true in any sport. So far AA seems to have done the better job, but who knows right? Aaron Hill 2 years ago was widely considered one of the best 2nd basemen in the AL, not many would say that now (well offensively anyways). Who knows? Joe Colborne could be a star; Brett Lawrie could be a bust (highly unlikely in my mind of course), but the great thing about sports in general is you really never know what'll happen, things are fluid and they change really quickly. I'm excited for the future of both teams, so who's "ahead" at this point is irrelevant to me, as long as they both reach the end goal.

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