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08-21-2011, 09:19 AM
  #1
MiamiScreamingEagles
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Best/Worst Trades and Playoffs OT goals

Bill has a column on the five best and worst trades in team history.

We can offer opinions and rankings in this thread.

Worst -- http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...rades/45/37657

Quote:
1) Brad McCrimmon to Calgary for 1989 1st Round draft choice (later transferred to Toronto; Steve Bancroft) and 1988 3rd Round draft choice (Dominic Roussel)

2. Patrick Sharp and Eric Meloche to Chicago for Matt Ellison and a 2006 3rd Round draft choice (transferred to Montreal -- Ryan White)

3. Dave Poulin to Boston for Ken Linseman

4. Brian Propp to Boston for a 1990 2nd Round draft pick (Terran Sandwith)

5) Maxime Ouellet, 2002 1st Round draft pick (transferred to Dallas - Martin Vagner), 2002 2nd Round draft pick (Maxime Daigneault), and a 2002 3rd Round draft pick (Derek Krestanovich) to Washington for Adam Oates
Best -- http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=37647

Quote:
1) Bernie Parent & 1973 2nd Round draft choice (Larry Goodenough) from Toronto Maple Leafs for Doug Favell and 1973 1st Round draft choice (Bob Neely)

2) John LeClair, Eric Desjardins and Gilbert Dionne from Montreal Canadiens for Mark Recchi and a 1995 3rd Round draft choice (Martin Hohenberger)

3) Mark Howe and a 1983 3rd Round draft choice (Derrick Smith) from Hartford Whalers for Ken Linseman, Greg Adams, 1983 1st Round draft choice (David Jensen) and 1983 3rd Round draft choice (Leif Karlsson)

4) Rod Brind'Amour and Dan Quinn from St.Louis Blues for Ron Sutter and Murray Baron

5) Murray Craven and Joe Paterson from Detroit for Darryl Sittler
Good comments regarding Craven. A player too often overlooked in team annals.

The Propp/Poulin trades were part of a power struggle of sorts with Clarke and Jay Snider regarding the direction of the team. Clarke helped both players by dealing them to a Cup contender.

I might put the Handzus/Calder trade in among the worst but there were the effects of the unknown with Primeau at the time.

I also might put the Reggie Leach acquisition among the best though a dealt player, Al MacAdam, became a good NHL forward.


Last edited by MiamiScreamingEagles: 08-28-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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Old
08-21-2011, 10:20 AM
  #2
DrinkFightFlyers
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Brind'Amour trade was a steal.

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08-21-2011, 10:40 AM
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GKJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
I might put the Handzus/Calder trade in among the worst but there were the effects of the unknown with Primeau at the time.
Plus, no one got anything out of it. Handzus had a great start, but knew out his knee, and didn't seem prudent for the Blackhawks to match what the Kings gave Handzus in free agency.

On the flip side, you would have been off your rocker if you suggested that 4 years later Calder would be out of the league.

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08-21-2011, 10:40 AM
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I think the Sharp trade was the worst.

The argument could be made that the Flyers would have won the Stanley Cup 2 years ago if they had not made that deal.

Well, that and if we had a better goalie.

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08-21-2011, 11:25 AM
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I still think the Coburn deal was one of the biggest fleecing's ever. Even if Coburn were to stop playing right now, that deal was a steal.

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08-21-2011, 12:05 PM
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FlyersFan61290
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upshall trade? i guess not top 5 but top 10

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08-21-2011, 12:18 PM
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Even though his time here was short, picking up Leino for that ahl defenseman was a very nice steal..

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08-21-2011, 12:31 PM
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Might be adding the Carter and/or Richards deal(s) to this list in a few years

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08-21-2011, 12:35 PM
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Might be adding the Carter and/or Richards deal(s) to this list in a few years
As Good or Bad?

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08-21-2011, 12:38 PM
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As Good or Bad?
"Who the heck knows?"

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08-21-2011, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by RevUpThoseFlyers View Post
Might be adding the Carter and/or Richards deal(s) to this list in a few years
These deals will look like steals in a few years.

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08-21-2011, 02:24 PM
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Hockeypete49
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I still cannot get over the Oates trade. Especially when you factor how many games he played for us.

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08-21-2011, 02:34 PM
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phlocky
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1) Brad McCrimmon to Calgary for 1989 1st Round draft choice (later transferred to Toronto; Steve Bancroft) and 1988 3rd Round draft choice (Dominic Roussel)

2. Patrick Sharp and Eric Meloche to Chicago for Matt Ellison and a 2006 3rd Round draft choice (transferred to Montreal -- Ryan White)

3. Dave Poulin to Boston for Ken Linseman

4. Brian Propp to Boston for a 1990 2nd Round draft pick (Terran Sandwith)

5) Maxime Ouellet, 2002 1st Round draft pick (transferred to Dallas - Martin Vagner), 2002 2nd Round draft pick (Maxime Daigneault), and a 2002 3rd Round draft pick (Derek Krestanovich) to Washington for Adam Oates


Fist off, the Poulin and Propp trades weren't necessarily "bad" trades. The team wasn't able to get over the hump with them as our core, they were aging and a new direction needed to be taken. They held far more value to us just from them having been our core for so long then we could actually recieve in a trade. The team ended up "lost" for a number of years after they left but in all honestly, we would STILL have suffered many seasons of missing the playoffs even if they had stayed. Trading them didn't actuall make us better nor worse.

Now, regarding #1, though the return may not have been great, McCrimmon FORCED himself out of Philly on his own. When you had players like Barber and Clarke being "team players" and then McCrimmon wants "paid" while not even being close to the level of the guys taking less to be team players it was viewed as a slap in the face of the organization. I understand that many of the younger posters won't understand this philosophy but it was a very different time back in the 70's and 80's, players were NOT "me first" type guys. Hell, not even Poulin, Propp and Kerr were selfish "me first" type players. Brad was being dealt no matter what. We got what we could for him.

Regarding the Oates trade, EVERYONE at the time was *****ing and compaining aboue how we traded away our future "Bernie Parent". Well guess what, it was BERNIE himself who told Clarke to trade Max. Ouellet was uncoachable and would never be an NHL goalie, as per Parents own words. Also, the 2002 draft was a VERY weak draft and we did keep the early 1st rnd pick we had that year. Also, at that time Oates was still considered one of the best setup men in the NHL and we had injurues to two of our top 3 centers at the time of the trade (one was still out and one had just come back IIRC). We were starting to slide in the standings and we did this trade to sure-up the regular season and to add a piece that we hoped would put us over the top and win us the cup. Everyone likes to say "Oh, in hinde-sight it wasn't bad because none of the players/picks we gave up amounted to anyhting but at the time it was stupid". the TRUTH is that Bernie Parent KNEW that Max wouldn't cut it way back then and it was very well known at the time that outside of the top 10 or so in that years draft, the class was VERY weak in talent.



Now, regarding the "best" trades of all time, I can't see how you DON'T have the Lindros trade from Quebec as one of the best ever. Yes we gave up a lot to get him and they used those parts to add to a core that became perenial cup contenders but Lindros brought us back to the playoffs and it's because of him that we had the then new "CoreState/First Union Center build (I can't remember what it was named when it first opened but I personally liked it when it was the FU Center, lol). This team had been floundering at or near the bottom of the league for far too long and we NEEDED to change that "losing" mentality that was permiating all around us. Aquiring "the next one" did that for us instantly. IMO it was the second best trade we ever made just after the Parent trade.

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08-21-2011, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
I still cannot get over the Oates trade. Especially when you factor how many games he played for us.
yea. i remembered givin up the goalie but i forgot how many picks we threw away on that. jesus. That's during that time where he was doin that. Kevin Stevens anyone? In hindsight, Clarke sucked as a g.m. He was givin back a team in the mid 90's that had cup potential and squandered it. For all the people that hate Holmgren, we ARE in better hands right now.

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08-21-2011, 02:39 PM
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DeflatedFootball7
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Maxime Ouellet was supposed to be the franchise goaltender. We gave up too much but that's not bad considering him and Pelltier were uncoachable ****ups.

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08-21-2011, 02:56 PM
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phlocky
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For the record, while Clarke was our GM, we had a run where only the Wings and IIRC the Blues had a longer streak of making the playoffs. Regarding playoff performance, in the east only the Devils had a better winning percentage, wins and series wins than us. About the ONLY thing clarke should have done differently is that he probably should have given up Gagne for Luongo.


It was Bernie Parent who made the decission regarding Ouellet, not Clarke. Yes, at one time Ouellet was heralted as our future frnachise goalie but Bernie said otherwise and personally, I'll take his word over some writers opinions every time. Do any of you know who Parent said was the better goalie in our system and who had a very real chance to becoming a #1 goalie in the NHL? It was Nitty, drafted in the 6th rnd the year before Ouellet was drafted. Bernie knew that Nitty was the better of the two and we kept the right one.

Wow, just think about that, the best goalie to ever wear the O&B was right when evaluating our goaltender prospects. Who'd have thunk. What a dumb move it was to trade away a guy that Bernie said would never make it. I guess he was just plain lucky to get that one right.


BTW, this was in no means directed at anyone in particular, I was just poinitng out that even at the time, it was not a dumb move. It was made with the best information possible and that in all honestly, how could you possibly doubt Bernie Parent if he says "this guy will never amount to anything, don't believe the hype".

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08-21-2011, 03:42 PM
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GKJ
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The Oates trade was pure panic, even if it was trading picks in a weak draft. That was bad for us, but for the Capitals to essentially get nothing out it...might have been worse considering they did nothing with it.

It was a big shock at the time, but the signals were there that Ouellet was going to amount to nothing special. Niittymaki caught up to him, and the Caps took another goalie in the 2nd round of that draft (not that that matters as much now, but looking from afar back then it seemed strange).

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08-21-2011, 04:57 PM
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MiamiScreamingEagles
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Trades can't and shouldn't be analyzed solely in terms of players dealt and players acquired. There are complementary elements to trades. A prime example is the Lindros trade to Quebec. If the franchise hadn't relocated, Patrick Roy very likely doesn't get sent to the Nordiques. Another is the Pete Peeters/Brad McCrimmon trade (short term good for Boston, long term good for the Flyers) as both teams traded from strengths for weaknesses.

What designates the McCrimmon trade to Calgary among the most damaging was that the players who were supposed replacements didn't elevate their games. Kjell Samuelsson responded but Kerry Huffman, J.J. Daigneault and Mike Stothers didn't. And for a team that was one game away from winning the Championship, the loss of McCrimmon was substantial enough but exacerbated by the failings of the primary replacements. McCrimmon did make his own bed but Clarke has admitted it was among his worst. Also, McCrimmon helped win the Cup in 1989.

The Propp/Poulin deals: Boston was established as a leading Cup contender. The Flyers had internal conflicts as to the direction of the club; Jay Snider wanted his own stamp. Clarke did the two a favor, two loyal soldiers who were given an opportunity to win a Cup. Clarke shouldn't be overly criticized for these trades but the returns were insignificant and Linseman, the second time around, was abysmal.


Last edited by MiamiScreamingEagles: 08-21-2011 at 05:16 PM. Reason: Typo
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08-21-2011, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
The Oates trade was pure panic, even if it was trading picks in a weak draft. That was bad for us, but for the Capitals to essentially get nothing out it...might have been worse considering they did nothing with it.

It was a big shock at the time, but the signals were there that Ouellet was going to amount to nothing special. Niittymaki caught up to him, and the Caps took another goalie in the 2nd round of that draft (not that that matters as much now, but looking from afar back then it seemed strange).
Technically that's not true, I believe one of the picks that they acquired was used to move up and pick Alexander Semin, so they at least got something out of it.

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08-21-2011, 05:43 PM
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Where's Gagne for a pile of ****?

Quote:
However. McCrimmon and Bob Clarke did not like one another on a personal level. Clarke told Jay Greenberg in Full Spectrum that his differences with McCrimmon went back to when Clarke was still an active player and McCrimmon came over to the Flyers in a trade with Boston. Clarke told Greenberg, "He was a big boozer who I didn't think cared."
Hmmmmmmmmm Flyers get fleeced in a trade sending a star player for prospects/picks, and the trade had some personal issues revolving around booze...

Oh wait there's more...

Quote:
Apart from Clarke himself, Poulin was the best captain in franchise history. The series of panicky, short-sighted decisions that led to the "C" being taken away from Poulin and, midway through the 1989-90 season, being traded to Boston remain inexplicable to this day.


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08-21-2011, 05:48 PM
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Terence Peterman
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Where's Gagne for a pile of ****?
We'll have to wait for next year's list, as it's still riding on the durable hips of Matt Walker and onto the "Win" column.

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08-21-2011, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 10KeithLeClair25 View Post
Where's Gagne for a pile of ****?



Hmmmmmmmmm Flyers get fleeced in a trade sending a star player for prospects/picks, and the trade had some personal issues revolving around booze...

Oh wait there's more...
Seeing as we got meszaros, id say we came out on top of tb that offseason...

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08-21-2011, 05:58 PM
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Bryz4shiz
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Seeing as we got meszaros, id say we came out on top of tb that offseason...
That was a different trade and totally irrelevant to the Gagne trade

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08-21-2011, 06:09 PM
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MiamiScreamingEagles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10KeithLeClair25 View Post
Hmmmmmmmmm Flyers get fleeced in a trade sending a star player for prospects/picks, and the trade had some personal issues revolving around booze...
The thing about McCrimmon was that he was a holdout. Two straight seasons, there were issues. Emotions got the better part of Clarke. No doubt. But McCrimmon's agent requested a trade entering the 1986-87 season and held out his client. Clarke made an offer to give McCrimmon close to the same money Mark Howe earned and the agent refused the offer; his client was under contract, too. That led to a suspension. McCrimmon missed almost the entire first month of the season. Clarke had an offer to trade McCrimmon straight up to Quebec for Randy Moller (now the Panthers' radio PxP guy). Finally, they agreed on a one-year pact. The following off-season was a near-repeat and Clarke made the decision to trade in late summer.

Holmgren decided to remove the "C" from Poulin and he regretted it. Ron Sutter, as Captain, paled in comparison to Poulin.

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08-21-2011, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
The thing about McCrimmon was that he was a holdout. Two straight seasons, there were issues. Emotions got the better part of Clarke. No doubt. But McCrimmon's agent requested a trade entering the 1986-87 season and held out his client. Clarke made an offer to give McCrimmon close to the same money Mark Howe earned and the agent refused the offer; his client was under contract, too. That led to a suspension. McCrimmon missed almost the entire first month of the season. Clarke had an offer to trade McCrimmon straight up to Quebec for Randy Moller (now the Panthers' radio PxP guy). Finally, they agreed on a one-year pact. The following off-season was a near-repeat and Clarke made the decision to trade in late summer.

Holmgren decided to remove the "C" from Poulin and he regretted it. Ron Sutter, as Captain, paled in comparison to Poulin.

The gap between the Flyers and McCrimmon was a mere $25,000 -- Clarke made one offer and stuck with it, then lowered the offer as the acrimony between himself and Pinder grew.

Hextall was also a holdout at one point (ditto LeClair years later). Clarke was more flexible in those cases because 1) He valued those players more than he valued McCrimmon, 2) He had personal differences with McCrimmon and 3) He got along better with Mountain and Gross than he did with Pinder.

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