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Old
08-22-2011, 10:29 AM
  #101
phlocky
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Originally Posted by ChumpyG View Post
This is great discussion about Scott Hannan.

I jumped into the last page here and until I got to your post I forgot that this was suppose to be a thread about Hannan, not our goal tending situation.

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08-22-2011, 10:55 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You say this like some of us didn't predict what was going to happen with the goalies months ago.

I mean, seriously, this post would be comedic genius if it wasn't so pathetic in it's bitterness.

Just to clarify things, from what I remember NOBODY predicted that Vokoun could be had for so little. There were 2 high end UFA goalies that were going to be available, Bryz and Vokoun. The predictions were that Bryz would command top dollar and a longer term while Vokoun had less years in him and would command a bit less for fewer years. Expectations were that Bryz would get somewhere in the 6-6.5 mil range for 6-8 years and Vokoun in the 3.5-5 mil ranger for 3-4 years.

Yes, many of us felt that it was more prudent to sign Vokoun for 3-4 years while we developed Bob but what if Bob just doesn't pan out? What would we be left with? 2 manybe 3 good years of Vokoun and then nothing again???

Take Vokoun out of the equation for a second and just look at the Bryz signing by itself. Dollar wise we got him for less than what was being predicted (and actually reported what he was asking for) but it's a contract that is longer than his probable effective playing time. No matter what, barring serious injuries, we have a top quality goalie in net for the next 6 years minimum. He's paid right about where he should be with regards to the other top end goalies in the league and if you consider the percentage of the teams cap hit at the time of their signing, he was signed to a bargin contract.

Regarding Holmgren and his "panic moves", that's just not true (I can't believe I'm actually going to be defending this dickbag but here goes). The flyers actually have a plan and they AGGRESSIVELY go after said plan. When have we EVER just passively sat by and "let things happen and play out"???? Expecting us to sit on our hands and then be forced to pick up the leftover scraps from the junk pile or be left with nothing at all is a losers mentality. Yeah in hindsight it would have been better to wait on Vokoun and Hannan but what if we'd waited and both were gobbled up early on and we were facing having Bob and Leighton as our goalies and Bart and Gustafsson as our bottom pairing???


The Bryz siging was not a bad signing, it just looks bad when put along side the Vokoun siging. Hell, if you put Miller, Lundqvist and Luongo's contracts next to Vokouns they ALL look like bad signings.

Lets move on to other things like how the hell is this team going to ever win the cup??? I mena we took about 5 steps backwards so that IN THE FUTURE we could take 10 steps forward but by the time all the guys we recently aquired are ready to push us towards a cup Briere, Timonen and Pronger will either be gone or a shadow of whom they are today. We'll need 2 new top end dmen if we plan on ever winning a cup IMO.

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08-22-2011, 11:08 AM
  #103
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Vokoun would have gotten more if he had anyone bidding for him, but when we went for Bryz and TB kept Roloson, he was screwed. Supply and demand in action. Easily predictable given the variables. So, predicting that you could get Vokoun on a bigger contract was based on variables that went against Vokoun with a hurry. The predictions weren't wrong, the assumption that TB would be in on him was wrong and that made him VERY cheap.

BTW, we are paying Bryz a massive some of money on a ridiculously long contract... So not sure how that ends up as a fiscal deal. Dude is making 24.5M the next three years.

As to whether Holmgren panics. He does every damn year. You can call that pursuing an aggressive agenda all you want, but it's a byproduct of their abject fear of playing the market. Thus, the observation that the Bryz signing isn't bad, it just looks bad because of the Vokoun signing is kind of hilarious. That's like saying it isn't bad, it just is bad when you compare it to reality.

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08-22-2011, 11:09 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Regarding Holmgren and his "panic moves", that's just not true (I can't believe I'm actually going to be defending this dickbag but here goes). The flyers actually have a plan and they AGGRESSIVELY go after said plan. When have we EVER just passively sat by and "let things happen and play out"???? Expecting us to sit on our hands and then be forced to pick up the leftover scraps from the junk pile or be left with nothing at all is a losers mentality. Yeah in hindsight it would have been better to wait on Vokoun and Hannan but what if we'd waited and both were gobbled up early on and we were facing having Bob and Leighton as our goalies and Bart and Gustafsson as our bottom pairing???
I don't think that most people who have a problem with Homer's "panic moves" does so because the Flyers don't get who they want. As for them not having a plan, it just feels as if each summer is too much of a reaction to whatever worked for the team winning the cup the previous season. It feels a bit as if we're lacking a real plan, or philosophy or whatever one wishes to call it, on how to build our squad.

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08-22-2011, 11:17 AM
  #105
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When we were making our bed with Bryz, there were 3 teams in persuit of 2 top end UFA goalies, us, the Caps and the Avs. There was also the possibility that either or both could head over to Russia to play if they didn't get what they wanted here in the NHL. It would have been foolish to sit back and take a "wait and see" approach.

Again, this is a subject that is behind us now, it over and done with, lets look at what's staring us straight in the face and is ready to hit us head on like a Mac truck, the fact that by the time these new guys are REALLY contributing our defense with be crap and Bryz's game may have begun to slide. THIS is the real concern for me. We damned well better figure out a way to get one of Suter or Weber here by next season or we are probably pretty well screwed.

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08-22-2011, 11:23 AM
  #106
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Let's also not forget that once Bryz's game begins to slide, he'll still have a hefty cap hit (unless the cap does indeed continue rising forever), and for most of his deal he makes enough money to keep him from really considering going to Russia. He also has that NMC thingy.

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08-22-2011, 11:56 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You say this like some of us didn't predict what was going to happen with the goalies months ago.

I mean, seriously, this post would be comedic genius if it wasn't so pathetic in it's bitterness.
go find me a single shred of evidence where you predicted that vokoun would get under 3 million. Any shred of evidence at all.

I love the fact you hide on another board to insult me too lol.

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08-22-2011, 01:11 PM
  #108
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WE could have never had vokoun at that price...that's what everyone is failing to understand (or admit)

its textbook prisoner's dilemma. You can look at the green grass, but if we had vokoun he'd be 3-4.5 mil (like he will get next year)

im sick of plugging holes with goalies for 2-3 year bouts, now we have a legit #1 for 6 years. the last two years of that contract will be in russia, I'd stake a bunch in that.

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08-22-2011, 01:15 PM
  #109
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I'd have been far more comfortable with Vokoun for 2-3 years at 4 mil than with Bryz signed forever and at that cap hit. He likely won't have any real temptation to return to Russia until he's 38 or 39. That's pretty old. It also assumes that a Russian team would be willing to pay him more.

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08-22-2011, 01:28 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
go find me a single shred of evidence where you predicted that vokoun would get under 3 million. Any shred of evidence at all.

I love the fact you hide on another board to insult me too lol.
I've been pretty clear in my disdain for the intellectual capacity of your posts here... for example, a couple weeks ago when I noted that you try so desperately hard to have witty snark in your posts but it ends up just being... drivel.

For MONTHS I stated that Bryz would get a monster contract, and Vokoun would come in far below that due to his age. MONTHS. The fact that you lack the cognitive capacity to remember last spring is your problem, not mine. In fact, it was for that very reason that I advocated, again, for months, going after Vokoun as opposed to Bryz.

So, why don't you go find a single shred of evidence of me NOT making those arguments, because all the regulars around here who care are probably well aware of the veracity of my claim... and the petulant ignorance of yours.

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08-22-2011, 01:30 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
WE could have never had vokoun at that price...that's what everyone is failing to understand (or admit)

its textbook prisoner's dilemma. You can look at the green grass, but if we had vokoun he'd be 3-4.5 mil (like he will get next year)

im sick of plugging holes with goalies for 2-3 year bouts, now we have a legit #1 for 6 years. the last two years of that contract will be in russia, I'd stake a bunch in that.
No one is disputing that claim... but way to tear the crap out of that paper tiger you set up for yourself. Brilliant work, really.

If Vokoun was signed prior to the market being gutted by the Caps/Avs trade and the relatively remarkable re-signing of Roloson... Vokoun would have gotten more. As noted, it's supply and demand in action.

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08-22-2011, 01:31 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
When we were making our bed with Bryz, there were 3 teams in persuit of 2 top end UFA goalies, us, the Caps and the Avs. There was also the possibility that either or both could head over to Russia to play if they didn't get what they wanted here in the NHL. It would have been foolish to sit back and take a "wait and see" approach.

Again, this is a subject that is behind us now, it over and done with, lets look at what's staring us straight in the face and is ready to hit us head on like a Mac truck, the fact that by the time these new guys are REALLY contributing our defense with be crap and Bryz's game may have begun to slide. THIS is the real concern for me. We damned well better figure out a way to get one of Suter or Weber here by next season or we are probably pretty well screwed.
Actually, it was 2... as the Caps probably aren't going after Vokoun without the completely ridiculous trade with the Avs.

And, no, this subject isn't behind us. The man that made these decisions still runs the team, and it's these types of decisions that have REGULARLY steered the team over the past few years.

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08-22-2011, 01:43 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No one is disputing that claim... but way to tear the crap out of that paper tiger you set up for yourself. Brilliant work, really.

If Vokoun was signed prior to the market being gutted by the Caps/Avs trade and the relatively remarkable re-signing of Roloson... Vokoun would have gotten more. As noted, it's supply and demand in action.
So then what is your claim? you wanted vokoun at 3-4? Thats all you said in the spring in terms of predictions, so dont take too much credit.

id rather have
bryz 5.5 for 8
than
vokoun 4 for 4

(especially given our goalie history, and the reliance that the vokoun-plan puts on BOB)

honestly, what are you even arguing? That between those two options homer is "dumb" for not giving vokoun 4mil for 4 years?

i dont see how you can be so overconfident that you think thats a fair analysis before either goalie plays a game for their new team...

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08-22-2011, 01:45 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
So then what is your claim? you wanted vokoun at 3-4? Thats all you said in the spring in terms of predictions, so dont take too much credit.

id rather have
bryz 5.5 for 8
than
vokoun 4 for 4

(especially given our goalie history, and the reliance that the vokoun-plan puts on BOB)

honestly, what are you even arguing? That between those two options homer is "dumb" for not giving vokoun 4mil for 4 years?

i dont see how you can be so overconfident that you think thats a fair analysis before either goalie plays a game for their new team...
Bryz's contract is 9 years.

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08-22-2011, 01:52 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
So then what is your claim? you wanted vokoun at 3-4? Thats all you said in the spring in terms of predictions, so dont take too much credit.

id rather have
bryz 5.5 for 8
than
vokoun 4 for 4

(especially given our goalie history, and the reliance that the vokoun-plan puts on BOB)

honestly, what are you even arguing? That between those two options homer is "dumb" for not giving vokoun 4mil for 4 years?

i dont see how you can be so overconfident that you think thats a fair analysis before either goalie plays a game for their new team...
You don't think it's fair to analyze contracts that were given out and their long-term ramifications for teams right now? Really?

And, I love how your comparable is easily the apex of what Vokoun could have conceivably gotten (and, clearly, never was going to get given that TB opted to re-sign Roloson as opposed to kicking Vokoun's can). Vokoun needed to get himself signed BEFORE Bryz signed to maximize his contract, we killed any chance of that by trading for Bryz's rights and then Vokoun was stuck out in the cold.

The real point, however, is that it was easily predicted (and not just by me) that Vokoun was going to get a far more modest contract, both in term and money... and that was something of great value to the Flyers given everything else. Spongolium's ridiculous assertion that this is all hindsight complaints is laughable largely because he was here when all these conversations were going on, and is well aware (should be) that many folks predicted Vokoun to come in a far lower contract. The "zing" that he's attempting ("you didn't predict he'd be that cheap!" the petulant child cried out) is comical because the predictions were based on the following assumptions.

1) Supply and demand drives markets.
2) Vokoun was going to be in demand ahead of (Roloson, etc.)

The 2nd assumption is where the "failure" occurred, not in the former. Of course, I think TB may come to regret not going after Vokoun after they have to deal with the Caps in their division backstopped by him this year... but we'll see. However, if you'd told me (or any of the others) in the spring that TB and the Avs wouldn't be in on Bryz or Vokoun, it would have been clear that Vokoun was going to get the shaft.

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08-22-2011, 01:58 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I've been pretty clear in my disdain for the intellectual capacity of your posts here... for example, a couple weeks ago when I noted that you try so desperately hard to have witty snark in your posts but it ends up just being... drivel.

For MONTHS I stated that Bryz would get a monster contract, and Vokoun would come in far below that due to his age. MONTHS. The fact that you lack the cognitive capacity to remember last spring is your problem, not mine. In fact, it was for that very reason that I advocated, again, for months, going after Vokoun as opposed to Bryz.

So, why don't you go find a single shred of evidence of me NOT making those arguments, because all the regulars around here who care are probably well aware of the veracity of my claim... and the petulant ignorance of yours.
You try so hard around here to be classed as an intellectual lol. Just a question, who are you trying to prove it too?

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08-22-2011, 02:00 PM
  #117
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Geez, let's tone it down with the personal shots. We're all civilized here.

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08-22-2011, 02:12 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Geez, let's tone it down with the personal shots. We're all civilized here.

LOL we are? It would be the best scenario. However, people take this stuff way too seriously and have so much to prove. Also, it is quite rare that anyone changes their opinion even a little because people are not open-minded. People on this board are way too concentrated on pounding their chest and showing off their machismo of who's the smartest or who's right. I will refrain from mentioning any names.

I try to keep an open-mind and always understand that nearly everything is my opinion. Us Flyers fans need to enjoy the ride while discussing topics instead of trying to out-class each other! End rant...

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08-22-2011, 02:24 PM
  #119
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That was quite nicely put. You should see the trade and politics forum. Some people take things waaaaaay to seriously there.

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08-22-2011, 02:36 PM
  #120
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You try so hard around here to be classed as an intellectual lol. Just a question, who are you trying to prove it too?
No one here.

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08-22-2011, 02:44 PM
  #121
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Maybe this has already been said, but if the Flyers signed Vokoun for, let's say between and $3-$4 million (which some of you KNOW would have happened), then wouldn't Bryz have gotten less because we are the only team so stupid to give him that much? Then everyone would be saying, OMG Bryz is a better goalie and the Flyers could have had him for less the Flyers are so stupid I should be GM because I won 12 straight Stanley Cups on NHL 11.

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08-22-2011, 02:44 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You don't think it's fair to analyze contracts that were given out and their long-term ramifications for teams right now? Really?
Oh well when you phrase it that way...




NO
it is not fair to call homer a moron when the two options aren't so far apart.

Quote:
And, I love how your comparable is easily the apex of what Vokoun could have conceivably gotten (and, clearly, never was going to get given that TB opted to re-sign Roloson as opposed to kicking Vokoun's can). Vokoun needed to get himself signed BEFORE Bryz signed to maximize his contract, we killed any chance of that by trading for Bryz's rights and then Vokoun was stuck out in the cold.

The real point, however, is that it was easily predicted (and not just by me) that Vokoun was going to get a far more modest contract, both in term and money...
Vokoun at 1 year
a) doesn't help us.
b) wasn't available to us.

Also, he will sign with a club next year, probably at 4 for 4...

"Predicted" here first.

Quote:
and that was something of great value to the Flyers given everything else. Spongolium's ridiculous assertion that this is all hindsight complaints is laughable largely because he was here when all these conversations were going on, and is well aware (should be) that many folks predicted Vokoun to come in a far lower contract. The "zing" that he's attempting ("you didn't predict he'd be that cheap!" the petulant child cried out) is comical because the predictions were based on the following assumptions.

1) Supply and demand drives markets.
2) Vokoun was going to be in demand ahead of (Roloson, etc.)

The 2nd assumption is where the "failure" occurred, not in the former. Of course, I think TB may come to regret not going after Vokoun after they have to deal with the Caps in their division backstopped by him this year... but we'll see. However, if you'd told me (or any of the others) in the spring that TB and the Avs wouldn't be in on Bryz or Vokoun, it would have been clear that Vokoun was going to get the shaft.
Guess what, we ARE the demand, so that price was never offered to us, and in no situation would be available to us.

Homer was told to get a real goalie, and got the best UFA goalie we've seen in some time. Some people just can't accept a difference in opinion.

Going for Bryz is a totally viable opinion, and was executed well. The organization just doesn't want to keep rolling the dice in net,(who can blame them?) that's something you will have to swallow.

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08-22-2011, 02:47 PM
  #123
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Uh, the two options were pretty far apart. Vokoun for 3-4 mil on a short contract is very different from Bryz at 5.6 until he's 40.

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08-22-2011, 02:53 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Vokoun at 1 year
a) doesn't help us.
b) wasn't available to us.
a) It helps us for 1 year... and you can also offer him more years if you like. You don't think Vokoun would have liked a bit more certainty (and guaranteed money)? Very much doubt Vokoun is thrilled with the contract he signed.

b) He was an UFA, he was available to anyone.

It would help if your arguments began from a departure point that existed within the realm of logic.

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08-22-2011, 02:54 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Maybe this has already been said, but if the Flyers signed Vokoun for, let's say between and $3-$4 million (which some of you KNOW would have happened), then wouldn't Bryz have gotten less because we are the only team so stupid to give him that much? Then everyone would be saying, OMG Bryz is a better goalie and the Flyers could have had him for less the Flyers are so stupid I should be GM because I won 12 straight Stanley Cups on NHL 11.
Theoretically, but he still would have gotten more than Vokoun... he also most likely would have gotten many more years, which was actually the more important arithmetic in my mind. Since, ya know, I liked a LOT of what I saw from Bob last year.

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